Women in film industry.

[Edgar Dubrovskiy]

What is a situation today? Is it true that only 4% of filmmakers are women in Hollywood film industry. Why is it so? Is it a case of discrimination, or women generally not being interested in production side of the film? Even here, on forum I have spotted one female only so far. Maybe I haven't seen a lot here, but this is my general view. So how would You comment?

[Kevin Zanit]

Its interesting, I know of quite a few female camera assistants, but plenty more male ones. I think there is more than one factor at work. Women traditionally were discriminated against in all fields, as the various womens movements made headway the notion of a woman in a traditionally "male" job became much more acceptable. I don't know too many people who look twice at a female camera assistant, or set electric for that matter.

 

I think there is still some discrimination directly in the movie business, but at the same time, little girls are still socialized by their parents and people around them to seek certain types of work. Thus, you find fewer women attracted to certain crew jobs.

 

Mary Pickford co-owned a studio in 1920, the same year the 19th amendment (women's suffrage) was ratified, though she was an exception, in some ways Hollywood was early in giving women a lot of power.

 

I think people tend to think the movie business exists in isolation, that what we do is so much more unique than everyone else. Of course the job has some very unique quirks, many of the issues people have are found here, discrimination, hating ones boss, etc, etc. Why are there so few women CEOs of fortune 500 companies? So few women race car drivers? So few women construction contractors? So few women presidents? The list is endless, and the question applies to all these other professions as well.

 

Kevin Zanit

[David Mullen ASC]

We've had this discussion before.

 

Personally, I think there are a number of factors at work. Discrimination is one aspect, but there are more subtle forms of discouragement that kick in at an early age, plus there is a lack of female role models, so right from the beginning, there are fewer women who even pursue a career in certain areas of moviemaking.

 

However, at CalArts, half the film school was made up of female students when I was there. Most were interested in areas that more women seem to drift into -- documentaries, experimental movies, and editing. Again, areas with more women role models.

 

On a film production, you see some departments that are evenly mixed, male vs. female -- production for example (UPM's, accountants, office PA's, producers, casting) or art department work -- and some heavily biased towards women (make-up, wardrobe, script supervision) -- and some biased towards men (grip, electric, transpo). I've also seen a fairly even mix of women in AD and sound departments.

 

Look at "Big Love" for example. The creators and show runner/producer are men, the main line producer is a woman, the writing staff is about one-third female, the office staff is about two-thirds women. We have a nearly all-female art department, wardrobe, and make-up. The two 1st AD's are men and the 2nd AD's are women, and the PA's are evenly mixed. The props master is a woman and asst. props is a man. Sound, grip, and electric are generally all men. Stills photography work has mostly been done by a woman. Camera department has been about two-thirds male. Editing department has got one woman editor and one male editor. Post-supervisor is a man and the assistant post supervisor is a woman. The two people in charge of clearances in legal and for music are women.

 

As a group overall, it seems to be about half-and-half men and women. But some departments are heavier in one direction than the other.

 

Like I said, there is a factor of women drifting into areas that seem open to them, less hassles in getting hired and more role models to inspire them.

 

Editing is one field where there have been successful women even in the Silent Era. Partly this is because directors were supposed to edit their own movies in the 1910's, early 20's, but they relied so much on the notes of their "script girl" (the script girl -- later, script supervisor -- job being an extension of secretarial work, which was traditionally done by women) that these women started getting involved in editing.

 

Camera work was traditionally considered to involve a lot of heavy-lifting, but that is less and less true these days, so there has been a greater influx of women recently into camera work than the other "heavy lifting" jobs (grip, electric).

 

But as for why there are fewer women "techno geeks", the type that hang out on cinematography forums, beats me -- I don't know whether to envy them or not.

[Guest]

I love this issue when it pops up on the forum, after this, you should ask why are there so few blacks in Hollywood?

 

Things will usually deteriorate on either question, we'll see how long it takes on this one.

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

It's one of those topics -- women in film -- that gets more and more ludicrous as more and more men weigh in. Just as with blacks in film, as more and more non-blacks make comments.

 

At some point, it's too easy to have an opinion when one is not the victim of that particular form of discrimination. It makes many of us, me included, sound glib. Which is why these discussions end badly, or just become pointless.

[Hal Smith]

But as for why there are fewer women "techno geeks", the type that hang out on cinematography forums, beats me -- I don't know whether to envy them or not.

