Kidulthood

[Daniel Smith]

I thought the micro-elements of this film were complete shod. But the actual representation of how things are in England were brilliant.

 

I don't know why this film has got 4.7 on IMDB. When looking at a lot of the neo-realism films such as 'The Bicycle Thieves', it's not all that different. And 'The Bicycle Thieves' is considered a classic.

 

The story line complexion is similar. And so are the micro-elements.

 

A lot of Americans and people from other countries see England as a place full of posh people, but it's quite the opposite.

 

And by the way, life isn't just like this in London. It's in most areas of England.

 

 

Anything you would like to comment on about this movie?

 

 

p.s. A quick note to David Mullen if you are reading this, or anyone else actually, if you are still interested in knowing what chavs are, this film is full of them. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

 

(but not all them of them are like that, just most, they seem to think they are Nigerian gangsters or something)

[Tomas Koolhaas]

If anyone wants to know what a "Chav" is just go to www.chavscum.co.uk -it's hillarious.

[Daniel Smith]

If anyone wants to know what a "Chav" is just go to www.chavscum.co.uk -it's hilarious.

Yeh, I'll agree on that one :lol:

 

When and where was Bicycle Thieves made, Daniel? What was the context? It wasn't made by smug middle class Brits at a time when the horse had been flogged to death, that's for sure.

It's just the fact that 'The Bicycle Thieves' detracted away from typical Hollywood style, and tried to be as realistic as possible. To represent what life was like. And didn't end in a typical Hollywood style.

 

Kidulthood was practically the same thing.

 

I actually found the film made me angry more than anything. Considering I went through school along side chavs, I know what they are like. So it affected me personally more than most films do. Even if it wasn't a very well made film.

 

For instance, that scene where Sam walks up behind that Katie girl and spits on the back of her head. Just made me really angry watching it.

 

Glad you are getting something out of media studies and you are at least asking questions. No doubt soon you'll be sipping Lattes with Max at a Tarkovsky weekend. ;)

All part of growing out of 'kidulthood'. Only problem was, I made it rather difficult for myself?

 

And as for Max.. We've had our disagreements in the past, but I'll always thank him for teaching me one of the most important lessons I've ever learned on this board.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Daniel Ashley-Smith

[Andy_Alderslade]

I'm sure when you're a little older, you'll appreciate Chav's for adding a bit of colour to society. Though I must admit when I think of my old classmates (rich kids who were trying to be 'street') I don't think I could ever think of them in a possitive light.

 

I haven't seen Kidulthood, but I admit comparing it with The Bycicle Thieves sounds a little unusual. Perhaps a better comparison for a British Bycicle Thieves would be Wonderland by Michael Winterbottom - a more sober but quite kinetic film about a group of real Londoners. Its shot on Super 16, often push processed, with only available light - its a modern kind of realism.

 

I know Kidulthood was shot by the brilliant Brian Tuffano so i'm sure the usual excellent visual standards are there.

 

I see what you mean, the whole world seems to think the British are posh and polite - i'd like them to see the typical town or city centre on a friday/saturday night.

 

Just a note the director of Kidulthood directed 'Is Harry on the Boat?' tv film, which is supprisingly decent look at Ibiza reps and all the auful things the Brits do when abroad. I'm sure it would make a great companion piece to Room with a View.

 

 

Go and see Children of Men, its a directed by a mexican but brings up some interesting questions about this country and its current political issues.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Andy_Alderslade

[Jon-Hebert Barto]

If anyone wants to know what a "Chav" is just go to www.chavscum.co.uk -it's hillarious.

 

 

I went to this site and found it funny(clothing :lol: ), but I still have no idea what a 'chav' is. Is this word short for something? Completely lost Texan here. Help a friend out...

 

It just looks like white kids that ape hip-hop fashion to me....am I missing something? Are they basically rich uneducated kids running around or what? Do they annunciate? Can they count? They look like football thugs who wear the latest Tommy....funny, indeed.

 

 

What the hell is it? Help....

[Patrick McGowan]

So the "chavs" buy expensive track suits, mobile phones, and jewelry?

 

That's not exactly poor.

 

Come to an American public school! That is where you will find the actual people these "chavs" are trying to immitate. Go to a school with metal detectors.

 

Then you too might see British people as "posh."

[Jon-Hebert Barto]

What are you talking about? Everyone here has said "rich" enough times to spin Bill Gates head around twice!

 

Everyone knows they wear expensive (yet gauche) clothing....rich kids here do the same immitation routine, copping black youth style. I guess it happens everywhere?

 

I still need to know what 'chav' means. Anyone?

