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Posted

I have 3 Bell and Howell Filmosound 302 Sound Film Projectors and am interested in operating and maintaining them correctly and trying to keep them functional for as long as is possible.

One is an "E" model dating from 1955 - 1958.

One is an "M" model dating from 1963 - 1965. 

One is a "8302", a 302 made and sold in Japan - I am unsure of the year...

But there has been some information that I have seen that there is a drive-gear within the units that are plastic and when they break it is essentially a terminal condition. But also that their use was not consistent throughout the product line over the years but was introduced at some point. So my question to the group is if anyone knows if my units might contain these potentially problematic parts or if they might (hopefully) precede them? Any information on preserving these projectors would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Posted

Simple, stay away from plastic. Pick all-metal products. If in doubt, choose the older. A 1926 Filmo 57 still works today. The Filmosound are quite robust projectors. Pour in oil, everything fine. Although the condensor was disposed of with the reflector lamp a tubular lamp design that allows retraction of condensor and access to the mirror is still useable. Perhaps the most important point about a projector is an open film path, a short film canal, just a design that lets you keep everything clean. A good lateral film guidance is important, too.

Posted

Hello Scott

there are a few groups on Facebook with 16mm film and 16mm projector collectors you can get a load of information about your projectors on them.

There are many of the  Bell and Howell 302 series projectors out there and still running.

the 8302 I have one that is an 8302T the T means that the amplifier has transistors instead of tubes.  

here are some of them:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1614512968786420

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2389639777959698

https://www.facebook.com/groups/171843583376870

Posted
8 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Simple, stay away from plastic. Pick all-metal products. If in doubt, choose the older. A 1926 Filmo 57 still works today. The Filmosound are quite robust projectors. Pour in oil, everything fine. Although the condensor was disposed of with the reflector lamp a tubular lamp design that allows retraction of condensor and access to the mirror is still useable. Perhaps the most important point about a projector is an open film path, a short film canal, just a design that lets you keep everything clean. A good lateral film guidance is important, too.

Thank you for the advisement. I am a big fan of the B&H Filmosound 302 sound projectors but want to be able to keep at least one of them operating for many years to come. I am hoping that my units do not have plastic part failures causing heroic efforts to resurrect. At this point, all I can do is march boldly into the future and see if they hold up - and seek support if things seem to not be operating correctly.  Can you please provide me with a recommendation for type of oil to use on these projectors?  Thanks...

Posted
3 hours ago, John Rizzo said:

Hello Scott

there are a few groups on Facebook with 16mm film and 16mm projector collectors you can get a load of information about your projectors on them.

There are many of the  Bell and Howell 302 series projectors out there and still running.

the 8302 I have one that is an 8302T the T means that the amplifier has transistors instead of tubes.  

here are some of them:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1614512968786420

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2389639777959698

https://www.facebook.com/groups/171843583376870

Thanks for the links, John. I am new to these units but absolutely am a big fan of them. Like everyone else who owns and operates these vintage units, I am just wanting to protect my investment and enjoy their use as long as is possible. 

But I mean, lets face it - who wouldn't want one of these, right? Haha!!

https://youtu.be/_Mz0X9O9ZjY?si=k0SNHYDONZgnnzrT

They are just soooooooo cool!!!

I will check out the Facebook groups that you provided - thanks again for the leads...

 

Posted
3 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Film loop(s) way too large in that video, pity.

A way lube oil is apt, what machinists use with manual lathes.

Thank you, Simon. I will procure some way oil per your advisement.

And I will also be mindful of the film loop lengths moving forward. Thanks for the tip - certainly another nuance to put on the checklist come movie night!

Posted

Greetings Scott!

 

Looking at this thread, I see nobody has answered your original question:

"But there has been some information that I have seen that there is a drive-gear within the units that are plastic and when they break it is essentially a terminal condition. But also that their use was not consistent throughout the product line over the years but was introduced at some point. So my question to the group is if anyone knows if my units might contain these potentially problematic parts or if they might (hopefully) precede them? Any information on preserving these projectors would be appreciated. Thanks."