I suspect that's because many women aren't quite as apt to make blanket pronouncements like many men are quick to do (as in this current pronouncement on the part of yours truly). Women prefer more conversational discussions with non-verbal feedback available - which isn't natural to a Forum.

[David Mullen ASC]

I suspect that's because many women aren't quite as apt to make blanket pronouncements like many men are quick to do (as in this current pronouncement on the part of yours truly). Women prefer more conversational discussions with non-verbal feedback available - which isn't natural to a Forum.

 

Oh, I'm sure there must be some forums dominated more by women. It seems the fan forums for TV shows like "Big Love" have a lot of women posters, for example.

 

But there is some truth in that -- my wife is a frequent internet user and goes to the Silent Era newgroups, etc. but is hesistant to post. Thinking that the world wants to hear one's opinion seems to be a particularly male behavior trait.

[James Steven Beverly]

There are a few women here off the top of my head, Niki, Anne, Julie and others I can't think of right now. Why is this even an issue anymore? For myself, I want a person who is capable, reliable, hard-working, creative and generally good natured on my set, I really don't give a rat's ass what gender, what color, what religion, how old or what nationality they are. If THEY don't make any of these things an issue why would I?

 

The ONLY issue I might have with ANY of these is in lead roll casting and that's ONLY because of foreign sales where black males and women statistically still do significantly less box office than white males. THAT is STRICTLY a business issue, in the indy world where your windows will probably only be foreign sales, second run TV and cable and MAYBE a percentage of DVD sales, it would make me think twice before casting an individual as the star of a low budget film that might hurt profit in the most lucrative of those three widows and THAT'S not so much my profit, it's everyone who invested in the film. It is vital to business success for my investors to make as much profit with their money as possible.

 

Now that being said, if I felt REALLY strongly that no one else could bring what a certain person brought to the role and it would raise the artistic quality of the piece to new heights, I WOULD cast that person REGARDLESS of box office considerations and hope the art would be recognized and box office would come. In other words, I would take the chance on exceptional talent, BUT if they were evenly matched, I have to be honest and in business terms, I'd have to go with the safer bet. Now if it were a medium budget picture where there was a greater chance of seeing some of the domestic B.O., OR if it were an established star, different story. Big budget films are packaged for the star so no issue there, because it's already set. B)

Edited November 14, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[Adam Thompson]

I cant believe I'm commenting on this but....

 

Why is it so important to have women in film? It's not in their nature to hang out in work groups like men do and it's not in their nature to be involved in technical jobs. And the ones that are, are often lesbians with male traits.

 

I find it really strange that many people in the film world seem to be so concerned that everything seem equal to the point where it's absurd. Directing and DP work rarely involves a female because it's natural for men to be in such roles, always has been, always will.

 

Get over it. Nature will always rule, not laws, not opinions, not what the media or what your leftist school wants you to think.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Adam Thompson

[Tom Lowe]

Hehe. My favorite female director now is Coppola. I loved Virgin Suicides and Lost in Translation.

 

I will throw in some mysoginism and say I don't think females do well on a crew on very demanding and remote location shoots. Shooting under "military" conditions doesn't go well with most females. Word to the wise. :)

[Guest]

Why is it so important to have women in film? It's not in their nature to hang out in work groups like men do and it's not in their nature to be involved in technical jobs. And the ones that are, are often lesbians with male traits.

 

I fear the wrath of the forum will soon be upon thee!

 

"Lesbians with male traits," oh boy that's classic, if I had said that people would call fer me head!!

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

2 words-Penny Marshall. Come on, women bring their own set of sensibilities and aesthetics to the screen and the art of motion pictures would and is a poorer place because women don't get the chance to contribute as much as they should. Grip work is a bitch, IIII hate doing it, but if a girl can pull cable and doesn't slow anyone down, why not hire her. Also, I doubt there are as many lesbians working as you might think (if their sexual orientation is anybodies business anyway), when women are surrounded by men, and there are no other women areound, they HAVE to get tough or get ran over. Whadaya expect them to do, wear a dress and bake muffins on set? Come on, dude, think! :rolleyes:

[Adam Thompson]

2 words-Penny Marshall. Come on, women bring their own set of sensibilities and aesthetics to the screen and the art of motion pictures would and is a poorer place because women don't get the chance to contribute as much as they should. Grip work is a bitch, IIII hate doing it, but if a girl can pull cable and doesn't slow anyone down, why not hire her. Also, I doubt there are as many lesbians working as you might think (if their sexual orientation is anybodies business anyway), when women are surrounded by men, and there are no other women areound, they HAVE to get tough or get ran over. Whadaya expect them to do, wear a dress and bake muffins on set? Come on, dude, think! :rolleyes:

 

Who are you talking to? I'd love some muffins actually. Know any girls that want to make me some for the credit? :D

 

The wrath of the forum Richard? I think it's scary that people don't speak obvious truths anymore. They prefer to dance around it and what's worse is they even start to believe things and feel things they are told to by systems that develop simply to push their own economic interests.