Edited October 1, 2006 by Jon-Hebert Barto

[Andy_Alderslade]

I went to this site and found it funny(clothing :lol: ), but I still have no idea what a 'chav' is. Is this word short for something? Completely lost Texan here. Help a friend out...

 

It just looks like white kids that ape hip-hop fashion to me....am I missing something? Are they basically rich uneducated kids running around or what? Do they annunciate? Can they count? They look like football thugs who wear the latest Tommy....funny, indeed.

What the hell is it? Help....

 

A 'Chav' or similar term 'Townie' can be either a man or woman of any age who is generally of a traditional working class origin, but perhaps not necessarily financialy restricted. This is where the old british class sytem is both present and breaking down, as many of the designer labels - t-shirts, caps, tracsuits, jewlrey are actually very expensive - however such people are generally have a bad reputation for violence, drinking/socialising, being very into football, as well as lacking interest in education, literature, science and the arts.

 

Its kind of a bad term to use, its somewhat predudicial, i personaly don't like using it - though do find myself using it when a group of teens ruin my experience of watching The Children of Men for the first time.

 

Come to an American public school! That is where you will find the actual people these "chavs" are trying to immitate. Go to a school with metal detectors.

 

Well if America banned guns and restricted the sale of knives then mayb you American's could be posh too! ;)

[Patrick McGowan]

Everyone knows they wear expensive (yet gauche) clothing....rich kids here do the same immitation routine, copping black youth style. I guess it happens everywhere?

 

 

I admit I forgot to mention all the white kids that do the same thing here in the U.S. that's true, and really annoying.

 

My public school didn't have metal detectors, but it was still poop.

[Jon-Hebert Barto]

A 'Chav' or similar term 'Townie' can be either a man or woman of any age who is generally of a traditional working class origin, but perhaps not necessarily financialy restricted. This is where the old british class sytem is both present and breaking down, as many of the designer labels - t-shirts, caps, tracsuits, jewlrey are actually very expensive - however such people are generally have a bad reputation for violence, drinking/socialising, being very into football, as well as lacking interest in education, literature, science and the arts.

 

Its kind of a bad term to use, its somewhat predudicial, i personaly don't like using it - though do find myself using it when a group of teens ruin my experience of watching The Children of Men for the first time.

Well if America banned guns and restricted the sale of knives then mayb you American's could be posh too! ;)

 

 

To me, a rich white kid who apes the style of inner city youth(black) and talk like they grew up in a ghetto(even though they dont have exposure to the culture beyond a cd) need a butt kicking. It's like putting on black-face....Basically I'm saying, to me, it is mocking a culture in a twisted way.

 

They do it to be cool not to mock, I know. However it comes off as so generic and rediculous and fake that its more like 'play-acting' a black person. Like when little kids used to buy toy guns and dress up as cowboys, but this is just sick...

Again, its like 'impersonating' a stereotyped african american or something.

 

I don't know, I think if I were black I'd be annoyed and maybe offened by this 'white' behaviour. I guess 'skateboard' culture isn't cool enough to white kids anymore, they have to emulate murderers who make a living rapping on albums. Sad.

 

Maybe this is more of a white/youth american thing. I actually have been called the "N" word by a white kid before. True. He said in a "friendly" jesture(as is so popular today..)but I still wanted to kick his ass. Very upsetting. What the hell is wrong these days? The world has gone mad in more ways than war!

[Tomas Koolhaas]

I think people are getting confussed about what a 'Chav' is.

The term 'Chav' doesn't articulate someone's income or even class status (although most Chavs are poor and working class) it is based on attitude, clothing, speach and behaviour....most poor young males in the UK aren't chavs...but most Chavs are poor young males....anyone can be a chav (hence the inclusion of Mike skinner and other rich celebs. in the chavlist on chavscum) if you wear only burberry, sovereign rings, get your 15 year old girlfreind pregnant, rob old grannies and commit sensless crimes like vandalizm and hang out all day in the streets making a nuisance of yourself instead of going to school you are defineatley a Chav.

It is hard for Americans to really grasp what a Chav is, there is no American equivilent....England has a very distinct subculture of thuggishness which is not limited to the periphery of society (Criminals) but engulfs a large part of the youth culture in the UK, it is not about mimicing any other race or culture (although many chavs use a lot of Jamaican slang) it is about a general lack of intelligence, class (not in the heirarchichal sense) culture and honour (chavs always commit cowardly crimes; jumping someone or robbing old people) that the english acceptance of casual violence seems to breed in many of the young people.

