Jump to content
Brian Drysdale

Epic 5k

Recommended Posts

Well I do not believe Jannard is losing money on anything. Why. Because like a genius he made the RED one look like the end all of cameras with modularity , upgradable, making obsolescence obsolete- words like that thrown out as he pushed the cam and now he makes a better camera where you can put your red ones full 17500.00 cost towards the Epic. But how much will you have to pay 20K, 30K ? on top of the red one because your red one just became obsolete. Who would rent or shoot RED One when epic is around?

 

Everyones who bought a REdone paid $30,000 to be a beta tester. Genius.

 

Jannard is also a genius in getting more money out of your pocket consistently. Thank god for rentals. If I was a Red One purchaser I would be pissed. Total value of red one put towars epic is great but he really should do more for those first 500 Red purchasers at least as they made the company. I bet silently they are stewing not to enrage the leader of the revolution. The only revolution they're seeing now is how easy Jannard can get money from you. Seeing that this is the way he works I would never buy a cam from the company but I will rent the cam as much as I can. Come on boys get the epic out.

 

For all those camera purchasers. To quote Johnny Rotten: Ever feel like you've been cheated?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, people with RED ONE still have an awesome 4K cinema camera with a 35mm sensor and RAW for under $20K. The camera was awesome yesterday; it is still awesome today. And the Red One is not standing still. Jannard mentioned yesterday that the Red One will get a hardware sensor upgrade soon.

 

How many times have F900 owners been offered upgrades for their sensor?

 

People who own high-end DLSRs, for example, cannot upgrade their sensor... they just have to sit back and watch their camera fall in value and usefulness. At least Red One is upgradeable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... we can have a rational conversation about the transition to digital without everyone being so defensive.

 

 

Sorry I don't think rational conversations are possible in these forums. Yes film will probably eventually become obsolete, but RED will have nothing to do with it, and it definitely won't be as soon as you expect it to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well I do not believe Jannard is losing money on anything. Why. Because like a genius he made the RED one look like the end all of cameras with modularity , upgradable, making obsolescence obsolete- words like that thrown out as he pushed the cam and now he makes a better camera where you can put your red ones full 17500.00 cost towards the Epic. But how much will you have to pay 20K, 30K ? on top of the red one because your red one just became obsolete. Who would rent or shoot RED One when epic is around?

 

Everyones who bought a REdone paid $30,000 to be a beta tester. Genius.

 

Jannard is also a genius in getting more money out of your pocket consistently. Thank god for rentals. If I was a Red One purchaser I would be pissed. Total value of red one put towars epic is great but he really should do more for those first 500 Red purchasers at least as they made the company. I bet silently they are stewing not to enrage the leader of the revolution. The only revolution they're seeing now is how easy Jannard can get money from you. Seeing that this is the way he works I would never buy a cam from the company but I will rent the cam as much as I can. Come on boys get the epic out.

 

For all those camera purchasers. To quote Johnny Rotten: Ever feel like you've been cheated?

I wouldn't go so far (I can't go anywhere, right? The big brother is watching us...) though I appreciate the brightness of your thoughts.

 

The same for Jim's inventiveness. As you can read, Tom is posting some clever introductions to the business. Jim's copyright. I'm glad to be his customer.

 

Same time, I agree maybe not with your tone but with the content of your post.

 

But I would prefer your tone 100 times without complaining if I could choose between yours and the other one over there spread out all over reduser.net. I'm referring to the most part of the posters, not the silent ones crossing private mailing.

 

Jim has us too much domesticated. I'm including myself only 'cause I am one of them though silent so often. Even suffering with the stupidity of the majority posting there. Again, not the silent ones. This is not good for anyone. Perhaps RED included. Our future definitely, anyway.

 

Who has the power should understand that listening it's letting the people talk freely. When we have an army of young followers prepared to shoot anyone who may say something against, it's not healthy. And when it's not sane, it's insane. The same for the cult of personality. He doesn't need this. He is a genius. Unfortunately, also a man. Tempted to make money. Tempted to be spoiled.

 

Being a man of hopes and beliefs, I'm still a believer. Who knows if Jim won't low the price of the upgrade from RED ONE to Epic in order to be more camera maker than only money maker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of mis-information here.

 

1. Epic is about $40K and is due early 2009. It is a ground up sensor, board and body design, including ASICs this time.

 

2. If RED ONE owners want to upgrade to Epic, they can. Full $17,500 credit. But they certainly don't have to.

 

3. The RED ONE gets a sensor upgrade in 2009 to the new second generation specs. Cost TBD. Certainly reasonable. RED ONE will be in the line-up for years.

