Why Red causes conflict, and the future of filmmaking

[Max Jacoby]

Whoops I was actually meaning IMAX, but I just looked it up and that's 70mm. I was wrong any way you slice it. :)

The negative is 65mm, the print stock is 70mm (the added 5mm are for the soundtrack).

 

Personally I'm not too fond of IMAX for narrative work, because of the huge size of the screen you have practically no edges anymore (and no off screen), so you cannot use framing in a creative way. You basically just point the camera at the action and that's it.

[jan von krogh]

Yes, but Red will be out of range price wise for most people who are in the Mini DV world. The Canon XL1 is still the best value for the money for most of these folks.

there are tons of HDV, DVCAM, DVCPRO25/50, DVCPRO HD, P2, XDCAM, XDCAM HD etc camcorders etc in that marketspace. If you want to compare a canon model (i don´t know these little cameras so good), it would rather be the XL H1, which is ~10.000 iirc.

I understand that the 17.5K price tag is for the camera body only?

add drives / flashscards ~2000

add import/ vat

so it should be ~20.000-22.000 for minimalist shooting setup.

PL mount lenses will add a hefty price tag to that. The Red 18-85mm zoom is listed on their site for $9, 500.00!! The Red 300mm is listed for $4995.00.

indeed, extremly low prices. but i will take a long time, certainly ~1 year until you get the red zoom. however, glass rental will be good business in 2007 suppose.

 

A new SD Canon XL1 is selling on ebay now for $1795.00. People used to getting a complete ready to shoot camera for $1795.00 are going to choke hard on the near $30, 000.00 it will cost them for a Red package. I think there will be few takers for Red in the pro-sumer market.

yes, all people and companies i know personally who ordered red are 35/16/1080p houses/individuals.

however, the younger HDV/DVcamprowhatever crowd is quite present in the internet.

 

People who do budgets for universities, colleges, and corporate video departments, will balk at the Red price tag.

i don´t think so. allianz germany (insurance) went HDCAM SR, daimler chrysler mostly HD and the like tend to produce their images/corp 35 or HD. And the digital advantages are very important to corps who do calculate budgets..

film universities i think will get a certain pressure from their students, but i don´t know a single german university who ordered. OTOH, they are certainly not buying in "ordering" but need to have the final product approved.

 

As has already been stated on this board, many of the people who have plunked down the deposits will not be able to come up with the rest of the money. Then there will be a bunch of Red cameras on ebay when many of the first wave of users find they can not generate the work to keep the camera.

hmmm. uncertain here. the 1000 bucks are a refundable deposit. i guess red will want full payment before they deliver or will refund instead, because i think they won´t have a hard time to find other buyers -at once- if they manage to produce the camera.

The fact that Red is coming out with a 18-85mm ZOOM is very telling. How often are zooms used in feature films and higher end TV shows these days?

all the time since decades. it always completly depends on the visual style.

 

90% of the work is done with primes, and we change lenses based on the needs of each shot.

i don´t know who "we" is, i don´t know where your 90% is coming from, but i can guarantee you that genres from fantasy, sci-fi, horror, forms like doc or mtvstlye etc. would be pretty boring if they would be 90% fixed.

 

So it seems that while on the Red website they call it "Digital Cinema", this whole system has not been very well thought out for people that shoot for the "cinema" i.e. feature films.

i disagree, i and most customers herehave exactly the opposite opinion. it solves many typical issues & problems we have with our cinemacams, be it arri or sony in a clever way, which i described a little bit in detail in an earlier post.

 

End rant....let the bashing begin, this time I have the gate secured and the hot oil ready :D

i am afraid nobody will come knocking on your door, as production reality is changing rather outside of everyones castle. also, i usually don´t greet visitors with hot oil, but then, everyone has his style.

 

PS: "Hot Oil" as in a seige defence.

i think today optical&heat guided weapons against bunkers use digital cameras image recognition, come at ~mach 4 and are not so easy to stop with a little bit of warm dressing.

 

PSS: I'm still betting that an engineer some place will develop a 35mm, crystal synch, silent, pin registered, film camera with a price tag of under $20K NEW. I'm thinking it may be the alter ego of Jim Janard, a rich guy with a passion for film instead of digital. Once a revolutionary movement can be invented, the sky is the limit.

i am not sure how much aaton will charge for penelope, but there is a basic problem. microelectronics can be produced low-price high end, mechanics its quite a bit harder. you can see that @ red. while competing cameras are *4-*10 more expensive, the competeting lenses only are *2-*5 more expensive.

 

PS: lol, something went really wrong with the quote feature of this post :)

Edited November 2, 2006 by jan von krogh

[Guest]

I'm sorry Jan, but I find it hard to believe that people with serious money (the b-budget that you mention) are seriously talking about switching their productions over to a untried, untested (and unseen) camera system.