I used to knock about with some very dodgy characters and went to a rough school, and got into my fair share of scrapes (you can hardly avoid it in London) so at times people may have called me a Chav, but I never used to commit senseless cowardly crimes that are the calling card of the Chav, or wear sovereigns and burberry, also the term Chav. never existed when I was a teen, we used to call them "Street rats" because of their vermin like actions/behaviour and the fact that they were ALWAYS on the street up to no good no matter what time/day it was. The expensive clothing doesn't mean they are rich either, if you sell drugs or spend your entire dole check on clothes you can afford a fair bit of designer clobber.

Cheers.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Tomas Koolhaas

[Jon-Hebert Barto]

Sweet expository! There should be a anthropology course about these characters. :lol:

 

Still, where does 'chav' come from? What is its origination word?

Edited October 2, 2006 by Jon-Hebert Barto

[Justin Hayward]

I've never heard the term either. Is "Ali G" considered to be making fun of "chavs"?

[Tomas Koolhaas]

No-one knows were Chav originated from, here are two possible explenations I found:

 

 

"So, who coined such a sneeringly useful term? Well, the pupils of Cheltenham Ladies College, apparently.

Rumour in the town has it that chav is derived from Cheltenham Average, the name given by the young ladies to the less-eligible young men of the town."

 

"Most likely the term `chav´comes from the Spanish `chaval´ meaning `guy´, `kid´(in the sense of bloke, chap).

Probably the disco-going British on Ibiza picked it up there."

 

I also heard a term "Charver" a while ago that basically meant the same as Chav. so it could have just been abreviated to Chav???

 

Ali-G mostly pokes fun at white guys who mimic jamaican slang/culture, I believe the term "Wigger" is used to described their type in the US, there's no particular name for them that I am aware of in the UK, Chavs are mostly white and dont particularly pretend to be any other race or culture, they only attempt to be as unpleasent as humanly possible.

[Daniel Smith]

Ok, I'll try and give people a good idea of their character.

 

Chavs will only cause trouble if they are in groups. They would never pick a fight unless they had a good number of people backing them up. They are cowards.

 

They hate the police, end of.

 

They can be either black or white. Doesn't matter.

 

They like to speak in Nigerian accents. Not all, but some.

 

'Charver' is the term used for them mainly up in the north of England.

 

They like to wear hoodies or caps (or both) both indoor and outdoor, they like to think they are hiding their face because the police are after them or something. (Even though they are not)

 

Ali G is taking the pi** out of them, but chavs are too thick to realise he is, they actualy see him as a role model.

 

For whoever has seen 'The Layer Cake', the Dukes group is what could be considered chavs.

 

 

Some videos:

 

Real Chavs:

 

Guy taking pee out of chavs, does it really well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRc5yipGTYk&NR

(The only un-realistic thing about this clip is that he sounds too sharp for a chav)

 

 

 

And finally, a lovely picture of some chavs. Full of scummy, chavy goodness:

 

http://www.chavscum.co.uk/4images/details.php?image_id=1608

 

 

EDIT: Just a quick note, I think the American equivalent of chavs are called 'Neds'.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Daniel Ashley-Smith

[John Holland]

If any wants to see loads of "chavs" in action ,come to the chavsville, know as Croydon , very worrying . Thatchers childrens , children . This country is finished . John Holland .

[Andy_Alderslade]

For goodness sake, give theem a break, their kids at the end of the day. Not everyone is brought up in an enviroment where the're encouraged to read, watch plays and films.

 

Some people hide in the pack, and SOME behave badly under that banner, but not all.

 

But you can't just assume that every chav, is a cowardly criminal. For goodness sake some are simply hiding in uniform - they're equal humane beings to you and I. What about 'squadieds' the're essentialy Chavs in uniform yet, the're serving in some of the most violent and frightening places on the planet.

 

Daniel has the right to be angry with his class mates, but the rest of this discussion is roaming into bigotry.

 

If Huckleberry Finn was based today in the London Road Estate, Canterbury he'd probably be classed as a Chav.

[Daniel Smith]

It's mainly when people stereotype, that's what gets me (And admittedly, I've just done it myself). As I said in a few posts back, some of my best mates are chavs. But it's not like they go around in groups thinking they are drunk after a lager shandy, starting fights with people just walking down the street.

 

I've more or less gone against myself in this thread. I generally don't call any group of people chavs, emos, grungers or whatever. If a chav starts on me, I much prefer to just call them an a**hole, instead of a chav.

 

I've been called a chav before, for wearing white trainers and tracksuit gear. If I'm a chav for wearing what I feel comfortable in, then I'm a chav. But I get seriously annoyed when I get treated as though I've just mugged a 90 year old women or something.

 

So, I can somewhat imagine how they feel. Although, most of the time, what they do isn't because of that. Most of the time it's because they genuinely are, buttholes.