 

 

ANYWAY... James, you ACTOR, DIRECTOR, CAMERA GUY, FILMMAKING MASTER OF ALL...... you SHOULD stop USING CAPS all the time BECAUSE it's REALLY annoying.

[James Steven Beverly]

ANYWAY... James, you ACTOR, DIRECTOR, CAMERA GUY, FILMMAKING MASTER OF ALL...... you SHOULD stop USING CAPS all the time BECAUSE it's REALLY annoying.

 

James: (sarcastically, with confidence) Well I could type in stage directions but I thought caps were a little more subtle....and I'm not a master of all.....(with a little smile) just of women.

 

Is that better? B)

Edited November 14, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[Kevin Zanit]

Let it begin . . .

 

Adam, "not in their nature", please provide me some evidence that gender roles in the US are driven solely by nature, that it really has nothing to do with the socialization of how women are raised in the US, finally settle this whole nature vs. nurture debate thats been going on in the sociology/ communications fields for god knows how long since you clearly have the answers.

 

I don't think the question was why are there not equal amounts of males and females, but really why do the various genders gravitate towards various jobs, and is one of the factors discrimination?

 

Do things have to be equal? No. Should we discriminate based solely on gender? You tell me.

 

All this said, I can honestly say I am more prone to hiring male crew members for the simple reason that I find I communicate better with other males. Why? because I am a male, so we communicate in the same way. Does that mean I would not hire female crew members, definitely not, I have in the past.

 

"I will throw in some mysoginism and say I don't think females do well on a crew on very demanding and remote location shoots. Shooting under "military" conditions doesn't go well with most females. Word to the wise."

 

Yeah? Say that to some of the ladies of the IDF (or any military with women serving), see how well that goes over.

 

Kevin Zanit

[Guest]

"The wrath of the forum Richard? I think it's scary that people don't speak obvious truths anymore."

 

You seem to be able to get away with, "Lesbians with male traits."

 

I'd be banned.

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

I think it's scary that people don't speak obvious truths anymore.

 

Well, "obvious truths" part is sort of debatable.

 

Some of us were raised to believe that inequality in society, in the workforce, etc. was ethically and morally wrong even if "perfect" equality was not possible or practical. This is why questions of representation in the workforce are still relevent -- it mattered historically and it still matters. The restrictions to advancement in society should be based on individual merit and ability, not on our sex or race. And I'm not willing to draw the conclusion, when you see a lack of women CEO's, for example, that it is due to some inherent lack of ability on the part of women, some sort of genetic disadvantage -- that sort of thinking is dangerous.

 

The attitude that inequality of opportunity, or discrimination, is "natural", "just the way things are", "traditional", "not so bad", whatever -- well, just look back in time an imagine the sorts of injustices that would still be in place if everyone had that attitude. We'd still have separate bathrooms and lunchcounters, etc. for blacks and whites in the South. We'd still have Jim Crow laws, etc.

 

I'm hoping that you aren't using the term "obvious truths" as some sort of coded language for racist or sexist beliefs. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that it was not your intention.

 

Everyone has opinions and some are misguided, even mine. I tend to judge them (my own included) on the core philosophy around which they are based and whether it is an admirable one. For example, though I don't always agree with a lot of Libertarians, I can appreciate their core philosophy and respect it, I just don't always agree with their conclusions. I'm Pro-Choice, but I respect the opinions of Pro-Life people because I understand their core belief, I just don't agree with their conclusions. But I have trouble respecting certain other philosophies because of the foundation on which they are based.

[David Mullen ASC]

"The wrath of the forum Richard? I think it's scary that people don't speak obvious truths anymore."

 

You seem to be able to get away with, "Lesbians with male traits."

 

I'd be banned.