 

So far, all anybody has to go on are the published specs, and a few screengrabs, Making production decisions on that basis is foolhardy, and if your clients are that easily swayed by what is still currently vapourware, then they are setting themselves up for a fall.

 

I would hope that you are advising them in the strongest terms to wait until the RED system has proved itself viable before committing a production to it.

 

Yes, and of course that is what it's all about. There is a long way to go before the entire work flow has been established to go from shooting with Red, post, and to 35mm print for theatre projection.

 

Question for the rental companies: What do you plan to charge as a day rate for Red? If a production company has three B-features lined up running 15-20 days each will it not be cheaper for them to just buy a Red? Perhaps not once glass is thrown in, but they could still save on the camera body??????

 

R,

[jan von krogh]

I'm sorry Jan, but I find it hard to believe that people with serious money (the b-budget that you mention) are seriously talking about switching their productions over to a untried, untested (and unseen) camera system.

yes and no. they want ~1 week of testshooting worth to decide if they will be leading of bleeding edge with red. one of the dops has ordered a camera himself and they talked... on the one movie (martial arts action) i can see why they want it (120p), but especially the doc.... i recommended them hdcam for the doc, however.

 

So far, all anybody has to go on are the published specs, and a few screengrabs, Making production decisions on that basis is foolhardy, and if your clients are that easily swayed by what is still currently vapourware, then they are setting themselves up for a fall.

I would hope that you are advising them in the strongest terms to wait until the RED system has proved itself viable before committing a production to it.

yes, i even insisted on the tests - including postworkflow. if youre betting $.$$$.$$$ bad surprises aren´t welcome.

however, i doubt that (shooting is starting may) that we will have the reds ready for rental by then, so i think the problem might be theoretical.

i want to use the 2 REDs in -OUR- productions to learn to understand all details before giving them to rental, however, if they insist i won´t refuse (and certainly having a spare hdcam in reserve)

[Guest]

"i don´t think so. allianz germany (insurance) went HDCAM SR, daimler chrysler mostly HD and the like tend to produce their images/corp 35 or HD. And the digital advantages are very important to corps who do calculate budgets.."

 

Actually I was not thinking of the fortune 500 crowd that have more money to spend than they know what to do with. If some one is in the market for HDSR decks, Red will look like a toy.

 

"The fact that Red is coming out with a 18-85mm ZOOM is very telling. How often are zooms used in feature films and higher end TV shows these days?

 

all the time since decades. it always completly depends on the visual style."

 

What feature films do you watch? "All the time since decades?" Please, the only decade to use the zoom on a regular basis was the 70s.

 

R,

[Max Jacoby]

The fact that Red is coming out with a 18-85mm ZOOM is very telling. How often are zooms used in feature films and higher end TV shows these days?

It depends on the individuals, some people use zooms all the time (like Vilmos Zsigmond) and some hardly ever. But the point is that these shows use zooms that are about a stop faster (T2.2 for the 17-80mm Optimo, T2.3 for the 17.5-75mm Primo) than the Red Zoom (f2.8 which should be about T3) and they also have budgets to light sets to their desired lighting level. Make no mistake, a T3 zoom does not get you very far if you have a night scene and no budget to light it.

[jan von krogh]

my bad, didn't think of the D-20.

 

yeah, i was only referring to the digital cinecams. arri 35 mm is great and you can buy it. D20 still has some issues and they won´t sell it for at least one year - thats what arri told me @ IBC.

[jan von krogh]

Yes, and of course that is what it's all about. There is a long way to go before the entire work flow has been established to go from shooting with Red, post, and to 35mm print for theatre projection.

finally something we can agree on.

 

Question for the rental companies: What do you plan to charge as a day rate for Red? If a production company has three B-features lined up running 15-20 days each will it not be cheaper for them to just buy a Red? Perhaps not once glass is thrown in, but they could still save on the camera body??????

big questionmark.

i suppose

2007 (where demand will exceed available reds HIGHLY for sure) = red will be overpriced.

from there one, the usual party begins,

as always when digital killerproducts (IF red delives as the design specs promise) begin to change an industry, there will be interesting changes in pricestructures.

 

when DV took on beta, NLE on Steenbeck, VFX softwarecompositing on quantel paintbox, video on film in ENG, wordprocessing to typewriter, internet on telex, laserprinter desktoppublishing on classic layout, DAW on mutitrack audio, DTS/DD on mono/stereo cinematic sound, CD/LP, DVD/VHS the list is sooo long. always some grandmasters go belly up and some new kids in town.