 

4. RED is in business to put professional tools in the hands of many. And it is not a charitable organization. The power of the "and" and the curse of the "or". They are not mutually exclusive. RED is profitable today. Hope that is OK with you...

 

5. 2nd generation sensors (Epic and RED ONE upgrade) have increased DNR and significantly lower read-reset times.

 

6. Stephen... everything about Epic is upgradeable. That shouldn't surprise you or alarm you. Nothing is wrong with our current mount. But we also know that everything can be made better. We are just fully prepared for that eventuality.

 

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, people with RED ONE still have an awesome 4K cinema camera with a 35mm sensor and RAW for under $20K. The camera was awesome yesterday; it is still awesome today. And the Red One is not standing still.

 

It might be better to say $23k, because that seems to the price quoted by many people on REDUser as the minimum cost of a usable RED One camera, although some say $30k in practise. These prices are still good and are realistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, people with RED ONE still have an awesome 4K cinema camera with a 35mm sensor and RAW for under $20K. The camera was awesome yesterday; it is still awesome today. And the Red One is not standing still. Jannard mentioned yesterday that the Red One will get a hardware sensor upgrade soon.

 

How many times have F900 owners been offered upgrades for their sensor?

 

People who own high-end DLSRs, for example, cannot upgrade their sensor... they just have to sit back and watch their camera fall in value and usefulness. At least Red One is upgradeable.

 

 

Tom if you bought a cam tell us honestly if this is what you expected. I bet you didn't. In 2010 it'll be a 6K camera, in 2011 it'll be a 7K camera and so on. 20k or 30k upgrade path each time. So whats different than owning a non upgradable Sony or Panasonic. You still have to pay the money. Man its the same story but different approach.

 

Jannard has too many ideas and is too eager to best the big boys with his deep pockets to sit still. Most of the buyers will scramble, mortgage their homes to keep up with that madness. Have at it if its what you want. But nothings really changed here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lots of mis-information here.

 

1. Epic is about $40K and is due early 2009. It is a ground up sensor, board and body design, including ASICs this time.

 

What is meant by:

 

"FULL FRAME S35MM NEW MYSTERIUM X SENSOR"

 

Does that mean a 4:3 sensor like Arri's D-20, so you can fully use anamorphic lenses?

 

And when you say "ASICs" am I correct to infer that by getting custom chips made, you have gotten the current consumption down to a more comfortable level? That has been a major concern among engineers (at least those who understand these things).

 

And so, the implication is that you can pay extra for Epic, or get your RED One upgraded to similar 5K performance, but still with the somewhat savage power consumption.

 

I can't help thinking what a superb surveillance camera it would make. If it was fitted with one of Panavision's 300x zooms you could just about name your own price to any number of Government agencies :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tom if you bought a cam tell us honestly if this is what you expected. I bet you didn't. In 2010 it'll be a 6K camera, in 2011 it'll be a 7K camera and so on. 20k or 30k upgrade path each time. So whats different than owning a non upgradable Sony or Panasonic. You still have to pay the money. Man its the same story but different approach.

 

I don't think Jim is talking about a $20K or $30K upgrade! He just said about it would be a "reasonable" price. I bet there are a lot of F900 or 1Ds MarkII people out there who would love to get a sensor upgrade rather than buy a whole new camera every few years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think Jim is talking about a $20K or $30K upgrade! He just said about it would be a "reasonable" price. I bet there are a lot of F900 or 1Ds MarkII people out there who would love to get a sensor upgrade rather than buy a whole new camera every few years.

 

I suspect you'll need more than just a sensor change every few years. Since it's basically a sensor connected to a computer, I rather suspect you'd need to upgrade elements of both, so the only thing remaining would be the case. It's rather like upgrading your computer by replacing the electronics etc., but keeping your old case - which mightn't be the cheapest method.

 

As has been pointed out the big saving with RED is that you're buying directly from the manufacturer cutting out the agents, dealers and distributors and many managerial costs of the established brands. Usually manufacturers selling directly charge the same price as a dealer, so as not to accused of undercutting them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No question RED is good value for money. No question they initially cut corners to make the price and resolution numbers work.

Sony did the same thing with f900 only it wasnt cheap!

 

14 bit AD and 14 bit recording would make RED a modern digital camera rather than a low priced high res one with good recording

 

Skarlett form factor and price is more revolutionary than REDone from my shooters perspective.

 

 

At EPIC launch by not announcing significantly different specs to REDone caused consternation, if one is to believe RED user postings.

