lens education

[Rachel Oliver]

Hi;

 

Any films I've shot for other people I've asked to be credited as "Lighting and Camera operator."

I've been shooting films on and off for eight years and still don't have the nerve to call myself a DP because I know some very good one's and I'm not the same animal. Infact having worked alongside some very talented DP's I'd feel darn right disrespectful using their hard earned title for myself just because I could....

 

Olly

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

Infact having worked alongside some very talented DP's I'd feel darn right disrespectful using their hard earned title for myself just because I could....

If you don't want to call yourself a DP because others that do are better than yourself, then fine that's your choice.

 

I on the other hand, think I'm good enough to work on some fairly upscale stuff. Because I'm arrogant. And so far in being arrogant, it's got me many more jobs. I call myself a DP because that's now what I do. Not because I'm great or whatever.

 

Thing is, you realise those DP's you have worked with didn't work hard to earn that title. They worked hard at polishing their skills, making themselvs great DP's. I bet when they were starting out they called themselves DP's. And it probably got them into the position they are in now.

 

If I was a producer and I was considering hiring you, but then found out that you only call yourself a camera operator instead of a DP because you say your not that great, then I'd start to wonder why, and start re-considering hiring you.

 

If a producer was considering to hire me, I'd say I'm well experienced and I can do it no problem. And if he started asking me how I compared to some of the other DP's out there I'd say I'm better. Because I'm arrogant. But that's the kind of attitude that get's you to the top.

Edited March 20, 2005 by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

[Andre Lim]

I know that the next person in line of the crew gets the position of DP. That's not the point I was trying to make, that is irrelevant. It was saracasm to prove a point. You just didn't get that. Forget it.

 

Aggrogance or confidence I think would be a better word will get you jobs. Of course when you are looking for a position as a DP, you should refer to yourself as a DP and not a camera op etc. But in the end what you say you can do and what you deliver are 2 different things.

 

I'm not saying that your good or bad, I've never seen your work, this is for everyone. If you say you are great and you don't deliver, then you can be sure you'll never get a job w/ them again. Good news travels fast, worse news travels faster. With arrogance should come great knowledge and experience.

[Rachel Oliver]

Hi;

 

your self confessed arrogance will become a major problem for hiring producers I guarantee. I don't really believe that your all that ready to work on "Upscale stuff" yet Daniel, from reading your many posts it's clear to me you are very much a student on the fringes of a film understanding and have very little actual film making experience. "those DP's" I worked with worked their way up through the ranks as assistants, focus pullers and eventually got breaks DP'ing on small projects which then lead to bigger projects if they're any good and VERY lucky, this process takes years, to get to their skill level. Let me guess, you have taken some 35mm stills and you have gotten a smidgen of "delayed payement" jobs with a little miniDV cam for some naff TV that might one day be broadcast (but probably wont). With your totally over inflated opinion of yourself you'd better pray all those producers that are gonna hire you for "Upscale stuff" are full of BS too! Then you can all make crap together and pretend it's great.

 

Olly

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> I've been shooting films on and off for eight years and still don't have the nerve

> to call myself a DP because I know some very good one's and I'm not the same

> animal.

 

My feelings precisely.

 

I do think there's a bit of a nomenclature problem though, particularly with video. Someone could become a talented and experienced video "DP" and those skills wouldn't really be represented by a phrase like "lighting cameraman", which to me could be someone who lights news sets.

 

And furthermore, I agree that arrogance in this area is despicable, but I also agree that it gets you jobs.

 

Phil

[Andre Lim]

Some times you just have to let people go through the process to realize their dreams might not always come true, especially in such a competitive industry like this. No matter what you say and suggest, some people will not or can not distinguish fact from fiction. Because their emotions and stubborness might be a bit too high. Of course you want everyone to make it, especially because I consider people in the cinematography side of the business more friendly towards each other. Unlike directors. You wish everyone for the best, but some times you have to step back let them fall and pick them back up.

 

I see that you were born in 1988 which means you are 17, not even done with high school. I don't know how much experience you've had or what you're capable of doing, but on a shoot it comes down to experience. I can almost 100% guarantee you that finding a job as a DP at the age of 17 will be nearly impossible. People I see that fail the most are the people that expect to be at the top too fast. They can't get to where they want and quit. I just think that you're expecting too much, too fast. Maybe you get extremely lucky, meet the right people and have the artistic mind of Conrad Hall. I don't know. Just remember people don't like working with arrogant people. Being confident and being arrogant are 2 different things. I wish you choose to be the first one.

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

your self confessed arrogance will become a major problem for hiring producers I guarantee.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't be as big a problem as saying I'm not any good.

