Quantum/atomic practical effects on 16mm

Peter Connell · August 9, 2023

I recently watched Oppenheimer and was very interested by the shots where they were imitating subatomic forces and particles. I believe most of these were done with VFX but I was wondering if anyone can think of any ideas how to make this using practical effects on 16mm? One idea I had was to take the start of a roll of film with its random artefacts and invert the image and adjust the temperature as I have done below. The flickering and random nature of this could to a degree imitate a subatomic process. Any other thoughts?

David Mullen ASC · August 9, 2023

I remember that ILM used to burn steel wool (like in Brillo Pads) to create the effect of burning embers inside a spaceship that was on fire. But yes, maybe hi-contrast images of a dusty negative of a white field (so black) running through a telecine / scanner could be manipulated... Or create an interference pattern (moire) by sliding two screen patterns of backlit art of points of light.

Peter Connell · August 9, 2023

Thank you for the suggestions David. The steel wool effect in particular looks great I just saw examples on YouTube. An interference pattern would also be very cool. I may experiment with projecting a light through a jar containing small particulate in the hope it creates shadows and randomised movement/brownian motion. A lot of fun.

Phil Rhodes · August 9, 2023

1 hour ago, David Mullen ASC said:

Or create an interference pattern (moire) by sliding two screen patterns of backlit art of points of light.

Nothing to do with the original question, but I was always quite taken with the use of chunks of polarising filter to create animated graphics on the backlit panels for Star Trek. Various real world physical phenomena have interesting behaviour under polarised light.

Robin Phillips · August 9, 2023

Action VFX has some burning steel wool stock footage that could be useful https://www.actionvfx.com/collections/burning-steel-wool-stock-footage

I think a lot of stuff in Oppenheimer was done with a large variety of fuels and material tricks, including flares and other moderately dangerous things if not done safely. They were running some photosonics cameras that could do over 2000fps, and at those speeds if you get clever with burning embers and the like you can get super interesting stuff. Hell I remember Ian Hunter saying he did a bunch of random reflective debris on interstellar that made it into the picture as the spaceship fell into the black hole, and he did that by orienting the model upright, the camera below it, and just dropping shit at it. I could imagine you might be able to even get cool stuff with some 3m scotchlite tape shreds illuminated by an LED flashlight and experimenting with different frame rates, including long exposures.

Peter Connell · August 10, 2023

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Phil Rhodes · August 12, 2023

Here's a video which amounts to pretty much a detailed how-to.

I'd be fairly convinced that how this guy does it is very close to how it was done. Most of it is fairly obviously cloud tank effects.

I saw the film yesterday and I thought the shots of what was supposed to be the actual nuclear fireball looked like what they were, which is a much smaller, too small, conventional pyrotechnic effect based on an explosive charge lifting a liquid fuel. At some point, you have to unbend and CG it, or at least do a big cloud tank effect. You can draw a mushroom cloud in the foam on a coffee if you drag the tip of a spoon through it.

Cloud tanks are underutilised. The late, great, Doug Trumbull was a big fan.

Interesting factoid: you can see the pulse width modulation in the lights if you look closely at his whirling safety pin. I would suspect that in reality a lot of that was shot at low frame rates.

Dan Finlayson · August 14, 2023

On 8/12/2023 at 2:17 PM, Phil Rhodes said:

I'd be fairly convinced that how this guy does it is very close to how it was done. Most of it is fairly obviously cloud tank effects.

They really nailed it with the 3rd effect. Also, someone needs to get those boys some eye protection, the safety pin one was scary

Peter Connell · August 14, 2023

Funny coincidence it just popped up on my YouTube algorithm also. Yeah they really did a fantastic job. Thanks for the help everyone.

Peter Connell · September 8, 2023

I got my first roll back using my new Arri SR. I'm a hobbyist and was doing lighting, camera, sound, acting all on my own so please don't judge ! Audio very tinny was using a H1N for ease of use but had to filter heavily. On this youtube video is an assimilation of clips including the practical effects I recorded using the tips discussed here. Just thought some of you might want to check it out. I also got the film processed at Pinewood studios kodak lab which was so exciting. If any of you want the practical effects footage I'm happy to share !

bw,
Pete

Jeff Bernstein · September 8, 2023

On 8/9/2023 at 11:11 PM, Robin Phillips said:

Action VFX has some burning steel wool stock footage that could be useful https://www.actionvfx.com/collections/burning-steel-wool-stock-footage

I think a lot of stuff in Oppenheimer was done with a large variety of fuels and material tricks, including flares and other moderately dangerous things if not done safely. They were running some photosonics cameras that could do over 2000fps, and at those speeds if you get clever with burning embers and the like you can get super interesting stuff. Hell I remember Ian Hunter saying he did a bunch of random reflective debris on interstellar that made it into the picture as the spaceship fell into the black hole, and he did that by orienting the model upright, the camera below it, and just dropping shit at it. I could imagine you might be able to even get cool stuff with some 3m scotchlite tape shreds illuminated by an LED flashlight and experimenting with different frame rates, including long exposures.

The trailblazing Full Metal Jacket (1987) : “We had two high-speed Fries cameras [adapted from standard Mitchells, which were used in combination with numerous Nikon lenses] going at five times speed [120 fps] as the soldiers were shot,” Milsome remembers. “We just tore them open with lots of squibs and ran our cameras at very high speed. We used Nikon lenses to a very large extent in this sequence, not only for their extremely sharp definition and clarity, but for their many varying focal lengths. The range of the focal lengths go from 5mm every mil up to 100 or 200mm. The long-focus lenses go up to 1200mm, which we could double and make 2400mm. They’re slow, but with the fast stock, we still had the aperture we needed on location without losing any of the quality — they don’t look like regular telephoto lenses. I think they have the supreme edge for optimum definition throughout the whole focal range.” Douglas Milsome in American Cinematographer, 29 Dec 2020.

fast stock : "high-speed Kodak 5294, which we rated at 800 ASA all the way through,” Milsome recalls. 'It should’ve been 400, so we were pushing it a little beyond where it would’ve given us a really solid black.'”

Edited September 8, 2023 by Jeff Bernstein

Robin Phillips · September 8, 2023

4 hours ago, Peter Connell said:

I got my first roll back using my new Arri SR. I'm a hobbyist and was doing lighting, camera, sound, acting all on my own so please don't judge ! Audio very tinny was using a H1N for ease of use but had to filter heavily. On this youtube video is an assimilation of clips including the practical effects I recorded using the tips discussed here. Just thought some of you might want to check it out. I also got the film processed at Pinewood studios kodak lab which was so exciting. If any of you want the practical effects footage I'm happy to share !

bw,
Pete

I'd love to see the source for the particle stuff. did you use particularly small materials or was it a sizable water tank?

Peter Connell · September 10, 2023

Hi Robin

I used a rounded flat based glass jar about 25cm wide. Surrounded it with black material. Filled it with water and threw some glitter in there and mixed it in circles then once i had slowed i did some random movement so the particles weren't all going the same way. Turned of all the lights except an aputure amaraon 100W light on low shining from the top. I focussed into the middle of the jar. I basically replicated what those guys did on the YouTube video posted earlier in the thread. Worked out well although I overexposed many of the shots.