 

Surely JJ saw the flak comming?

 

5K users spending $40k will be a harder fan base to palcate if there are bugs in the works. Three years on one hopes EPIC wont be released with more than a few critters, 3000 beta testers of RED one is a research base not to be ignored.

 

 

 

 

Mike Brennan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can't help thinking what a superb surveillance camera it would make. If it was fitted with one of Panavision's 300x zooms you could just about name your own price to any number of Government agencies :lol:

Maybe on Scarlet -- Those Panavision zooms are for 2/3" chips, B4 mount. They're also designed for prism blocks rather than single plane imaging.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is meant by:

 

"FULL FRAME S35MM NEW MYSTERIUM X SENSOR"

It means that immediately after you've mortgaged your house to pay for it, a new, "improved" camera will be announced featuring the NEW MYSTERIUM X TURBO GT SENSOR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It means that immediately after you've mortgaged your house to pay for it, a new, "improved" camera will be announced featuring the NEW MYSTERIUM X TURBO GT SENSOR.

 

 

I wrote of the issues RED faced in upgrading vs new cameras in last edition of High Definition Magazine.

 

 

I see after the launch last year Angenieux have release the Optimo "Rouge" lens for new digital cinema cameras....30-80mm pictured with a red balloon:)

"Optimo quality at affordable prices" anyone seen a price?

 

 

 

Mike Brennan

London

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mortgaging your house to pay for Red sounds stupid. What are you going to do take out a 15 year mortgage for a camera that is going to be obsolete in about 5 years? And if you don't make the payments you will be homeless. The Red should be financed just like an automobile and the Red should be its own collateral. Did Henry Ford ever make anyone mortgage their houses to pay for a car?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mortgaging your house to pay for Red sounds stupid. What are you going to do take out a 15 year mortgage for a camera that is going to be obsolete in about 5 years? And if you don't make the payments you will be homeless. The Red should be financed just like an automobile and the Red should be its own collateral. Did Henry Ford ever make anyone mortgage their houses to pay for a car?

 

There are lots of business loan schemes to buy or lease business equipment like a professional camera. Don't buy any professional gear unless your business plan allows to pay it off in a reasonable period from the earnings of the camera. The cost of the Epic is similar to quite a few of the broadcast cameras that professional camera people have owned over the years and also quite a few executive cars. So nothing that new.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tom if you bought a cam tell us honestly if this is what you expected. I bet you didn't. In 2010 it'll be a 6K camera, in 2011 it'll be a 7K camera and so on. 20k or 30k upgrade path each time.

 

Welcome to the way the computer industry has worked for the last couple of decades. Did anyone really expect things to work differently with Red? I've written extensively over the last year about how Red was a big deal precisely because the company was applying computer industry logic to the digital cinematography market.

 

People will deal with this exactly the same way they do in the computer industry. They won't buy every new thing that's released, they'll decide on an upgrade cycle that suits them (three years, whatever) and buy whatever looks best when the cycle rolls around. And people's upgrade cycles will lengthen slowly over time, and the market will shift toward buying lower-priced models, as everything on the market increasingly exceeds most customers' needs. Again, just as we've seen in the computer industry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Welcome to the way the computer industry has worked for the last couple of decades. Did anyone really expect things to work differently with Red? I've written extensively over the last year about how Red was a big deal precisely because the company was applying computer industry logic to the digital cinematography market.

 

People will deal with this exactly the same way they do in the computer industry. They won't buy every new thing that's released, they'll decide on an upgrade cycle that suits them (three years, whatever) and buy whatever looks best when the cycle rolls around. And people's upgrade cycles will lengthen slowly over time, and the market will shift toward buying lower-priced models, as everything on the market increasingly exceeds most customers' needs. Again, just as we've seen in the computer industry.

This drives me freakin' insane. It is my least favorite thing about owning a computer w FCP and all the rest. You NEED to upgrade. It's not a choice. It's virtually impossible for an average computer user (such as myself) to do anything but upgrade all your software periodically or eventually your machine will not work correctly. Then when you call up Tech Support the first thing they tell you is,"You must upgrade before i can help you."

 

And this is exactly what RED is doing. You'll buy the system and it will work fine and then "some problem" will creep up and you'll call up tech support and they will tell you that you need to upgrade. Whether these upgrades are free (for now) or not isn't the point. The point is that your machine will eventually not perform without an upgrade. This is computer tech market logic. And it is very lucrative.

 

The alternative here is to purchase (for a lot more money) either a film camera or a full size HD cam like Sony or Panasonic. These machines will not require future upgrades for proper future performance.