A quick answer is..... NO, there are no plastic drive-gears in your 302, 8302 projectors. There are no plastic parts in the drive train nor the intermittent movement. (proof below)

While the cracked nylon worm gear was a hot topic way back, those gears were in the successor to the FilmoSound 100-302 projectors, the FilmoSound 500 series. Apparently, the grease used on the gears in the new machines did not mix well with the nylon worm gear, and over time the gear cracked:

maxresdefault-3401117014.jpg

In worse case scenarios, they fell apart, and the projector stopped working. Ouch.

(a shocking photo to scare you).......

maxresdefault-3358208102.jpg

Then service people started making replacement worm gears out of better material. It solved the problem. Yes, changing them out was a real challenge.

Back to the 8302 projectors.......

Lubrication.......

Does your 8302 projectors have the 3 oil cups on the top of the gear box? The earlier ones did. Then B&H came up with the phrase "permanently lubricated" projectors just before they changed over to the 500 series, which were..... permanently lubricated. No more getting oil on your fingers I guess. B&H also did that with their silent 16mm projectors and their popular reg 8mm projector the 122. Jeeeez, how hard is it to put a couple of drops of oil in your expensive projector?🤷‍♂️

Screenshot_2024-07-17_at_9.45.51_AM.png

This info is from a 1970 service manual for the 8302. I have a service manual dated 1958. No mention of 'permanently lubricated' projectors in the earlier manual.

 

No oil cups on gear box....

IMG_3300.jpg

 

Basically,  B&H stopped building their original all metal mechanical projectors and created the new models. This changed occurred in the late '60s and early '70s.

Go to Paul Investor's web site and you will find manuals for the 8302 projectors. There is a manual that is the parts manual, and you can see in the exploded views how your machine is made.

https://www.paulivester.com/films/projector/manuals.htm

One last item, there was another feature on the 8302-L models that may have been standard for that version. I have not seen this on any other projectors. It's the disc at the top of the aperture plate. It is a disc you adjust cropping the top and bottom of the projected frame.

IMG_3308.jpg

B&H 302 & 8302 service manual,

Page 9 - 10    part # 24  'Aperture Plate Assembly, Variable'. Does your machine have that?

So, which model 8302 do you have? I have an 8302-L model with a tube amp that doesn't have oil cups. Does that mean my permanently lubricated projector is still good after 55 some years?

 

Charlie

P.S. Do you have an operating instruction manual for your 8302? I have one, but it's for the earlier 8302 models.

Need it?

 

 

Posted
10 hours ago, Charlie Peich said:

 

Greetings Scott!

 

Looking at this thread, I see nobody has answered your original question:

"But there has been some information that I have seen that there is a drive-gear within the units that are plastic and when they break it is essentially a terminal condition. But also that their use was not consistent throughout the product line over the years but was introduced at some point. So my question to the group is if anyone knows if my units might contain these potentially problematic parts or if they might (hopefully) precede them? Any information on preserving these projectors would be appreciated. Thanks."

A quick answer is..... NO, there are no plastic drive-gears in your 302, 8302 projectors. There are no plastic parts in the drive train nor the intermittent movement. (proof below)

While the cracked nylon worm gear was a hot topic way back, those gears were in the successor to the FilmoSound 100-302 projectors, the FilmoSound 500 series. Apparently, the grease used on the gears in the new machines did not mix well with the nylon worm gear, and over time the gear cracked:

maxresdefault-3401117014.jpg

In worse case scenarios, they fell apart, and the projector stopped working. Ouch.

 

(a shocking photo to scare you).......

maxresdefault-3358208102.jpg

Then service people started making replacement worm gears out of better material. It solved the problem. Yes, changing them out was a real challenge.

Back to the 8302 projectors.......

Lubrication.......

Does your 8302 projectors have the 3 oil cups on the top of the gear box? The earlier ones did. Then B&H came up with the phrase "permanently lubricated" projectors just before they changed over to the 500 series, which were..... permanently lubricated. No more getting oil on your fingers I guess. B&H also did that with their silent 16mm projectors and their popular reg 8mm projector the 122. Jeeeez, how hard is it to put a couple of drops of oil in your expensive projector?🤷‍♂️

Screenshot_2024-07-17_at_9.45.51_AM.png

This info is from a 1970 service manual for the 8302. I have a service manual dated 1958. No mention of 'permanently lubricated' projectors in the earlier manual.