 

But, before I turn all pro-chav, I will still say that the majority of them are buttholes. That's not stereotyping or lashing out in anger. If I've ever been started on or had something done to me for no reason, it has always been by a chav.

 

 

 

But, anyway. So has anyone here seen Kidulthood?

 

Oh and, Andy, I'll definatelly go see that Children of Men when I can, saw a preview on that Jonathon Ross film review program, looks pretty awesome.

 

Cheers.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Daniel Ashley-Smith

[Tomas Koolhaas]

For goodness sake, give theem a break, their kids at the end of the day. Not everyone is brought up in an enviroment where the're encouraged to read, watch plays and films.

 

Some people hide in the pack, and SOME behave badly under that banner, but not all.

 

But you can't just assume that every chav, is a cowardly criminal. For goodness sake some are simply hiding in uniform - they're equal humane beings to you and I. What about 'squadieds' the're essentialy Chavs in uniform yet, the're serving in some of the most violent and frightening places on the planet.

 

Daniel has the right to be angry with his class mates, but the rest of this discussion is roaming into bigotry.

 

If Huckleberry Finn was based today in the London Road Estate, Canterbury he'd probably be classed as a Chav.

 

Andy,

What?? bigotry, you have got this backwards my man..."not every chav is a cowardly criminal" -you seem to be confused, all working class kids who dress a certain way aren't Chavs, some of whom are cowardly criminals, only cowardly criminals are called Chavs! most of whom happen to be working class kids. As I said I went to a rough school and got into many scrapes when I was young, but I was never a chav because I never was a cowardly pointless nuisence, the point is it is impossible to say Chavs aren't "cowards, stupid , or criminals" because only people who fit those descriptions are defined as Chavs...you get me?

Also, Daniel you must be confussed, Chavs dont speak with Nigerian accents, not many people in London do (outside of actual Nigerians) some poeple use Jamaican slang, but most people in london do, I know I still do; "Wicked", "safe" "bate" "aggy""blood"and "bredrin" are all slang terms derived from Jamaica, I dont know one person from London who doesnt/hasn't used some of them frequently at some point (and thats what Ali-G incorporated into his "act", nothing at all to do with Nigerians).

Cheers.

[Daniel Smith]

Also, Daniel you must be confussed, Chavs dont speak with Nigerian accents, not many people in London do (outside of actual Nigerians) some poeple use Jamaican slang, but most people in london do, I know I still do; "Wicked", "safe" "bate" "aggy""blood"and "bredrin" are all slang terms derived from Jamaica, I dont know one person from London who doesnt/hasn't used some of them frequently at some point (and thats what Ali-G incorporated into his "act", nothing at all to do with Nigerians).

Cheers.

Well... whatever, accents along those lines.

[Tomas Koolhaas]

Well... whatever, accents along those lines.

 

 

Mate,

Be careful...that doesn't sound very smart..Nigeria is in Africa and Jamaica is in the west indies, the accents sound NOTHING at all alike, the only similarity is that both countries are majority black populations, don't lump the two together, it's not accurate and doesn't reflect well on you.

Cheers.

[Andy_Alderslade]

Andy,

What?? bigotry, you have got this backwards my man..."not every chav is a cowardly criminal" -you seem to be confused, all working class kids who dress a certain way aren't Chavs, some of whom are cowardly criminals, only cowardly criminals are called Chavs!

 

I think your understanding of what a Chav is is very different from my own, or of any one I know. Someone who dresses, and acts in certain way, certainly not specificly a cowardly criminal could be refered to as a 'chav' - if anything a chav is 'loutish,' likely to break a few laws after to much to drink, but gernerally I only hear it as a term used to describe someone who lacks class or sophistication.

 

I noticed your signature said you are in Los Angelies, is it possible the word has changed meaning since you lived in the UK.

 

I can't believe we're having a discussion about the definition of the word 'Chav!'

 

With regards to the US question does Chav = White Trash?

[Daniel Smith]

Mate,

Be careful...that doesn't sound very smart..Nigeria is in Africa and Jamaica is in the west indies, the accents sound NOTHING at all alike, the only similarity is that both countries are majority black populations, don't lump the two together, it's not accurate and doesn't reflect well on you.

Cheers.

Ok, point taken.

Edited October 3, 2006 by Daniel Ashley-Smith

[Matthew Buick]

GRRRRRR, I hate chavs, they smashed up my camcorder,

 

Matthew Buick - speaking to you from Newcastle upon Tyne (where Chavs were invented).

Edited October 3, 2006 by Matthew Buick

[Daniel Smith]

GRRRRRR, I hate chavs, they smashed up my camcorder

What happened?