Albion Hockney

Hi, I have heard a lot of people are putting black pro mist infront of the lens with the digital cameras to get a more organic picture. I have seen some various footage and have been pleased with the results I have seen and was interested in trying it out. The one thing I couldn't really get a handle on was how strong to use it. from peoples experience is black pro mist 1/8th enough to do anything? I just want enough take the edge off so I don't want to over due and have a super bloomy picture that looks like a stocking over the lens or something. I have heard the effect also intesifies over longer lenses so some people swap it out and use a lesser filter on long lenses? how true is this I couldnt really find examples.... was worried about continuity as for this shoot coming up all be shooting on both wider lenses (28mm or so and then long 135mm +)

Well this very much depends on the camera you are using, it is true a technique often used is to light a little brighter and bring down the picture in post to help aid in less noise. The larger issue is basically if you light a low key scene where you are working in the shadows you cant really raise the picture in post as it will get super noisy so you need to be sure you look where it is on the day. This is especailly true when shooting a higher iso. Either way without shooting raw or log you really want to get it right on the day. I think its fine to do this but with that said you still need a stronger key I think I dont know if you have a light meter but your picture is still looking pretty flat to me and your key seems substaintly underexposed. to me it is also too warm in an almost monochromatic way.... it looks like it lit with sodium vapor! as for reflections....again reflective light is not about lighting so it will not necessarily make your picture any brighter....if you simply but more light on the curtains you will see them reflected stronger in the piano and still keep a low key look. when I talk about pull the piano away I'm talkng feet for sure ....I was talking about those curtains in the backround.... honestly I would probably frame differnetly as well and take out most of the wall on frame left by shooting more profile or on a longer lens this is of course without knowing the context in your story and such so that might not work for you.

I think in general you need way less fill in the room. The key angle seems best in the first picture to me but the 2nd is ok too if you want a brighter look. I think you have too much light spilling around the room in general right now. I would start by turning everything off and working your key light. If you are going for a low key feeling which I think you are you really dont want your key light spilling around the room much you want a nice soft hit on your actor and then just enough fill to see his other side a bit. This is what I would atleast think I would do in this setup. for your key light I would take on postion in your first photo, I would take a home depot clamp light with the silver reflector and probably use a 100W bulb or a bigger bulb and put it on a dimmer. I would put diffusion over the front (250 probbaly) and then blackwrap around the sides to control the light off most everything else but your talent. You want the key sufficently bright that you can underexpose the lamp a bit.... you probably need the light to put a little bit of light on the top of the piano and that wall its right next to, to look natrual but other then that you dont need it doing much. For those back curtains I would again use something kinda soft and I would create something of a cut on the curtains so it falls off left to right and top to bottom. Basically you want to make it look like that lamp on the piano is light the back curtain but you want to get a really nice gradient of fall of so it looks more interesting. I 2nd Satsuki that you want a bit of a silouhette asthetic so bring up the curtains for sure. for fill I would get something big and soft on his side frontal to camera but honestly you could also just bounce a little light off the wall behind the camera. Honestly in my asthetic that might be enough. I think you can do with out the special on the music ....its a bit forced to me as for the piano. Reflective surfaces are actually not really about lighting....it is like Satsuki said about reflections ....the piano will look most interesting if there is not much light hitting it but things for it to reflect, again like satsuki said a big soft light which is how most car commericals are lit. Think of it as a mirror, at the angle you are shooting from the piano sees (is reflecting) the curtains. If you want it to reflect something else you will have to change your shooting angle. If you want the curtain reflection to be more pornounced what you have to do is get more light off the surface of the piano and get more light onto the curtains in this way the surface of the piano will become much more contrasty ....the parts not reflecting the curtains will be a deep black while the parts reflecting the curtains can be very bright. I also agree, moving the piano out from the wall and creating more depth would be nice.

Hey Guys I have a little commerical shoot and the producer wants to use a black magic pocket cinema camera as we want a bit better of an image then a go pro or other tiny camera as well as control over focal lengths. With that said anyone ever do this before? I was thinking of getting a skateboard helemet and trying attach a cheese plate or something to it and then just rig the camera off it with a couple monitor arms or something. thoughts?

yes literally reflected light means a mirror but using shinny board or something gets you something that is a bit diffused but still has some directonality to it. bounced light generally has very little directionality it goes everywhere.

when you say reflectors do you mean bouncs or reflectors. Reflected light is much differnt then bounced light. Bounced light unless controled will not likley look like pools of light in that space.... it will light up the whole room.

it will never match daylight....the lights will look organge so you can play it like its coming from lamps or it can be a stylistic choice but know that it will never look "normal" you will have to create a stylized look and bouncing a light off of white will not effect the color temperature. also generally a redhead is not near bright enough to match daylight so your backround will likley be overexposed still.

yea I'd have 251 on stand by too you can shape how soft a fall of you want based on the level of diff and also spot/flooding the light to dial it in. i do this all the time with smaller sources on backdrops for the halo effect in interviews

good to know haha ....seems like a bad buy for anyone who can't re wire them. I will stay away.

