Working in LA

[Adam Frisch FSF]

Come on, Phil. Your attitude will not only end up ruining your career, but ruining yourself. I don't know what your on about.

 

Yes, it's bloody hard to make it in this business. Yes, it takes years. No, we don't all make it. But we all knew that, if not going in then very soon.

 

I firmly believe that one is responsible for one's own success. I didn't know anyone here in London when I arrived 2,5 years ago - now I'm making a living shooting stuff here. So of course it's possible - if I can do it, why can't you? Anything is possible. I mean, when a austrian musclebuilding farmboy can come to America and be the governor of California (and maybe the president if they change the law) - then anything is possible.

[Phil Rhodes]

Why not? Because I lack the ability. I am a complete nobody, I shoot ENG style video and not very well. This is not about me, for the umpteenth time. What I'm worried about is all the new kids coming out of film school and being taken up by this pleasant fantasy that there's even the slightest chance of finding work. Or for that matter I'm worried about people even going into film schools and wasting thousands of pounds.

 

If we can't give them jobs we might as well at least afford them the truth. If my "negativity" is corrosive to people wasting huge amounts of time and money, so be it. I wish someone had told me "no" years ago.

 

Phil

[Chien Huey]

Reading this thread as someone who's pretty low on the totem pole currently, I think both sides have legitmate points.

 

On one hand, from what I've seen the film industry is much more competitive than the computer industry that I spent 8+ years in. The amount of networking and skill building I've had to do even just to land entry-level positions as loader or grip/electric is much more significant than in computers. Not that computer industry jobs grow on trees but it is less involved and once you've gotten a job you're pretty much set. Add to the mix if you're based in an area where film isn't a major industry - the deck is stacked against you. In that sense, Phil has a point.

 

However, Stuart and Adam have a valid point that success is possible. I don't read their posts as unrealistic. They clearly state that hard work, skill and sacrifice is necessary. As obvious as that may seem, I've met lots of people who don't get that point. They think are entitled to well-paying film jobs right from the get go. These are guys who say they want to be directors but don't want to pay dues as a PA, want to be DPs without working their way up (as freebie DPs, ACs or otherwise), etc. I welcome the "optimistic" advice offered here. It tells me that all the networking, showreel shipping and free work I'm doing is part of the process.

 

I've never met you in person Phil, but walking around with a chip on your shoulder isn't good. NY isn't the best place for film (probably not as bad as London) but I roll with the punches and make the best of it. I am moving to LA this summer because as Tim stated it really helps someone w/ few contacts. I scouted the town in Jan and worked on a set for free and made lots of contacts.

 

Granted, I'm a US citizen and moving to LA is easier for me than for a British citizen. However, if working in the industry is what you really want, then whatever you need to do to get there is a small sacrifice. I know a few of my newbie peers who sit at home lamenting their situation. That's not good and Phil your posts might encourage that behavior.

 

Just my two cents. BTW, I really love loading and don't look down on it at all.

[Stuart Brereton]

Why not? Because I lack the ability. I am a complete nobody, I shoot ENG style video and not very well. This is not about me, for the umpteenth time. What I'm worried about is all the new kids coming out of film school and being taken up by this pleasant fantasy that there's even the slightest chance of finding work. Or for that matter I'm worried about people even going into film schools and wasting thousands of pounds.

 

If we can't give them jobs we might as well at least afford them the truth. If my "negativity" is corrosive to people wasting huge amounts of time and money, so be it. I wish someone had told me "no" years ago.

 

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of yourself, and I think it's a shame that it colours everything you say on this forum.

 

However, none of that changes the fact that your opinions are a highly subjective view of a 'worst case scenario'. Luckily, there are plenty of people on this board who can testify that it is not the only scenario, so that others won't be put off without trying. Your experiences are yours and yours alone, but your advice is just sour grapes.

[Hal Smith]

This is a bit of a sidewise look and comment about career promotions and steps-up from someone whose day job is in a field where being at the top of the totem pole can be as difficult to get to as professional DP. My field is radio broadcast engineering. I was teaching Physics at the University of the South when I was asked to take over the Chief Engineering responsibility for the campus FM station as faculty sponsor, no pay, just gratitude. I had a fair amount of electronics experience at this point and had held a ham license from high school. I had no intention at that point of going into broadcast engineering for a living - the men I knew who did that in Chicago were Gods and Gurus - they walked on water while mere mortals at best rented boats.

