Entertainment Post in Burbank

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Quite a lot of formats support timecode embedding. Anything DV has it by default, either AVI or Quicktime, and there are as many ways of doing it in MXF as there are types of MXF files - which is a lot, and that's the problem. Really it's just a lack of standardisation that's forced the DPX issue. It would be entirely feasible for the industry to have standardised on something else if it wasn't habituated to Cineon.

 

Phil

[Thomas Worth]

Quite a lot of formats support timecode embedding. Anything DV has it by default, either AVI or Quicktime

The problem is, unless I can generate my own DV file with timecode I specify, this doesn't do me any good. Plus, all my software would have to be able to read the timecode from the file, which, to my knowledge, none of it can.

 

Assuming I have my full resolution DPX sequence, how would I get my FCP editor an offline version to edit and then turn in for the purposes of conforming the online version? Michael, you mention ditching the idea of wrapped file formats, but does that mean the entire process - from offline to online - must be done with frame sequences? I just don't see how I'm going to be able to reference the uncompressed footage without the timecode being embedded in the DV file and the NLE being able to read it and use it to generate the EDL.

 

So am I to assume that the ONLY WAY to make the online / offline process work (with DV as the offline) is by capturing tapes, and having the NLE read the timecode during capture?

 

If the answer to the above question is "yes," then you realize what that means, right? It means that any camera manufacturer that offers a camera that records to anything other than a tape will limit the camera to formats that can be "onlined" in their original form. This means bitrates will purposely be low simply because the average person (lacking a RAID) will not be able to work with the footage on a cheap system. And since there's apparently, as of November 28, 2006, no solution for FCP editors to the online / offline problem with pure data formats, this further insures that the quality of pure data formats for the little guy will be intentionally limited in view of the lack of hardware support (8 drive RAID) by the average person's NLE.

 

This is really frustrating.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> The problem is, unless I can generate my own DV file with timecode I specify, this doesn't do me any

> good.

 

Ah but it might. If you can get your DV dubs made with correct timecode, then many NLEs won't touch the timecode in the DV headers unless you ask them to. Premiere certainly doesn't - hook up a DSR-45 to the PC's firewire port, play back some video that was captured with timecode, and there it is. So, captured DV often does include timecode, but I'm not sure that there are (and equally unsure if there aren't) tools to write timecode into DV as a file-based operation.

 

> Assuming I have my full resolution DPX sequence, how would I get my FCP editor an offline version to edit

> and then turn in for the purposes of conforming the online version?

 

Several ways.

 

If you're cutting in Premiere, get something like AVIsynth to render them down to an AVI then you put the first frame timecode into the filename and use Canopus DV file conveter like this:

 

dvfc -addtc -inplace -filename 0123456.avi

 

If you don't want to do that, you can make the DV proxies and just manually punch in the first-frame timecode in the NLE, based on your knowledge of which DPX was used to create the first frame of that particular file.

 

Or you use a Clipster and a lot of other very clever and monstrously expensive hardware.

 

> does that mean the entire process - from offline to online - must be done with frame sequences?

 

...so no, because of what I mentioned above. While it might be hard to get timecode into a DV-AVI, consider how hard it is to get timecode into a DPX sequence.

 

The biggest problem is how to conform the DPX once you're done, although of course cuts-only conforming could almost be done with a shell script/WSH/batch file/whatever.

 

Phil

[Michael Most]

The problem is, unless I can generate my own DV file with timecode I specify, this doesn't do me any good.

 

That's remarkably easy to do. Make the DV file using whatever approach you want. Open it in Final Cut (which I assume you have, because you've already referred to it). Select the file in the Browser. Go to "Modify/Timecode" and create/initialize a time code track using whatever time code you want, based on either the first frame or the frame you're currently parked on. It's automatically and instantly saved as part of the Quicktime file.

 

Assuming I have my full resolution DPX sequence, how would I get my FCP editor an offline version to edit and then turn in for the purposes of conforming the online version?

 

There's one way that's pretty simple. Go to www.gluetools.com. This tool will allow you to load a DPX sequence into Final Cut as if it's a QT movie (applies a log/lin conversion LUT if you need it as well). You can then export to whatever file format you want. It also reads embedded time code in DPX sources and stamps the QT file with the first frame time code. Simple and useful.

 

So am I to assume that the ONLY WAY to make the online / offline process work (with DV as the offline) is by capturing tapes, and having the NLE read the timecode during capture?

 

I never said that. I said that's the common way of doing it today. If you use the devices I referred to during the transfer (Clipster, Pronto, Drastic Quickclip) you're recording directly to a DPX sequence, one per edit. You then copy those files to whatever you're using as backup. The reason DPX files are so popular for this is because they're codec agnostic, file system agnostic, operating system agnostic, and have embedded metadata. Any wrapped file is not going to have all of those qualities, at least not in the foreseeable future. Not to mention that during a conforming stage, you need a hell of a lot less material put back on line than you do if you use wrapped files.

 

It means that any camera manufacturer that offers a camera that records to anything other than a tape will limit the camera to formats that can be "onlined" in their original form. This means bitrates will purposely be low simply because the average person (lacking a RAID) will not be able to work with the footage on a cheap system.