HA, whats wrong with a little riff raff do you want the talent lit with the light as in your example or you just want the effect on the backround either way the principles are the same assuming you want to create exactly what is above. take your light a fresenl or an open face and take the barn doors off then get a 4x4 frame or a 2x3 frame of a diffusion like Opal or 251 maybe even 250. make sure the whole round beam of light is going through the frame and nothing is cut off and you should see exactly what you see above. to cover that space I would say you probably want something like a 2k or larger. if you wan't to add to that look I'd really recomend adding an edge to the talent.... a couple smaller lights on either side pointed back toward the talent from the cyc probably also through some light diffusion will help seperate them from the backround.

If you don't have the budget to work with 8x8 or larger frames with diffusion and bounce materials then continuity in the sun over a long period for shooting dialog can be pretty tough. although if you are shooting MCU's and CU's and then just a wide you can do a lot with 4x4 frames I'd go by pretty much everything you said, wides during golden hour and don't shoot with overhead sun..... you dont need to backlight though alot of people do that for conistency and then just fill in the faces which can tottaly work but there are other solutions. also keep in mind other variables like if the backrounds are in shade or trees or your next to a big white building where the sun is bouncing off ....there are alot of other ways to natrually get the light doing different things I'd say from past experience the best thing you can when wanting to work with the sun for specfic times is prep really well know how long the shoot is going to take and make sure problems don't arise on the day and push back shooting. know the the window you want to get from the sun and make sure it'll happen else you can wind up loosing shots pretty easliy or shooting stuff that won't match

you are in a tough spot with magnetic ballasts.... be weary test them with your camera first I have had many a bad time when I was younger trying to get deals on cheap HMI's and having crummy magnetic ballasts flicker. If you want a direct sunlight look like the sun punching through trees I would say you are going to want to probably use a cookie or some real tree branches to break up your lights..... I would probably put the lights through some opal or 251 and then get some tree branches in the way...... if you diffuse the light a lot it will stop looking like direct sunlight and look more like end of the day ambient sunlight which is also can be beautiful. With all that said I think with two 1.2ks together you are still in a situation where you can only really light close ups and mediums. I think with the power you have you are much more suited to use the lights to create a softer more ambient look and simply use them to add a little something if you are in shade. In that case I would put both 1.2ks through heavier larger diffusion (probably a 6x6) to give the close ups and mediums a little extra something. If you get direct sun on the day thats great. Keep in mind shooting on location is something where you have to roll with the punches and make quick decisions on the fly. If you plan for shade but get sun have the gear you need on the truck to make that work too.... this is why we need such big trucks! because you never know what will happen ....I've been on a commercial set where the DP had a 5 ton truck and tow mounted genny with large HMI's and we wound up using nothing more then a couple big frames and some shinny board. with the direct sun maybe have a frame with some light diffusion to bring its harshness down and then have a frame to use a big bounce for fill and in regards to are these lights suited for pools of sunlight.... well it all depends ....like I said 1.2ks are not super powerful so in very tight shots yes it can work. but for strong ls of sunlight you basically want the biggest light you can get because the bigger the light the farther away the more natrual it will look and the more flexibalilty you will have in using it. so consider with 1.2ks you are kinda at the bottom the barrel here.

ah yes, europe! I forgot. Yea echo everything Rob said about crew size and grip needs. Be careful .....big lights = more time and more people ....having a 12x frame and a 12 light maxi vs just having one m-40 or just a 12x for fill will really change the dynamics of the set.

well with only one large source you'll probably be fine with the distro box but you will need to know about the connections (bates, twist lock, etc). Also keep in mind a 6k HMI or 12 light maxi .....well especially the 12 light ....it probably weighs 100lbs + and you will need a big combo stand along with a few people to place the light and raise the stand. if you want the light to be high up that will be something to figure out in its own right. I probbaly wouldn't go this direction unless you have a crew that has had some expereince ....if its a short shoot like you say and your starting out maybe even ask the rental company about having someone come out or ask a favor of a more experienced gaffer. not sure your level of experience here not to condescend and such but just wanted to give fair warning

Haha I'll give you that this is a total google question. but I don't think you need to shame a self admitted beginner either

Maxi's are great units .....and keep in mind if you go through some diffusion it will pretty much unifiy the source. a 9 or 12 light can do late afternoon sun in a moderatly wide shot if everything else is in shade (like i'd say slightly wider then that bench....but not much). and for your close ups you could get away bouncing it.....it would a little more of a soft sunlight look though and will be very warm. I think 1/2 CTO on a 6K Par through lite diffusion is also a nice option though. This will cover about as wide as a two shot of the bench just like the maxi would. Keep in mind earlier you were saying you trying to power from a building....any light over 2k you will need a generator. a 4k hmi par you can run off a small generator but anything bigger then that you will be talking about a truck towed generator and will need an expereinced gaffer/best boy to run power for you. These are big lights that take several hands and much heavier duty equipment to work with.