 

Several years later I went through a divorce, my ex-wife was staying on as the Anthropology Chairman and I was thinking it best to get a job somewhere else, Sewanee's a small school and the academic community is tight knit. I had produced some staged musical works for a student friend, his dad owned a prosperous radio station in a small city. My friend's dad had a Chief Engineer retire unexpectedly for health reasons. I was asked if I was interested in the job since I obviously was competent to take over given my campus FM experience being the "Chief" at the University's station. So I began a new career as "The Chief" - the list of things I didn't understand at first about commercial radio stations was quite lengthy, but I paddled like mad and learned. Over the years I've worked in different markets as a Chief including one of the most prestigious for an engineer to work in. I now have a nice consulting business of my own and make pretty good money at it. This enables me to be in the DIY School of Film without having to worry about making a living.

 

My point is that over the years I had a succession of Assistant Chief Engineers who were technically good enough to be a Chief, even some that were pretty knowledgeable about FCC Rules, etc. But when I moved on, they remained as assistants, management never wanted to take a chance on promoting an assistant - too much of an unknown factor for them. I left one job where they temporarily promoted my assistant to Chief and then hired a new Chief from out of town, that assistant could easily have covered my job, management just wouldn't take him seriously as Chief. Two jobs later he went to work for a major professional audio manufacturing comporation that HAS recognized his talents and abilities - he now runs their worldwide customer service and installation network.

 

Management is the same everywhere for the most part, when they pay good money they don't want to take chances on fresh faces. In the radio business they obsess on issues like being off the air (therefore losing ad income) and in film they obsess on burning a bunch of money on subsequently useless film, talent time, crew time, etc, etc. Therefore they hire the known quantity. I have an immense amount of respect for the Cinematographers who stuck it out and became successful, as well as the men and women who have been content to become the best Loader, Focus Puller, etc. on the face of the earth. I wonder if the best path to DP isn't to take the path that many actors take, to work any job that will put bread on the table while concurrently getting in front of any camera or on any stage they can. If they're good, sooner or later they will get noticed. Opinions?

 

Edmond, OK

[Chien Huey]

I wonder if the best path to DP isn't to take the path that many actors take, to work any job that will put bread on the table while concurrently getting in front of any camera or on any stage they can. If they're good, sooner or later they will get noticed. Opinions?

 

I think the great thing about this field is that there is no one "best path". From what the more experienced folks have written on this topic previously (in this and other threads), there's a variety of ways to get to DP. It's good because otherwise I'd stress about whether or not to take that key grip gig because I might get pigeon-holed as a key grip. Now I do it because it's fun and in the long run one key grip gig isn't gonna make or break you.

 

That said, working a day job(s) that's flexible enough for you to work as many projects as possible is a good way to go. After all, cinematography is a trade and to maintain your skills, let alone advance, you have to continually work whether it's for free, low pay or otherwise. Plus, as you get better, your reel gets better which helps you get better jobs.

[Hal Smith]

I think the great thing about this field is that there is no one "best path". From what the more experienced folks have written on this topic previously (in this and other threads), there's a variety of ways to get to DP. It's good because otherwise I'd stress about whether or not to take that key grip gig because I might get pigeon-holed as a key grip. Now I do it because it's fun and in the long run one key grip gig isn't gonna make or break you.

 

That said, working a day job(s) that's flexible enough for you to work as many projects as possible is a good way to go. After all, cinematography is a trade and to maintain your skills, let alone advance, you have to continually work whether it's for free, low pay or otherwise. Plus, as you get better, your reel gets better which helps you get better jobs.

 

With the good marketing sense to describe yourself as "Fast Cheiney" the gaffer, I suspect you're working most of the time!

 

Hal

[Tenolian Bell]

NY isn't the best place for film (probably not as bad as London) but I roll with the punches and make the best of it. I am moving to LA this summer....

 

Actually production in NY is booming. New York only ranks second behind Los Angeles in over all production days. In 2005 the number of television pilots shooting in the city tripled the number of features shooting has doubled.