 

Obviously as RED continues with it's success it will slowly change not just how cameras are made but how they are marketed.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have shot with the RED and i've seen it on the Scratch system and it has great capability. I look forward to working with it or cameras like it for the rest of my life. But just like the computer I'm on right now it will periodical piss me off at how i am at the mercy of the market.

 

i'll get off my box now.

 

f

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Welcome to the way the computer industry has worked for the last couple of decades. Did anyone really expect things to work differently with Red? I've written extensively over the last year about how Red was a big deal precisely because the company was applying computer industry logic to the digital cinematography market.

 

People will deal with this exactly the same way they do in the computer industry. They won't buy every new thing that's released, they'll decide on an upgrade cycle that suits them (three years, whatever) and buy whatever looks best when the cycle rolls around. And people's upgrade cycles will lengthen slowly over time, and the market will shift toward buying lower-priced models, as everything on the market increasingly exceeds most customers' needs. Again, just as we've seen in the computer industry.

 

 

Chris there is nothing new in your post except that the REd one was sold as a camera you would never have to do that with. The point of the marketing was making "obsolescence obsolete". The mistake for some was thinking that that quote referred to the REd one. Surprise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris there is nothing new in your post except that the REd one was sold as a camera you would never have to do that with. The point of the marketing was making "obsolescence obsolete". The mistake for some was thinking that that quote referred to the REd one. Surprise.

 

Red has said there will be a sensor upgrade for the Red One next year, so I'm not sure just how much of a "mistake" this was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And this is exactly what RED is doing. You'll buy the system and it will work fine and then "some problem" will creep up and you'll call up tech support and they will tell you that you need to upgrade. Whether these upgrades are free (for now) or not isn't the point. The point is that your machine will eventually not perform without an upgrade. This is computer tech market logic. And it is very lucrative.

 

The alternative here is to purchase (for a lot more money) either a film camera or a full size HD cam like Sony or Panasonic. These machines will not require future upgrades for proper future performance.

 

Um... what you're saying isn't actually true of computers. Sometimes you need to upgrade your hardware if you want to upgrade your software, or vice versa. But if your system works now, it's not going to somehow stop working because you don't upgrade things. It might stop working for some other reason, and tech support might not want to deal with supporting the old version, so they might tell you to upgrade. But I doubt Red will be dropping support for the Red One any time soon, particularly since they've said they're going to sell it alongside the Epic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sometimes you need to upgrade your hardware if you want to upgrade your software, or vice versa.

That's precisely my point. "Sometimes" is enough times and how long does the average person hold on to their computer anyway? The computer industry is not in the business of making computers that last ten or twenty years. And like you said: It's the hardware or the software. Something's got to be upgraded at some point.

 

But I doubt Red will be dropping support for the Red One any time soon, particularly since they've said they're going to sell it alongside the Epic.

 

I expect nothing less of RED to always have proper tech support. I never would suggest anything else. It is in their best interest to continue supplying their costumers with product, upgrades and support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some good points raised on this thread.

 

I think the Computer model comment is relevent to semi pro users, where they are getting cheaper and with more features than the customer wil ever use. But I see pro users still not having the tools we need.

For instance we are still stuck with 8 bit recording on many HD pro cameras, 10 years ago we had 10 bit in SD.

RED is good on one hand in respect to impved specs but has serious ergonomic flaws (ie boot up time)

 

The rendering obsolescent obsolete mantra is looking very tatty. On the basis that the REDone upgrade will not be latest and greatest technology then it is not a new concept, Sony have beeen doing that for years. I upgraded from 4x3 to 16x9 sensor on my 700 camera. SRW is constantly getting upgrades to enable more features as is HDC 1500 and f23.

 

In fact the REDone camera has broken records in that many think it obsolecent before orders taken before launch have been fulfilled!

 

But compared to other camera its tech spec is ahead of the game so I cant think of RED as being obsolecent. 2010 maybe.

 

Mike Brennan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As John Chater told me, and I completely agree; this will put the RED back in the hands od the Rental companies and sort out the enthusiasts from the professionals.

 

Progression is a great thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Broadcast Solutions Inc



    Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS



    Wooden Camera



    Abel Cine



    Just Cinema Gear



    Rig Wheels Passport



    Ritter Battery



    Glidecam



    CineLab



    The Original Slider



    Tai Audio



    Visual Products



    New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment



    Serious Gear



    FJS International



    Paralinx LLC



    Metropolis Post



    G-Force Grips



    Gamma Ray Digital Inc


    Cinematography Books and Gear
×
×
  • Create New...