 

R,

 

Well, overtly-prejudiced comments like that should be banned on a forum that needs to be inclusive, and I don't mean inclusive of people with abhorent philosophies, I mean inclusive of a wide swath of filmmakers, some of who are lesbians (in fact, I've shot two features for lesbian directors, and they didn't have "male traits") I don't know if Adam should get a one-time-only pass or not, that's sort of Tim Tyler's decision.

 

Richard, you're smart enough to not make such comments anymore. Let's see if Adam is as bright as you are.

[Guest]

"Richard, you're smart enough to not make such comments anymore."

 

Yes of course. And I have no comments on the discussion at hand.

 

But it did seem odd that such a wild statement was ignored by the group, that's all.

 

R.

[Kevin Zanit]

Fair enough, though I certainly did not ignore it, I figure most people on here don't need someone to point out how stupid a comment that was to make on a public forum.

[James Steven Beverly]

"The wrath of the forum Richard? I think it's scary that people don't speak obvious truths anymore."

 

You seem to be able to get away with, "Lesbians with male traits."

 

I'd be banned.

 

R,

 

If they banned ya Richie, I got yer back, buddy! I'd be out front of Tim's house with a protest sign " BRING BACK RICHARD BODDINGTON, HE CAN'T HELP IT, HE WAS BORN WITH KEYBOARD TOURETTE'S SYNDROME!!". I'm even working on a protest chant.......I just gotta figure out a rhyme for Cinematography.com.....it may take a while so don't get kick off for a few weeks. :)

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

I still haven't seen a woman's name in this thread :/

 

Sometimes I hear comments from DP's and AC's about how there'll be more female filmmaker's once they start building lighter cameras. And although those comments are distasteful to hear or say, there really is a physiological truth to it that can't be denied.

 

I'm just glad to see that cameras really are getting lighter everyday, and that we are able to see more and more literal female perspective in cinema.

[James Steven Beverly]

Dude, an Aaton weighs what? Women lug around fidgety 3 and 4 year olds all day long, don't tell me they aren't strong enough to set up or hand hold a camera. My Knovas can be held with one hand. You're lumping all women together, there are women that are very strong and tough and women that are frail, just like there are muscleheads and there are wimps. There are a lotta GUYS I know that would have trouble lifting a heavy 35mm camera, besides, we don't use' 3 strip Mitchells anymore. A BL or a Panavision should be plenty light enough for a reasonable strong person of either gender to put on a tripod and build up or put on their shoulder and film for a while.

Edited November 14, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[David Mullen ASC]

I've had female AC's for Arri-35BL and Panaflex packages on various shows, no problems. They can certainly lift more weight than I can... I've seen a female AC pick-up an Arri-BL4 with Cooke zoom, regular sticks, and O'Connor Ultimate head, throw the whole thing on their shoulder, and carry it.

 

It's really a non-issue for 35mm shooting as far as I am concerned, what matters more is the particular individual, not whether they are male or female. A physically frail male or female probably wouldn't persue a career as an AC anyway, or wouldn't last long. It IS a job that requires some physical strength, of course, and there are some people that can handle it and some people that can't, but the women AC's that I've hired haven't had to be particularly Amazonian to do the work, just healthy, in shape, hearty-types.

 

And as far as operating goes, a DP like Nancy Schreiber has probably done more 35mm handholding than I ever have, and definitely Ellen Kuras has, and they are not physically large women.

[Satsuki Murashige]

There are a lotta GUYS I know that would have trouble lifting a heavy 35mm camera...

That's for sure. One of the best 1st ACs I know joking refers to himself as a "manboy" on set, he's about 5'8, 130lbs. I'm about the same size myself, so you won't see me trying to lift a fully built Panaflex+fluid head+sticks all at once. That's what 2nd ACs are for, to help carry the load. :)

 

I've seen a female AC pick-up an Arri-BL4 with Cooke zoom, regular sticks, and O'Connor Ultimate head, throw the whole thing on their shoulder, and carry it.

Wow, that's very impressive. Hope someone took a picture.:)

 

FWIW, having just graduated from film school, I've noticed quite a few female grips on student sets. They've all been excellent and I'd work with them again in a heartbeart. Maybe we'll begin to see more of them in the industry over the next several years as they begin to filter out of schools and into the workforce. About a third of the DPs I've AC'd for have been women as well. I've had a few bad experiences with male DPs with big egos, but all of my experiences with female DPs have so far been positive.