 

I don't really believe that your all that ready to work on "Upscale stuff" yet Daniel, from reading your many posts it's clear to me you are very much a student on the fringes of a film understanding and have very little actual film making experience.

Well for a start you don't actually know me or, seen any of my work. Secondly, looking at someone?s posts doesn't mean anything. What are you saying, that just because I don't have as much knowledge on gear as other DP's, that I'm a bad DP?

 

I can frame, work out perfectly what aperture I want, know exactly what position to shoot from e.t.c. And I also know how to use the cameras. That's enough to make a great film. A film that could hit cinemas in fact. Perhaps not the latest SFX blockbuster movie, but a film that uses conventional methods.

 

"those DP's" I worked with worked their way up through the ranks as assistants, focus pullers and eventually got breaks DP'ing on small projects which then lead to bigger projects if they're any good and VERY lucky, this process takes years, to get to their skill level.

Well, I have decided to not go with conformity and work my way up the ranks. Because that's what EVERYONE does. And just see how many people make it. Most people seem to do the same thing... Make shorts when they are young, go to film school, and then try and dig out some jobs blah blah blah. But no, not me. I decided to go for it head on and take on DP. I am confident I can do it. And from shooting this series I have now proved it. If my work wasn't up to TV standard then the producer would have fired my ass already. He's already fired quite a few people for their work, and they were experienced professionals!

 

you have gotten a smidgen of "delayed payement" jobs

Err, roughly £1500 per episode actually. Roughly $2900.

 

With your totally over inflated opinion of yourself you'd better pray all those producers that are gonna hire you for "Upscale stuff" are full of BS too! Then you can all make crap together and pretend it's great.

My "over inflated" opinion is based on all the work I have done. Which has been broadcast quality, and that's coming from Damion Reo, a very experienced director.

 

At the moment my biggest downfall is that I don't have enough credentials. So right now yes, I have to give my producers a load of bull. Which I did, and it got me shooting this TV series.

[Rachel Oliver]

Hi,

 

> I've been shooting films on and off for eight years and still don't have the nerve

> to call myself a DP because I know some very good one's and I'm not the same

> animal.

 

My feelings precisely.

 

I do think there's a bit of a nomenclature problem though, particularly with video. Someone could become a talented and experienced video "DP" and those skills wouldn't really be represented by a phrase like "lighting cameraman", which to me could be someone who lights news sets.

 

And furthermore, I agree that arrogance in this area is despicable, but I also agree that it gets you jobs.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi;

 

That's true Phil, It can get you jobs but only for as long as you can live up to your projected ability, success breeds success where as arrogance and inability well just, well.... Hows LA?

 

Olly

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

I see that you were born in 1988 which means you are 17, not even done with high school. I can almost 100% guarantee you that finding a job as a DP at the age of 17 will be nearly impossible.

Well, my birthdays in July so I am actually still 16. That's true about not getting work because of my age, but on the project I'm currently doing I actually had to lie about my age. (They think I'm 19)

 

But the best thing I find is to start as early as possible. By the time I'm 40 or whatever I'll have a ton of experience, and credentials.

 

I mean generally I'm not that arrogant. Or at least not anymore. But I'm confident that I can do upscale work.

 

If someone offered me a position to shoot a HD feature, I'd go for it. I know I could make it work. But if I turned it down, that's just one opportunity missed.

[Rachel Oliver]

I can frame, work out perfectly what aperture I want, know exactly what position to shoot from e.t.c. And I also know how to use the cameras. That's enough to make a great film. A film that could hit cinemas in fact. Perhaps not the latest SFX blockbuster movie, but a film that uses conventional methods.

Well, I have decided to not go with conformity and work my way up the ranks. Because that's what EVERYONE does. And just see how many people make it. Most people seem to do the same thing... Make shorts when they are young, go to film school, and then try and dig out some jobs blah blah blah. But no, not me. I decided to go for it head on and take on DP. I am confident I can do it. And from shooting this series I have now proved it. If my work wasn't up to TV standard then the producer would have fired my ass already. He's already fired quite a few people for their work, and they were experienced professionals!

Err, roughly £1500 per episode actually. Roughly $2900.

My "over inflated" opinion is based on all the work I have done. Which has been broadcast quality, and that's coming from Damion Reo, a very experienced director.

 

Hi;

 

Good luck with all that Daniel

 

Olly

 

 

 

At the moment my biggest downfall is that I don't have enough credentials. So right now yes, I have to give my producers a load of bull. Which I did, and it got me shooting this TV series.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Rachel Oliver]

Hi,

 

> I've been shooting films on and off for eight years and still don't have the nerve

> to call myself a DP because I know some very good one's and I'm not the same

> animal.

 

My feelings precisely.