 

but the transition will, even if red fullfills more AND delivers ~5000 cameras ~2010, be not overnight, rather slow.

 

however, angenieux optimos zooms, just one example, are complety sold out, minimum one year delivery...

[Stuart Brereton]

It depends on the individuals, some people use zooms all the time (like Vilmos Zsigmond) and some hardly ever. But the point is that these shows use zooms that are about a stop faster (T2.2 for the 17-80mm Optimo, T2.3 for the 17.5-75mm Primo) than the Red Zoom (f2.8 which should be about T3) and they also have budgets to light sets to their desired lighting level. Make no mistake, a T3 zoom does not get you very far if you have a night scene and no budget to light it.

 

 

I have to agree here. Canon manufacture HD lenses with a max aperture of t2.1, Panavision's digi Primos are t1.7. T3 is just not good enough.

[Chris Kenny]

Um no it wasn't. You had a fairly good resposnse to the post you wanted to reply to, not the post i actually made.

 

I'm having trouble finding another way to read "the fact is the average joe will sit happilly infront of HD originated images if the script/ production is good enough. the people who are buying these cameras aren't the future of indy filmmaking, they are people with cash and a lack of ideas."

 

to reiterate, most of the arguments for red- 'regarding revolutions in filmmaking' we've heard before. infact the same people with their handycams were probably talking about how they were going to buy an hvx then are now talking about getting a red (and putting down deposits now).

 

High-quality MiniDV + desktop editing was a revolution, and it lead to quite a lot of creativity. But not much of it ever showed up on the big screen, in part simply because the medium wasn't up to it. That's the revolution people are getting excited about now.

 

most of the arguments on dvxuser are oxymorons- we need 4k to make a decent film, yet lenses etc are not important. It is like they want to have their dogfood and eat it too...

 

I've never actually seen that argument made anywhere before. Some people are trying to find cheap glass for cost reasons, but I don't think many people believe it doesn't matter.

[David Sweetman]

How often are zooms used in feature films and higher end TV shows these days?

I couldn't tell if you had written this, or if you were quoting someone else, and I couldn't find the original post.

 

Anyway, a ton, I've found. Zooms have been used on every higher-end set I've been on. I saw an angenieux Optimo 12-1 and an angenieux 4-1 just last night on one of these big-budget mainstream hollywood pictures.

[Max Jacoby]

I saw an angenieux Optimo 12-1 and an angenieux 4-1 just last night on one of these big-budget mainstream hollywood pictures.

But were that exterior or interior sets? And you say yourself that they are big-budget shows.

 

Most people use zooms outside in daylight, when you have enough of a stop, it just speeds up the whole process. Especially on cranes they are very popular, because you don't want to get slowed down by swapping a lens and rebalancing the crane everytime you need a different focal lenght.

 

But on the dozen or so feature films that I have worked on I can count on the fingers of one hand the times we used a zoom lens inside. The courtyard in 'Girl with a Pearl Earring' was an interior set and we put on the Cooke 18-100mm, and on 'The Merchant of Venice' we used the 12-1 Optimo at times. But both of these films had huge lighting budgets and even there we didn't use these zooms for night scenes.

 

On the other hand your average Red zoom user won't have access to the same amount of light for his sets, because, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, if he had then he most likely would also be able to afford primes as well as a better/faster zoom lens.

[Stuart Brereton]

Most of the HD dramas/features I've worked on have used zooms almost exclusively, but that's missing the point...

 

Regardless of whether you use zooms or primes, what is required are fast lenses, and whereas you can excuse a 300mm lens for being slow, an f2.8 (or t3) zoom is just not fast enough to compete with modern cine lenes.

[Max Jacoby]

Most of the HD dramas/features I've worked on have used zooms almost exclusively, but that's missing the point...

Exactly. Zooms for 2/3" chip cameras are automatically faster, because the sensor size is smaller. It is this property that allows Cooke to offer a conversion of their 18-100mm T3 zoom into a 9.5-53mm T1.6 version for Super 16mm.

[Chris Kenny]

Most of the HD dramas/features I've worked on have used zooms almost exclusively, but that's missing the point...

 

Regardless of whether you use zooms or primes, what is required are fast lenses, and whereas you can excuse a 300mm lens for being slow, an f2.8 (or t3) zoom is just not fast enough to compete with modern cine lenes.

 

Well, given the price, I don't think RED will have much trouble selling them, maybe even to people who aren't RED camera customers. There probably is room in this market for a range of products with different capabilities at different price points, even if currently the market is very skewed toward high-end/high-price for historical reasons.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Chris Kenny

[Guest]

Yes I'm sure zooms are still around...the point I was aiming at was that Red should have come out with a nice four set of primes to go with the camera. If they wanted to target an audience of people who want to make the leap into making indie features with Red. I'm not talking here about the guy who already owns a set of primes, I'm talking about people who will want to adopt Red as their primary means of acquisition for indie feature work. (I was also pointing out that actually seeing a zoom move in modern cinema on screen is quite rare.)