 

NY is different from LA in that filmmaking is one of many industries and not even one of the largest industries. Filmmaking is looked at as one of the several artforms and held to no higher regard than painting, writing, dancing, or architecture.

 

Much of the commerce of the film industry is handled in LA as well as much of the decisions making. If you have aspirations of being hired as a department head (DP) to a large studio project, then it is imperative to be known in the Hollywood studio system. Other than that there are many people working outside of LA.

 

What is considered an indie film in LA generally has one or two known actors, has been supported through the system by a powerful director or producer, and cost around 2.5 million to produce.

 

In the NY indie scene that would be considered a very well funded and well positioned film for mainstream success.

 

On the other side of that even though most indie films in NY are not as well funded, there is a much larger audience for them. A small film with no name actors and no name director based on its content has a better than average opportunity to gain an audience and find success in NY. From what I?ve seen in LA such a film has very little chance to receive the same type of audience.

[Morgan Peline]

Because I lack the ability. I am a complete nobody, I shoot ENG style video and not very well... I wish someone had told me "no" years ago.

 

You have only yourself to blame and you deserve everything that you achieve.

 

There are many very respected, good DPs out there who were not that creatively talented, they just worked really hard to make the most of what they had. Which is in fact the exact kind of mind set that you need to be a creative filmmaker.

 

One day when you get old and grey and look upon your past life, I really hope that you don't turn around and go...Gee, I wish someone had told me "no" years ago. Because that is exactly the kind of mindset that people who never get anywhere have. They always turn around and blame somebody else, they never take responsibility for themselves. Sure life is hard but you can at least try to head in the right direction.

 

If you want to light , then light, who cares if you feel you have talent or not. Just do it, then do again and then do it again. I shoot because I love it. I don't care if I'm good or not, that's not the point. It's something that finally I've found that I love doing.

 

Years and years ago before I discovered film, I used to be in sales and marketing. If I had been really clever before doing what I do now, I should have said to myself :

 

'Hum, I should follow Phil's really, really intelligent practical advice and stay in this crappy, soul destroying job because at least I have a regular boring salary and that way I can buy my nice boring suburban house and put nice boring suburban home things in it so that I can feel like I'm getting something back for sitting on my ass every day, talking to a bit of plastic stuck to my ear all the time, staring at a cathode ray tube that hurts my eyes in a bright, flatly lit fluorescent office, day in day out, wasting my life away waiting until I get old enough to retire in order to find a hobby a really like doing just a few years before I die.

 

No! Don't risk it all and have fun and excitement travelling all over the country shooting creative stories knowing full well you might fall flat on your face and become bankrupt. No! Don't have fun, don't do it! If you do, you might never actually own your own house. What a travesty that would be. The grandchildren would be very upset that they had nothing to sell off to pay for their holidays after you die.'

 

...I wish someone had told me there was an alternative to crappy office jobs that the rest of the drones go to.

 

Life wasn't right, I was very unhappy, now I am paying my dues and I have never been happier in my even though I know it will be very difficult finding paid work when I leave. Which you relish in bringing up everytime this subject crops up.

 

I just shot a short on HDCAM for the first time in my life, made a lot of mistakes, but I had a whale of a time. Once I shoot a short on 35mm Anamorphic then I'll be really happy. Onwards and upwards, hopefully.

 

If you want to see yourself as a loser go right ahead and do it. No one's going to stop you. Most other people are too busy figuring out how to make possible that incredibly tough impossible shot that the director keeps talking about. They work hard and make the best of what they got.

 

All you ever do is whine:

 

'The film industry is crap.'

'I don't have any talent.'

'Film school is crap'

'I never get to shoot film'

'I don't know how to light.'

'All I ever do are crappy corporates'

 

...whine, whine, whine.

 

It's really strange, I usually rteally go out of my way to avoid negative people like you.

Yet in some perverse masochist way I am drawn to your posts just to see what new stupid thing you are going to say. Or are you some kind of obssessive compulsive who say the same thing over and over again? Life is hard enough already without some guy constantly sending negative vibes down the wires.

 

You have only yourself to blame and you deserve everything that you achieve.