Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 Ultimately you get treated how you allow yourself to be treated. No. You claim to be a producer. You set the rates of pay. It is your choice. Absolutely nobody chooses to work for free if they feel like they have any option at all. This is absolutely the core of that particular issue. It is not optional if it's the only way to achieve something. This is your decision. Doing something reprehensible then claiming that nobody stopped you is a pathetic attempt at an excuse. Producers are often all about being in charge, and exercising authority, and taking great joy in being bombastic and domineering. And then this. "Ooh, it wasn't my fault, they let me." Eurgh, this attitude is genuinely nausea-provoking. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 How many times have I said, I DON'T ASK PEOPLE TO WORK FOR FREE!!! I hate to say it Phil but you are quite simply an idiot, and I won't delete my comments this time. The only thing on this forum that is "genuinely nausea-provoking" is the putrid stench of your awful presence! I say again, if some so called "producer" wants you to work for free....DON'T TAKE THE STUPID JOB!!! Anyone who agrees to take these nonsense jobs here in Ontario is an idiot! http://mandy.com/1/jobs3.cfm?v=57284747 http://mandy.com/1/jobs3.cfm?v=57271693 R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brereton Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Stuart as an American are you in a position to criticize the Swiss? Just off the top of my head...slavery, segregation, treatment of the Indians, the KKK, Abu Ghraib Prison, Guantanamo Bay, shall I go on? I'm British. Switzerland's moral ambiguity with regard to international finance is fact, not speculation. And I actually agree with you with regard to Maxim's ideology. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I'm British. Switzerland's moral ambiguity with regard to international finance is fact, not speculation. And I actually agree with you with regard to Maxim's ideology. "I'm British." So am I. ;) Yes, but Stuart....what country would pass such a policy if put to a vote? Certainly not the UK, America, or Canada, that is for certain. So I don't see how the Swiss can be criticized? R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxim Ford Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) "I'm British." So am I. ;) Yes, but Stuart....what country would pass such a policy if put to a vote? Certainly not the UK, America, or Canada, that is for certain. So I don't see how the Swiss can be criticized? R, Any country would vote for a fair distribution of wealth if the arguments were presented to the people fairly, and there is the problem the richest people in the country control every media outlet and political party. Just look at how FOX news and the US media present the most modest reform of health care. Death panels, Obamacare etc.... Democracy is just a propaganda word. Where the wealthy own so much wealth they have total power, it is a dictatorship of the rich. We live in a plutocracy. Edited November 25, 2013 by Maxim Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Walters Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 and taking great joy in being bombastic and domineering. Like 99% of the rest of the English-speaking world, you don't appear to know what "Bombastic" actually means. Therefore the rest of your arguments are clearly null and void. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 "I'm British." So am I. ;) Yes, but Stuart....what country would pass such a policy if put to a vote? Certainly not the UK, America, or Canada, that is for certain. So I don't see how the Swiss can be criticized? R, In Switzerland a referendum can be forced if you get 10,000 signatures from the public, so there are many crazy subjects that are put to the public vote every month or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxim Ford Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) I spoke to Emma Kosmin of the Living Wage Foundation. She told me that they were going to move from talking about an hourly minimum living wage to an annual minimum living wage. For people in full time employment this would be for London that would be £8.80 x 40 x 52 = £18,304 per year The only thing for us to calculate is an average of how many days a beginning freelancer can expect to work. And from that calculate how much per hour should be the minimum living wage hourly rate. So for example a freelancer could only expect to work 30 hours a week 1664 hours a year, that would be £11 per hour as a Freelance Living Wage. What do people think is a realistic amount of work a freelancer can expect to have? I feel that having a concrete figure of a minimum would be very useful to bring pressure on companies to raise wages for the poorest workers in our industry and maintain wages for all. Edited November 25, 2013 by Maxim Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 How many times have I said, I DON'T ASK PEOPLE TO WORK FOR FREE!!! Then you have no need to try to excuse it. I wonder why you do. bombastic Pretentious, blustering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Then you have no need to try to excuse it. I wonder why you do. You know very well I have never excused work for free positions in the film industry, I challenge you to find a statement made by me on this forum where I specifically state that I support the idea of producers asking people to work for free. I have stated the opposite many times. The fact that you are unable to read and comprehend this is beyond me and every other member of this forum. If someone chooses to accept an unpaid position, that's their problem. I very emphatically said earlier that they should not. I'm posting an ad on Mandy.com right now asking for someone to come over to my London flat and clean it for free, well in exchange for work experience. I'll expect you on my door step with toilet brush in hand. After all.....you have no choice but to accept unpaid work. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 What do people think is a realistic amount of work a freelancer can expect to have? I feel that having a concrete figure of a minimum would be very useful to bring pressure on companies to raise wages for the poorest workers in our industry and maintain wages for all. Well we are right back to where we started. A "freelancer" by very definition cannot count on any set amount of work per year. There are those in the film industry that do it specifically because they may work for two months and then have two months off. They like the lifestyle, vs being locked into a 52 week/year office job. Again, if you want a steady pay cheque then work at a TV station cutting promos or shooting news. You'll never find "steady" work in the film industry. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 There isn't a single film set in film where the runners get paid? Grow up. Ultimately you get treated how you allow yourself to be treated. This statement seeks to excuse unpaid labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 I spoke to Emma Kosmin of the Living Wage Foundation. She told me that they were going to move from talking about an hourly minimum living wage to an annual minimum living wage. For people in full time employment this would be for London that would be £8.80 x 40 x 52 = £18,304 per year The only thing for us to calculate is an average of how many days a beginning freelancer can expect to work. And from that calculate how much per hour should be the minimum living wage hourly rate. So for example a freelancer could only expect to work 30 hours a week 1664 hours a year, that would be £11 per hour as a Freelance Living Wage. What do people think is a realistic amount of work a freelancer can expect to have? I feel that having a concrete figure of a minimum would be very useful to bring pressure on companies to raise wages for the poorest workers in our industry and maintain wages for all. Your having a laugh if you think freelancers should assume they will work 30 hours x 48 weeks a year. A freelance day rate must be a minimum of twice the full time rate, so min £136 a day. BECTU shows a min day rate for a clapper loader of £192 so I am in the right ballpark. Problem with communists is they work too cheap & then cry about it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 This statement seeks to excuse unpaid labour. What the *bleep* it in no way does at all in anyway shape or form. That's a stretch even for you Phil, try again. Good luck getting anyone here in the court of public opinion to agree with you!! (aside from Maxim of course.) R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brereton Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Yes, but Stuart....what country would pass such a policy if put to a vote? Certainly not the UK, America, or Canada, that is for certain. So I don't see how the Swiss can be criticized? I'm not criticizing the Swiss, just saying that they probably shouldn't be held up as a shining example of financial ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 I'm not criticizing the Swiss, just saying that they probably shouldn't be held up as a shining example of financial ethics. In Swiss society confidentially comes before anything else, that is why Tax evasion is not a criminal offence. If a banker even confirms a bank account exists he can go to prison. The social insurance fund cannot even pass data of employees to the Tax dept. In 2 cantons even with a court order a banker may not testify in court against a client, it's very different to the US where what Uncle Sam people jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxim Ford Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 Your having a laugh if you think freelancers should assume they will work 30 hours x 48 weeks a year. A freelance day rate must be a minimum of twice the full time rate, so min £136 a day. BECTU shows a min day rate for a clapper loader of £192 so I am in the right ballpark. Problem with communists is they work too cheap & then cry about it :D The Clapper loader rate you quote is BECTU going rate, which is what BECTU would hope people would demand and not work for less. It is by no means representative of what is being paid. Film London for example pay 60 pounds per day, I know as I refused to work a DOP on one of their films. The BBC drama rates are near the minimum wage for Camera Trainee, Costume Trainee, make up Assistants. £11 pound per hour would mean a big pay increase for a lot of grades and people. These are some of the best jobs going in the industry so represent the best paid. The rest of the industry