Gavin Greenwalt Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 More prototype testing this time outdoors. Kind of. Looks like it's a beautiful cloudy day, but it is outside. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=76605 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 I'd rather they show a pic taken when the sun is out, to get an idea how this camera handles contrast. A low-con pic like this is not very telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arni Heimir Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 It looks good. But I am interested what will happen after Oct 31 (today) for those who are interest in purchasing the camera. will the price increase or the delivery be much later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Mottram Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 As Max says this gives no indication of highlight handling and thats it, flat lighting demonstrates nothing more than studio. plus is it just me or does anyone else feel a small lump of vomit move up their windpipe everytime they go on that site... "that lens might be okay, but it will never measure up to the cheaper, lighter and optically superior red lens", "every production needs a 300mm lens, but no one realised it before Jim gave us this fantastic opertunity", "thanks Jim, your gorgeous", "please Jim I promise I'll swallow" etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Holland Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Anyone have idea why the milk bottle is soft , whilst face is sharp, when both seem to be on the same plane ?? John Holland ,London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Anyone have idea why the milk bottle is soft , whilst face is sharp, when both seem to be on the same plane ?? John Holland ,London. the common filmmaker uses the term motionblur to describe the softened look which moving objects have when not being static while being shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Terner Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 Perhaps the light conditions don't allow the full latitude of the camera to be displayed but the image certainly looks very very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 As Max says this gives no indication of highlight handling and thats it, flat lighting demonstrates nothing more than studio. aha. sir, i beg to differ. in comparing this shot to the results of our arri 35 and sony cinealta i can see: - amount of grain/noise. excellent, almost none. - DOF: 35mm. - color reproduction & tonal balance. this is crucial for digital cinematography. good skins, everything in order here. - lattitude. look below the bus, you will see lots of different details in the shadow levels. the shadow of the tire over the bus shadow. experienced eyes would conclude some things... - lenses. the absence of lumatic and chromatic aberrations tell me that we have some good glass in front of frankenred. - much other things. ccould it be that you have a negative bias? plus is it just me or does anyone else feel a small lump of vomit move up their windpipe everytime they go on that site... Hm, no, but then i don´t have so many aggressions. do you often have "a small lump of vomit move up your windpipe "? "that lens might be okay, but it will never measure up to the cheaper, lighter and optically superior red lens", "every production needs a 300mm lens, but no one realised it before Jim gave us this fantastic opertunity", "thanks Jim, your gorgeous", "please Jim I promise I'll swallow" etc... i suppose that hostile comments as this one are one of the main reasons for many filmmakers of not frequenting this board often anymore . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Holland Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Dont think thats motion blur .John Holland ,London Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 aha. sir, i beg to differ. in comparing this shot to the results of our arri 35 and sony cinealta i can see:- amount of grain/noise. excellent, almost none. - DOF: 35mm. - color reproduction & tonal balance. this is crucial for digital cinematography. good skins, everything in order here. - lattitude. look below the bus, you will see lots of different details in the shadow levels. the shadow of the tire over the bus shadow. experienced eyes would conclude some things... - lenses. the absence of lumatic and chromatic aberrations tell me that we have some good glass in front of frankenred. - much other things. The point is that this image does not reveal anything more than what was already visible at the IBC screening. One certainly would wish that they had shot under sone more challenging lighting conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 Hi, The left side of the bottle is clipped, as is the top of the scrunched-up paper. It's fine, but it's nothing particularly special. I think that's really all people are saying. Fine. But not special. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Dont think thats motion blur .John Holland ,London if you rule out dof & mb, what else should it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Holland Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I dont know that is why i asked ??? John Holland ,London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 (edited) The point is that this image does not reveal anything more than what was already visible at the IBC screening. besides small details that this shot uses natural daylight and the IBC shot were artificial light... One certainly would wish that they had shot under some more challenging lighting conditions. no hurry. when they can keep in their schedule (which IMHO would be another small miracle) there will be ~20 prototypes end of the year. btw: the IBC shots, especially the porsche with arri in front of it, are somewhat challenging. you can download them at www.red.com. I dont know that is why i asked ??? John Holland ,London. why do you rule out the obvious? :) Edited October 31, 2006 by jan von krogh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Nattress Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 If you open up the JPEG in photoshop and examine the values of the regions you describe as being clipped, I think you'll find that a) they're not clipped and B) by adjusting the black level, you'll find that they're still holding detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 It looks good. But I am interested what will happen after Oct 31 (today) for those who are interest in purchasing the camera. will the price increase or the delivery be much later? they won´t take orders until ~april 2007 from there on. They hinted that reservation holders will get additional benefits, but nothing very important - "nothing which would force you into ordering while the reservation time". btw, they were at 700-800 orders last week. many of the large rental houses like otto nemenz ordered the maximum of 5, we will only get 2 - if they ship :) If you open up the JPEG in photoshop and examine the values of the regions you describe as being clipped, I think you'll find that a) they're not clipped and B) by adjusting the black level, you'll find that they're still holding detail. the discreet systems, tektronix measurement and class 1 709 monitor here confirm this :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 