 

I do think there's a bit of a nomenclature problem though, particularly with video. Someone could become a talented and experienced video "DP" and those skills wouldn't really be represented by a phrase like "lighting cameraman", which to me could be someone who lights news sets.

 

And furthermore, I agree that arrogance in this area is despicable, but I also agree that it gets you jobs.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi;

 

That's true Phil, It can get you jobs but only for as long as you can live up to your projected ability, success breeds success where as arrogance and inability well just, well.... Hows LA?

 

Olly

[Guest fstop]

I don't understand how it is valid and lacking arrogance for a director, writer, sound recordist or actor in a no-budget short/feature/promo/whatever to call themselves "director" "actor" or "writer" yet anyone who directs the photography is insulting those big experienced names above them when claiming to be a DP. If the DP is ot of their depth, surely the quality of their work will expose that for all to see?

 

You guys all make out calling yourself a DP on a shoot is like wearing a medal for a battle you never fought, and moreso than any other filmmaking role. It's ridiculous - it's just the job you did on a shoot.

 

Putting "ASC" at the end of your name with a straight face after you shoot a home camcorder short when you don't work professionally and never have IS wearing a meal for a battle you never fought.

[Dominic Case]

QUOTE

then the camera operator and 1st AC should call themselves a DP.

 

No, because if it is a shoot with a camera operator or 1st AC there must be a DP somewhere.

Back to MY point again.

 

A DP (DOP) is the title of a position on a crew, not a qualification or mark of respect. As is 1stAC (operator). Some productions give separate credits to DoP and Camera Operator, even if they are the same person.

 

I don't understand how it is valid and lacking arrogance for a director, writer, sound recordist or actor. . . 

I'll argue yet again for the term "cinematographer". That indicates the field you are working in without implying level. I think the point is that the director, writer, sound recordist and actor are all concentrating on their own work. For example, the director of King Kong (or King Lear) directs the actors in the same way that the director of a no-budget dv short directs the actors (or should). The person "controlling" the camera in the no-budget dv is doing a lot of things that the DoP in a bigger shoot wouldn't go near (and wouldn't be allowed to go near in many cases, and might not know how to do in other cases).

 

So it's a moot point. I guess if you have landed a paid job at 16 (btw, do you go to the pub after work with the crew?, and do any of them read this list?) and you are in charge of the cinematography, with or without an operator, then you are entitled to the DoP credit on that production. Maybe not anywhere else.

 

Putting "ASC" at the end of your name with a straight face after you shoot a home camcorder short when you don't work professionally and never have IS wearing a meal for a battle you never fought.

Well that's a different issue. ASC, like ACS, BSC etc are peer accreditations that go through a formal and well-defined process. No argument.

 

And finally,

Well, I have decided to not go with conformity and work my way up the ranks. Because that's what EVERYONE does. And just see how many people make it.

Oh it's good to read this stuff. If Orson Welles had worked his way up the ranks he might not have had time to make Citizen Kane before he faded. And thousands of others might have found out that they weren't going to "make it" a lot quicker. Seriously, keep aiming high, Daniel. Just try not to alienate too many of the people who may be able to bale you out if you ever need it.

[Rachel Oliver]

Seriously, keep aiming high, Daniel. Just try not to alienate too many of the people who may be able to bale you out if you ever need it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi;

 

Great advice, no one likes an arrogant twat, especially when they come back seeking help.

 

Olly

[Guest fstop]

I'll argue yet again for the term "cinematographer". That indicates the field you are working in without implying level. I think the point is that the director, writer, sound recordist and actor are all concentrating on their own work. For example, the director of King Kong (or King Lear) directs the actors in the same way that the director of a no-budget dv short directs the actors (or should). The person "controlling" the camera in the no-budget dv is doing a lot of things that the DoP in a bigger shoot wouldn't go near (and wouldn't be allowed to go near in many cases, and might not know how to do in other cases).

 

...you are in charge of the cinematography, with or without an operator, then you are entitled to the DoP credit on that production. Maybe not anywhere else.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with your last comment (quoted).

 

Interesting, Dominic, Storaro shares a similar opinion to your own (from the AC covering Bulworth):

AC: Why do you prefer cinematographer to director of photography in the credits?

 

STORARO: Because we aren't directing. That is Warren's job. We are writing with light and motion to tell a story. That distinction is very important.

 

Ahh. :)

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

Seriously, keep aiming high, Daniel. Just try not to alienate too many of the people who may be able to bale you out if you ever need it.

Uhh, yeh, good point. I think I am just trying to prove a point too much here, to the wrong people.

 

You guys all make out calling yourself a DP on a shoot is like wearing a medal for a battle you never fought, and moreso than any other filmmaking role. It's ridiculous - it's just the job you did on a shoot.