 

No oil cups on gear box....

IMG_3300.jpg

 

Basically,  B&H stopped building their original all metal mechanical projectors and created the new models. This changed occurred in the late '60s and early '70s.

Go to Paul Investor's web site and you will find manuals for the 8302 projectors. There is a manual that is the parts manual, and you can see in the exploded views how your machine is made.

https://www.paulivester.com/films/projector/manuals.htm

One last item, there was another feature on the 8302-L models that may have been standard for that version. I have not seen this on any other projectors. It's the disc at the top of the aperture plate. It is a disc you adjust cropping the top and bottom of the projected frame.

IMG_3308.jpg

B&H 302 & 8302 service manual,

Page 9 - 10    part # 24  'Aperture Plate Assembly, Variable'. Does your machine have that?

So, which model 8302 do you have? I have an 8302-L model with a tube amp that doesn't have oil cups. Does that mean my permanently lubricated projector is still good after 55 some years?

 

Charlie

P.S. Do you have an operating instruction manual for your 8302? I have one, but it's for the earlier 8302 models.

Need it?

 

 

Hi Charlie -

Thanks for the additional clarification. It is good know that the plastic drive gears were only added to the later models than the 300 series.

My projectors are equipped as follows:

Model 8302 - L (also) 3 oil cups -  but no part # 24  'Aperture Plate Assembly, Variable' - speaker mounted on side panel

Model 302 - E - 3 oil cups - and no part # 24  'Aperture Plate Assembly, Variable' - speaker mounted on back panel

Model 302 -M -  No oil cups -  and also no part # 24  'Aperture Plate Assembly, Variable' - speaker mounted on side panel

It would certainly be interesting to know how many 8302's were produced with the variable aperture - and if any units made here in the states had that option...

And yes, I would very much appreciate a 8302 operator's manual. I am new to these projectors and so far have just been trying to get acquainted with them - mostly just by staring at them longingly and with no power plugged in, hahaha!!!

Here is my 302-E, it is the oldest projector of the 3, but is in very good shape. It belonged to a professor at UC-Berkely who apparently kept it in an office closet for several decades and then retired, leaving it to that institution - who then parted with it...

 

image.png.fa28e54d11618b188abba006c3508bd4.png

image.png.b92c605a502269e2f7564b61b247a604.png

 

Do you know how many models were capable of adding sound to magnetic strip single perf sound film and playing optical sound movies?

And yes, I have been to Paul Ivester's website and noted only the 302s and 8302s from the late 1950's to the early 1960's have magnetic sound-film recording capabilities. And I assume that there is very little vintage magnetic film left to purchase and process, and so it is a little-used feature on the projectors, but I think that that is one of the things that makes these particular projectors special (at least in my mind...).

And can you not also hook a mic up to the projector and add your own voice as an overdub on the film (like RCA 'sound-on-sound')? Or does it only pipe it to the speaker?

And the model E also has a more elegant way of routing the main power cord, as the cord is laminated into the housing panels and routed around to the rear panel mounted speaker - although the cord itself does not seem as substantial as those on the other 2 projectors...

But thanks again, Charlie, I like my projectors even more now, hahaha!!

Cheers, Scott

Posted

302 and 8302 operating  instructions

 

Link to pdf file:         

https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:va6c2:cc8d78ab-0353-46d0-a6e8-19b5ebc5be90          

 

 

  • Premium Member
Posted

Just to set a technical detail straight, it’s not lubricants that destroy plastic (worm) gears but the fact that all plastics shrink over time and when warmed. Being sleeves on metal cores these plastic worms crack while ageing.

Posted
13 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Just to set a technical detail straight, it’s not lubricants that destroy plastic (worm) gears but the fact that all plastics shrink over time and when warmed. Being sleeves on metal cores these plastic worms crack while ageing.

Thanks for the additional information, Simon.

Perhaps it was cheaper to manufacture a molded plastic piece than it was to machine a metal worm gear - so once again, the bean-counters screw up some otherwise solid engineering, hahaha!

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