Framing for 2.40 in 35 not S35

[Rolfe Klement]

For a Project destined for PAL or HD is it possible to get an anamorphic frame (2.40) from a 35 gate not a S35 gate ?

 

I want to use my 2C and I have a 2.40 ground glass - and someone wants to create the anamorphic frame look for a MV. My minor worry is what happens in TK.

 

The reason being when I have been in TK and looking at footage shot on my 2C - when we move Left there is a definate space of unexposed film - which makes me think the 2C shoots 35 and not S35 - but I have heard different things

 

So 2 questions really - who is 100% sure of the gate on 2C (I have measured them with a calipers and it is just shy of S35

And can we get a higher quality transfer by framing with a 2.40 ground glass and using which gate in TK - when shooting 35mm

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> For a Project destined for PAL or HD is it possible to get an anamorphic frame

> (2.40) from a 35 gate not a S35 gate ?

 

Yes, that would be the standard way of doing it - shoot the normal frame area with 2:1 anamorphic lenses. That's how it's traditionally been done.

 

If you shoot super-35 with spherical lenses and just extract the scope frame later, you won't get the anamorphic lens flares you want because you won't be using anamorphic lenses!

 

Phil

[John Pytlak RIP]

Normally a gate used for "Super-35" has the image centered on the centerline of the film, and a camera aperture width of 0.980 inches. Normally, an image 0.945 inches wide is "extracted" during optical printing or in making a transfer or DI.

[Michael Nash]

The reason being when I have been in TK and looking at footage shot on my 2C - when we move Left there is a definate space of unexposed film - which makes me think the 2C shoots 35 and not S35 - but I have heard different things

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If there is an area of unexposed film (i.e. black) on one side between the image and the sprocket holes, that sounds like your camera has an Academy aperture (gate) installed, and not a "Full aperture" (super 35) gate. It's possible the gate could also be an anamorphic gate, which is the same width and centering as Academy, but slightly taller. I'm not that familiar with the 2C, so I don't know offhand which gate came standard with that camera and what modifications may be floating around out there.

 

If you want to use anamorphic lenses and an anamorphic ground glass, you really need an anamorphic gate. Standard dimensions for anamorphic make the image slightly taller than academy, even though the centering and width are the same. You should be able to check by popping the lens off and looking into the lens port. inch the movement forward slowly, comparing the anamorphic GG framelines with the top and bottom of the gate. If the gate crops the framed image at all, you'll have to get an anamorphic gate.

 

If you want to shoot Super 35 and spherical lenses, you'll need to get a "Full aperture" gate, have the lens mount re-centered, and get the appropriate ground glass. But in a pinch you could shoot with the lens mount in the "old" centering; it's just that zoom lenses won't track on center. Technically you're shooting off-centered through the glass, but with many lenses this isn't really an issue.

 

Regarding the quality of the TK, naturally the larger the negative area (anamorphic being the largest) the higher the resolution of the film. But this is tempered by the lenses you use, and the optical characteristics you want (or are forced into, depending on light levels and such).

[Rolfe Klement]

I should have mentioned I want to shoot with standard spherical lenses. Remember this is for broadcast only not filmout.

 

So academy gate, 35mm, standard lens, 2.40 ground glass - am I going to get weirdness in TK - like black vertical edges - then we have to TK zoom in ... then we loose the framing from the groundglass.

 

So a 720 x 576 4.3 or 16.9 Letterbox 2.40

 

My main concern is the framing during shooting. Maybe use a forced top line marker shot for each roll then reference it in TK

 

Very unorthodox - I know

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Patrick Neary]

If your 2c has an academy gate (it probably does) then just set up your 2.40 markings on your groundglass and shoot a framing chart, lined up with those markings, at the head of your first roll (you only need to shoot it once) and your telecine wiz will frame everything for that. It won't change roll-to-roll.

 

As long as your groundglass is also academy (but with your 2.40 markings) it will work great.

[Rolfe Klement]

I will give it a go

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Michael Nash]

I should have mentioned I want to shoot with standard spherical lenses. Remember this is for broadcast only not filmout.

 

So academy gate, 35mm, standard lens, 2.40 ground glass - am I going to get weirdness in TK - like black vertical edges - then we have to TK zoom in ... then we loose the framing from the groundglass.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well it's not unheard of to use anamorphic lenses for a video-only finish, but fair enough.

 

But I'm still confused about your groundglass -- is it a 2.40 "unsqueezed" rectangle for a super 35 gate, or 2.40 frame lines within the Academy aperture? The latter is pretty rare. I'm not sure which you mean by "2.40 ground glass" -- that could mean unsqueezed within Super 35, unsqueezed within Academy (rare), or squeezed anamorphic.

 

If it's 2.40 for Super35 (measuring 24x10mm, or .945x.394 inches), then the frame lines will extend beyond the exposed image if you're using an Academy gate. One side of the "framed" image will come out black, and in the viewfinder you won't be able to see the proper edge of frame.

 

You could always custom mask a groundglass to conform to the desired aspect ratio within the gate you have.

[Dan Goulder]

For a Project destined for PAL or HD is it possible to get an anamorphic frame (2.40) from a 35 gate not a S35 gate ?

 

I want to use my 2C and I have a 2.40 ground glass - and someone wants to create the anamorphic frame look for a MV. My minor worry is what happens in TK.

 

The reason being when I have been in TK and looking at footage shot on my 2C - when we move Left there is a definate space of unexposed film - which makes me think the 2C shoots 35 and not S35 - but I have heard different things

 

So 2 questions really - who is 100% sure of the gate on 2C (I have measured them with a calipers and it is just shy of S35

And can we get a higher quality transfer by framing with a 2.40 ground glass and using which gate in TK - when shooting 35mm

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It sounds like you're planning on shooting in "rich man's" Techniscope. In telecine, you'll just be cropping scope framing out of a full 4-perf frame, in a similar fashion to what's done to create super 35 scope. It'll work out just fine, especially with the newer film stocks.

[Rolfe Klement]

The groundglass is weird - Otto Nemenz altered mine so it can hold S35 glass

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Michael Nash]

The groundglass is weird - Otto Nemenz altered mine so it can hold S35 glass

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So does that mean your groundglass has frame markings for super35, but your camera actually has an Academy gate? If that's the case, then you'll get that "telecine weirdness" that you described where the width of the VF image won't match the exposed film.

[Rolfe Klement]

exactly. And it forces me to really have to think about GG and framing each time :)

 

thanks

 

Rolfe