My point exactly.

[Nathan Milford]

The unfortunate part about internet forums is that your comments stick, and stay readable and searchable for years to come.

 

Potential clients and employers might happen upon your comments.

 

You may wake up years from now, read something you wrote, and feel utterly humiliated that you actually, at one point, had the naivety to make some bold assertions.

 

But, then again... maybe you won't...

 

Actions speak louder than titles... or rather reels do >8)

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

The unfortunate part about internet forums is that your comments stick, and stay readable and searchable for years to come.

 

Potential clients and employers might happen upon your comments.

 

You may wake up years from now, read something you wrote, and feel utterly humiliated that you actually, at one point, had the naivety to make some bold assertions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For that reason, the second I start getting big, I'm deleting all my comments off this board.

[Nathan Milford]

Yeah, it's worse on some boards. They can be indexed and archived by google or the internet way-back machine.

 

You can still read usenet threads from 20 years ago.

 

>8)

[Rik Andino]

Didn't this thread start out on where one could find basic info on lenses?

 

Wow it's amazing how things just get warped through the process...

It's like that game (kids play in elementary school)--TELEPHONE

You start out with: Lens Education

You end up with: Bannanas :)

 

So anyone wanna talk about bannanas...?

 

 

 

Okay maybe I killed this thread now...sorry :rolleyes:

 

Thanks for the funtime you gave me reading this thread

Dan, Olly, Andre, and the rest...

[Sam Wells]

Didn't this thread start out on where one could find basic info on lenses?

 

So anyone wanna talk about bannanas...?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, I'm looking for a 6X6 graduated Bannana filter - any sources ? Or, since this is a science documentary, should I go for a post-grad ?

 

"Is that a bannana filter in your mattebox or is your lens just happy to see me ?"

 

So there's the classic Catch-22. You need to build a reperatory of bad jokes, but if you're too young to go out to the pub with the crew, where are you gonna learn them ?

 

-Sam

 

anyone who reads this 20 years from now deserves to :D

Edited March 21, 2005 by SamWells

[Guest Ian Marks]

"For that reason, the second I start getting big, I'm deleting all my comments off this board."

 

I wish I were as confident of my future success.

[Max Jacoby]

Err, roughly £1500 per episode actually. Roughly $2900.

 

Since this is 'deferred money', I gather you haven't actually been paid yet, have you?

 

I have worked with some worldclass Dops and let me tell you they don't have to shout about how good and talented they are, they just let their work speak for themselves.

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

I have worked with some worldclass Dops and let me tell you they don't have to shout about how good and talented they are, they just let their work speak for themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well no one on here has actually seen my work. As far as everyone is concerned, right now I'm just a DP starting out shooting a few bits here and there. That's why I have to shout about it sometimes.

 

Perhaps when I get the DVD I'll upload some footage. Although bare in mind that this is only a TV series, so the cinematography doesn't exactly look that "arty". I managed to throw in a few bits, but generally it looks flat. And besides that the director was power crazy and wanted most of everything done his way, so, although it came out good, I wouldn't call it the finest work I can do.

 

It's just basic. Like Eastenders or something. Although, I did manage to throw in some nice shots.

 

Although I must admit, due to my lack of experience I did screw up once or twice. There was one scene where I couldn't use the tripod, I had to sit up on a sofa and place the camera behind someone overlooking there shoulder, trouble is I didn't the level right. Looks more like a bloody dutch shot.

 

There was also a scene where I crossed the line, not over the shoulder line, I mean an actor walked straight across the line of another actor.

Edited March 22, 2005 by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

[Filip Plesha]

Well no one on here has actually seen my work. As far as everyone is concerned, right now I'm just a DP starting out shooting a few bits here and there. That's why I have to shout about it sometimes.

 

Perhaps when I get the DVD I'll upload some footage. Although bare in mind that this is only a TV series, so the cinematography doesn't exactly look that "arty". I managed to throw in a few bits, but generally it looks flat. And besides that the director was power crazy and wanted most of everything done his way, so, although it came out good, I wouldn't call it the finest work I can do.

 

It's just basic. Like Eastenders or something. Although, I did manage to throw in some nice shots.

 

Although I must admit, due to my lack of experience I did screw up once or twice. There was one scene where I couldn't use the tripod, I had to sit up on a sofa and place the camera behind someone overlooking there shoulder, trouble is I didn't the level right. Looks more like a bloody dutch shot.

 

There was also a scene where I crossed the line, not over the shoulder line, I mean an actor walked straight across the line of another actor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you are eager to promote yourself, and don't have any footage yet to upload, you can show some of your still photography work you have mentioned. That certainly wouldn't have any technical obstacles and whould show your potential

in best light regarding image quality