Mark, your attitude is not necessary. Gene, Yes as Mark said dimming tungsten lights warms them up.... people do use dimmers all the time but with knowning the source will get warmer. Fresenl lights come with scrims usually a set includes two singles, a double, and a half. Which are little wire nets that cut down the light and slip right infront of the lens of the light. A red double scrim cuts a full stop of light effectively turning a 650 into a 325w light or a 1k into a 500w light while the green single scrims cut 1/2 stop of light. you can stack them infront of the light as well so if you have a 1k light you can turn it into anything between 1k-250W just with a few scrims

Oh yes Contempt! what a beautiful film I have to revist that one certaintly. Interesting to bring up people using soft light as expressionist as well I like that idea a lot.

This is great was really interested to watch some early soft lighting work. David that picture is great! looks like image 80's ...so funny does look like modern lighting! John, I tottaly forgot about help! I always loved the photography in that film I need to return to it Curious if anyone else has some recomends for early pioneer's of soft light and natrualistic work thanks much

Generally the color temp of the bounce is not an issue. If your concern is just natrualism no it won't be an issue bounced light comes from all kinda of places and in a urban setting honestly that bounce light on fill side of faces is more likley from the ground or other buldings then the ambient blue in the sky. That is actually an interesting point though I never thought about I haven't really seen anyone blue up there fill side before...I have heard of it for interiors ....reflecting ambient skylight that is super blue into spaces but never on a day exterior....might create an interesting color contrast. I think in your circumsatance the idea to B up your 1.2ks isn't bad but I think likley the bounce back of the sun will be far more powerful and the 1.2ks wont really do anything at all and it will just look the same. and in your close ups with a 12x honestly your in danger of too much fill if anything (assuming you are trying to keep a nice natrual contrast) you will want to keep the 12x a decent distance away....whats nice about big rags is that you can keep them at a nice distance, get a super soft ambient fill and still get a nice punch. I would recomened a 12x of bleached muslin for closeups and maybe a 12x of ultra bounce for your wide shot. In your close ups you might want to cut the sun with a 4x4 of Opal or 251 or something just to bring it back a little if its too peircing. I have never heard of any blueish cloth materials for bounces but maybe you could look into that if you were really interested in that. or for your close ups just get a 4x of 1/2 CTB and place it infront of there fill side between the bounce and the talent.

I think mr rogers is over simplifying a little....you dont need to diffuse light to look good ....especially if you keep the sun as like a rear third edge or something ....and you can use light diffusion still and get a decent stop. The trees in shade will look fine as well....it will just look like buildings or w/e are creating a little spot of sunlight on the bench. I think your big problem is a 1.8k will never be enough to light your wide shot for a golden hour direct sunlight effect.

Jarmusch is talking about the system ...society as a whole not indivduals. Critique of culture is one of the most important things art offers society furthmore if the film made you consider your actions and your place in this contempoary world that is a great success. Jarmusch is not so one sided and lacking in depth to say something as simple as "the world sucks" he is diving much deeper and I dont think he is blaming anyone or saying life is barley worth living at all.

I was curious if anyone here can trace back the history of the use of diffusion in lighting (not on lenses).....it seems it wasn't really till into the 60's 70's you start seeing more natrualistic lighting and softer sources. I wonder what cinematographers first started diffusing lights and why the initally began to do it. Seems it would be something they would do to help make women look pretty ...but I wonder what shooters started to pionner more natrualistic lighting in general.

I think with a 1.8K hmi through like a 4x4 of 251 or 250 and maybe 1/4 or 1/2 CTO you could get away with shooting mediums and close ups with a golden hour look in that situation..... but anything wider I think it will be a hard sell. the light will have to be pretty close to talent to get enough punch. I'd recomend toning back the look and not blasting the HMI.... Diff it up heavily and you can create a really nice more ambient soft look kinda like whats in your picture there but you can model it up a little and give it a little more directonlity ....then you can cut to your wide without any lights natrual. I think when your first start using HMI's the notion is often to blast light cause its fun to play with the new toys but often its a good decsion to be subtler about it. In general I wouldn't use an HMI for a day exterior if it was under 4K its just not so worth it unless its a special circumstance or something like one close up. I'd use overheads and bounce materials

I think you can make a nice argument that for logistical ease and consistency you need some 4k's or nice size HMI heads to do day exterior work, but in all honesty with modern camera technology you can get away without that stuff and generally will result in a much more pleasing image. 4K's through diff to get exposure is a much harsher source then an 8x8 or 12x12. It's one thing if its a big production thing and you have big guns out there ....and I guess it is another thing to if its an interview for the golf channel and you just need consistency but for the most part I much prefer the image working with overheads then HMI's ....maybe if I had opportunity to be on a bigger sets with lots of crew and bigger heads ....but really it just doesn't seem super necessary.