 

As for zooms in features and TV now....how long does the zoom stay on the camera? All day? I could see how you could shoot a show like Baywatch with a zoom on the camera since it's all outdoors, as Max pointed out.

 

Ok maybe more shows use zooms than I thought? I always find that the picture is much sharper with a prime than a zoom, for obvious reasons. Changing lenses doesn't take that long. Same would apply to video, Red should produce a sharper picture with a prime than a zoom.

 

I know you're reading this JJ and the Red team, so make a set of primes :D

 

R,

[Gavin Greenwalt]

On the still photography side I'm still running an old Canon F1B with a bag full of primes. The only time I've ever had a problem was: shooting at a friend's wedding and in Peru on the side of a mountain trying to get a photo of some wildlife. before it went behind a ridge.

 

Shooting dramatic naratives by comparison is a simple task and changing a lens will probably be the fastest task performed that day, especially while waiting on the light.

 

One of the leading reasons I see to use a zoom hasn't been brought up yet. Some of us actually like the look of a zoom during a take.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

In my opinion.. i hope red does in fact raise their prices.. at least high enough so the non believers and skeptics on this site cant afford one once its amazing glory comes to life.. I don't care if it goes up in price.. im on the reservation list. im guaranteed 17,500. and also.. theres gunna be too many cinematographers out there.. i want job security. so please raise the red rates..

[Guest]

In my opinion.. i hope red does in fact raise their prices.. at least high enough so the non believers and skeptics on this site cant afford one once its amazing glory comes to life.. I don't care if it goes up in price.. im on the reservation list. im guaranteed 17,500. and also.. theres gunna be too many cinematographers out there.. i want job security. so please raise the red rates..

 

This is your first post, you're not from DVX are you?

 

Contrary to what JarRED stated here, there is very much an "us vs them" mentality on the DVX site. I should copy a lot of what they say about cinematography.com. But that would be seriously fanning the flames.

 

JarRED also banned another cinematography.com member from DVX for not praising RED to his liking.

 

No one over there is allowed to voice any dissent at all when it comes to RED.

 

R,

[Zakaree Sandberg]

This is your first post, you're not from DVX are you?

 

Contrary to what JarRED stated here, there is very much an "us vs them" mentality on the DVX site. I should copy a lot of what they say about cinematography.com. But that would be seriously fanning the flames.

 

JarRED also banned another cinematography.com member from DVX for not praising RED to his liking.

 

No one over there is allowed to voice any dissent at all when it comes to RED.

 

R,

yah im from dvx.. but so what? im bashing the non believers.. the people who have no faith in JIM and RED. the camera will be the best thing ever. i cant wait. i think its funny when all these people try to claim its not possible because blah blah blah. I dont care if THEY cant make it work.. all that matters is that RED CAN make it work and they will

 

PS. i love modern marvels!

saw ur imdb

[Guest]

yah im from dvx.. but so what? im bashing the non believers.. the people who have no faith in JIM and RED. the camera will be the best thing ever. i cant wait. i think its funny when all these people try to claim its not possible because blah blah blah. I dont care if THEY cant make it work.. all that matters is that RED CAN make it work and they will

 

PS. i love modern marvels!

saw ur imdb

 

Wow, can I pick em' or what? Glad I did not falsely accuse you of being from DVX then.

 

Ok well I know where you're coming from, no further response from me needed.

 

Can't say what my other forum brothers will do though :D

 

R,

[Phil Rhodes]

Two point seven inches.

 

That is the distance from the "I" key to the shift key on my keyboard.

 

Two point seven, two point eight inches.

 

Amazing.

[Jonathan Benny]

yah im from dvx.. but so what? im bashing the non believers.. the people who have no faith in JIM and RED.

 

This is all getting very, very worrisome.

 

AJB

[Guest]

I read this on the Red forum at DVX and almost fell out of my chair:

 

"I wish RED would release a high quality, low price, very wide angle prime. Seems like there is a good demand for it."

 

What? A complainer a whiner a doubter? He's going to be on the DVX banned list very soon.

 

R,

[Chris Kenny]

Is it remotely possible we could avoid having this thread degenerate into another forum war? Discussing some of the issues on which different demographics don't see eye-to-eye with respect to RED and the future of cinematography is reasonable, but sniping at posters on other forums, making vague generalizations about diverse groups of users, etc. is really rather boring and unproductive.