low pay, unpaid work, and poor conditions is growing. I didn't propose any rate I asked people for their opinion. Your opinion that freelances should earn twice the rate of full time staff would put you in the Maoist tendency. Please try and bring some intelligence to the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 In Swiss society confidentially comes before anything else, that is why Tax evasion is not a criminal offence. If a banker even confirms a bank account exists he can go to prison. The social insurance fund cannot even pass data of employees to the Tax dept. In 2 cantons even with a court order a banker may not testify in court against a client, it's very different to the US where what Uncle Sam people jump. Sounds like a utopia, where do I sign up? Do I get a machine gun? :D R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted November 25, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 25, 2013 The BBC drama rates are near the minimum wage for Camera Trainee, Costume Trainee, make up Assistants. £11 pound per hour would mean a big pay increase for a lot of grades and people. Your opinion that freelances should earn twice the rate of full time staff would put you in the Maoist tendency. Please try and bring some intelligence to the debate. The double rate applies for single day jobs, I don't think you could expect that on a 13 week show. Producers have been telling me I am too expensive for 35 years, I don't take any notice. I know how much I want to earn a year & divide by 100, sometimes I do more than 100 days , sometimes not, thats the 'fun' of being freelance :D If people want to work for £60 a day, they are doing it as a hobby with no possibility of making it a career. I lost a film last year to a kid was going to supply a camera & be the DOP for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Walters Posted November 26, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted November 26, 2013 Then you have no need to try to excuse it. I wonder why you do. Pretentious, blustering? It properly refers to the excessive use of flowery and basically unnecessary wordage in an attempt to sound sophisticated or relevant. The word derives from an Italian term for lacework (as in clothing) You know, like my "MR RHODES!" Vaudeville gag type expostulations that go on for three paragraphs and end in "Aargh; words fail me..." :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted December 8, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted December 8, 2013 Article on the BBC news site today mentions that most of the "poor" people (whatever measure was used for that) in the UK are actually in work. Government claims that work is the best route out of poverty. Then on the same day awards itself 11% pay rise, in circumstances where most people are lucky to get half of inflation. Again, I don't want to come off as an unqualified waver of the red flag, but this sort of thing doesn't really look too good, does it? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxim Ford Posted December 8, 2013 Author Share Posted December 8, 2013 How economic inequality harms societies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 One thing that appears to enrage the white populace of Canada and the UK is how many immigrants come to both countries arriving with little to nothing. Then after 10-15 years the immigrants are living in bigger homes and driving nicer cars, than the native "white folk." How does this happen? Well when I see the number of hours new immigrants put into working at the corner shop or gas station it doesn't surprise me. They don't leave the shop at 5pm, they work all day Saturday and Sunday, and they never take vacations. No wonder they succeed financially. Especially when they move to a country where there is no political corruption, & no police or criminal gangs that they need to pay bribes to just to stay in business. No white Canadian or Briton wants to work the kind of hours many new immigrants do, but we do expect the same financial rewards. I can't fault any new immigrant that comes to Canada and becomes a self made millionaire through sheer hard work and determination. Fact is that in Canada and the UK a lot of new immigrants succeed to this degree, even though they have none of the advantages starting out that Canadians and Britons have. Now Maxim will be on here decrying the fact that many impoverished immigrants who become financially successful should be taxed at an enormous rate in order to support everyone else. Because they became wealthy by lying, cheating, and ripping off the rest of society. The idea that they worked hard and made sacrifices doesn't enter into the minds of people like Maxim. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Government claims that work is the best route out of poverty. So not working is a faster way out of poverty? R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted December 8, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted December 8, 2013 Well, yes, right now that's actually literally true. But that's not really the problem. The problem is that, in the UK and to some extent the US, you're currently likely to do a bit less well than your parents did. Regardless of how well they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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