besides small details that this shot uses natural daylight and the IBC shot were artificial light... So that tells me that they either used a filter or adjusted the color-temperature in post. Just like with any other film or video cameras as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Mottram Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 If you open up the JPEG in photoshop and examine the values of the regions you describe as being clipped, I think you'll find that a) they're not clipped and B) by adjusting the black level, you'll find that they're still holding detail. Okay done that and now in an extremely illogical thread jump can you shed any light on whats happening with Final Touch please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 So that tells me that they either used a filter or adjusted the color-temperature in post. Just like with any other film or video cameras as well... you are speaking in riddles. do you refer to the studio or outside shots? however, if you would read; mr. jannard wrote when publishing the image : "No dead pixel correction, no noise reduction, no sharpening, no Photoshop tweaking... straight out of REDCINE." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Chad Stockfleth Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 As Max says this gives no indication of highlight handling and thats it, flat lighting demonstrates nothing more than studio. plus is it just me or does anyone else feel a small lump of vomit move up their windpipe everytime they go on that site... "that lens might be okay, but it will never measure up to the cheaper, lighter and optically superior red lens", "every production needs a 300mm lens, but no one realised it before Jim gave us this fantastic opertunity", "thanks Jim, your gorgeous", "please Jim I promise I'll swallow" etc... Seems that their site is overly flattering while ours is overly critical. Personally I'd rather be on the critical site, though some people could be nicer about it. Framegrab looks ok. I'm with Max that we need a high contrast shot. The milk still looks over exposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Seems that their site is overly flattering while ours is overly critical. Personally I'd rather be on the critical site, though some people could be nicer about it. there is a difference between being critical and having no manners. Framegrab looks ok. I'm with Max that we need a high contrast shot. The milk still looks over exposed. the milk isn´t overexposed. in the orginal thread on DVXUSER.COM you can find CCed images on page 5 who show this, additionally downloading the image and measuring it will show you that even the 8bit datareduced jpeg (not the 12bit orginal raw) still hold the detail in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Keith Mottram Posted October 31, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted October 31, 2006 however, if you would read; mr. jannard wrote when publishing the image : "No dead pixel correction, no noise reduction, no sharpening, no Photoshop tweaking... straight out of REDCINE." And low and behold the mesiah spoke. to paraphrase "he's not the mesiah he's a very nice billionaire". look this is insane do you not have a questioning bone in your body? i have nothing against this product and will use it if it is great and in the mean time critisise it in the same way i would any other camera (greanted I am a big fan of the D20 then again there is the small point that I've both used it, edited it and graded the footage. and if your interested when i posted some stills they were heavilly critisised as well. )... and why do you think that critically examining a product is somehow a negative idea? the whole point of this forum is critical analysis and education. your need to back up the gaping wholes in your knowledge with technical name dropping borders on the rediculous. "comparing this shot to the results of our arri 35 and sony cinealta" what are you on about? how on earth can you conceveibly compare three completely different systems without a side by side shoot out. and you confirmed what exactly with your tektronix whatever and your class 1 709??? I tell you what i put the image through my mark twelve quantel flux neutron capacitor and it told me the jpeg looked like something i shot with my D5 when i was attended last years 'ooh saucy one, are those really milk jugs?' convention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 The milk still looks over exposed. Although not neccesarily any more than you'd get with a Spirit transfer... (maybe someone should try Power Windows or similar on it, see if any detail is recoverable...) Otherwise it looks remarkably similar to an image from a ~ 12mp CMOS camera, now call me crazy.... -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan von krogh Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 (edited) Although not neccesarily any more than you'd get with a Spirit transfer... (maybe someone should try Power Windows or similar on it, see if any detail is recoverable...) done - discreet DI instead of spirit however. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=7...mp;postcount=48 Otherwise it looks remarkably similar to an image from a ~ 12mp CMOS camera, now call me crazy.... only guessing, could it be because it is a 12MP CMOS camera? Any ou are certainly not crazy, i had the same impression :) Edited October 31, 2006 by jan von krogh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Hunter Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Gotta say this thread is a hoot. This is one compressed screen grab, we are all looking at it on monitors that represent its tone and hue etc, differently and tring to pick the thing apart, good comedy. JVK takes the cake though: - lattitude. look below the bus, you will see lots of different details in the shadow levels. the shadow of the tire over the bus shadow. experienced eyes would conclude some things... yes, experienced eyes do conclude some things First conclusion: You don't understanding that a sensor's lattitude and the representation of different densities of grey on a computer screen are two different things. Second conclusion: You must have information that the rest of us do not. We have no information at all as to what f stop was used, or the light levels in various areas of the image such as under the bus. We could be looking at a 9 stop tonal range from white to black or a 4 stop range and we'd never know. Since no objective lighting information was provided your buss shadow tells us nothing about the lattitude of the sensor. Observation: You are eager to condescend to someone who makes a legit point for the sake of marketing, which leads me to the . . . Third conclusion: You are working for Karl Rove. I love to learn about new products as much as the next guy but come on. If the image was posted for the sake of educating us as to the ability (good or bad) of the Red camera it would have at least provided lighting info. Vector scope and wave form info would be nice as well, then we would know if those highlights are actually blown out or not and we would know the tonal range of the exposure in terms of lighting values. That sort of thing might actually be helpfull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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