 

Ahh, but here's the thing. In all likelihood, at least 50-75% of the people clamoring for this stuff have little to no idea what they're getting into, little to no idea how to handle it, and no inclination (or funds) to let professionals do their job, helping to develop sensible workflows and handle the back end of post production. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Not everything is "free." Everyone seems to be talking about things like 4K, but very, very few people here and elsewhere seem to have a clue as to what that actually entails. They all seem to think they can do things in real time on their MacBooks at any resolution and any frame rate - oh, and color correction as well. Until reality sets in, making any long term pronouncements about any of this is a bit premature.

[Thomas Worth]

This is great info, guys! Thanks a lot. I am going to play around with all this stuff and see what I can come up with!

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

4K is the best part of three quarters of a gigabyte a second; I also don't think there's any practical need for it if we can maintain 2K acquisition to 2K projection without involving any scaling.

 

I don't think there's any doubt that this stuff can, theoretically, be done on the desktop with a bit of ingenuity, though.

 

Phil

[Thomas Worth]

If you're cutting in Premiere, get something like AVIsynth to render them down to an AVI then you put the first frame timecode into the filename and use Canopus DV file conveter

Phil, I did some research and the software you're referring to is actually FireStore DV File Converter, and is by Focus Enhancements, not Canopus. I downloaded a PDF of the documentation and there is indeed a command line version of the software. The option "-addtc" is, according to the documentation, to "Add Premiere Timecode to AVI File." Does this mean, however, that this timecode will only be read by Premiere? Have you tested this?

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Oh yeah. Oops. My bad. Canopus have a similar product, or may have had a similar product, or may have sold it to Focus or something.

 

> Does this mean, however, that this timecode will only be read by Premiere?

 

Depends if FCP has raced to support this kind of timecode. I'd tend to doubt it, so very possibly yes.

 

> Have you tested this?

 

Once, ages ago. It appeared to work in Premiere.

 

Phil

[Robert Houllahan]

As someone who offers direct to drive service here is my take on it.

 

Direct to G5 with a Aja or Decklink card has the obvious limitations of no timecode it's just raw video. This seems to work well for people who want high quality but do not need to do any kind of match back to tape or film and want to just edit online with better than D-Beta for virtually no cost, and that is what we are talking about.

 

Furthermore:

 

 

A direct to disk recording will capture whatever quality the telecine suite is producing so if you hook a 444 Decklink HD card up to a Millenium or Spirit you will get what that machine puts out, if you hook it up to a 80's era Digi3 rank you will get that endearing 80's look ;-) Machine maintenence is most important.!!

 

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the DPS reality-velocity hardware here these machines can take 422 deck control and timecode input (like from a keylink) I am looking to get one right now do use as a DDR in our telecine 1 in addition to the G5. DPS(now Leitch) makes a HD version with 1080i/p and 720p 4:2:2 capability.

 

Phhil wrote:

 

4K is the best part of three quarters of a gigabyte a second; I also don't think there's any practical need for it if we can maintain 2K acquisition to 2K projection without involving any scaling.

 

Oversampling, when you stuff a higher quality format down into a lower quality format it looks better! a 35mm contact print will look better than a 2K DI because it's a 4K+ being "downconverted" to 2K (or so) I think in a short time all hollywood features will be at least scanned at 4k even if they are for projection on a D-Cine projector for the oversampling

 

-Rob-

[Michael Most]

Direct to G5 with a Aja or Decklink card has the obvious limitations of no timecode it's just raw video. This seems to work well for people who want high quality but do not need to do any kind of match back to tape or film and want to just edit online with better than D-Beta for virtually no cost, and that is what we are talking about.

 

There are ways around that. It is also useful to have some kind of backup, whether the client requests it or not.

 

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the DPS reality-velocity hardware here these machines can take 422 deck control and timecode input (like from a keylink) I am looking to get one right now do use as a DDR in our telecine 1 in addition to the G5. DPS(now Leitch) makes a HD version with 1080i/p and 720p 4:2:2 capability.

 

The biggest problem with PC based devices is that they are not Macintoshes, and therefore do not support Mac-only codecs, such as DVCProHD and DVCPro50. In the world of do-it-yourselfers, the primary tool of choice seems to be Final Cut - a Mac only product. The most requested direct to disk transfer request we get these days is DVCProHD Quicktime files - a Mac only codec. Personally, I wish someone would do a Drastic/DVS/DPS/RaveHD type product on a Mac. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Alessandro Machi]

Another kona card option.

 

Digital VHS comes with three quality settings.

 

the lowest setting I think is similar to dv, the middle setting is significantly better, than there is an HD setting.

 

The digital vhs decks cost under 500 bucks.

 

Laydown the transfer signal to digital VHS in either the standard middle quality setting or the HD setting, then output via the component setting into the kona card and onto final cut pro.

 

Wouldnt that be a high quality low deck cost option?

[Robert Houllahan]

There are ways around that. It is also useful to have some kind of backup, whether the client requests it or not.

 

I agree, we usually keep the files on our array and wait and see when we send a external disk out, certainly not ideal but it works. I had one educational customer go all disk this year in DV50 for FCP it has been working out well for them but the rigors of time sensitivity and robustness for the pro market do not strictly apply.

 

The biggest problem with PC based devices is that they are not Macintoshes, and therefore do not support Mac-only codecs, such as DVCProHD and DVCPro50. In the world of do-it-yourselfers, the primary tool of choice seems to be Final Cut - a Mac only product. The most requested direct to disk transfer request we get these days is DVCProHD Quicktime files - a Mac only codec. Personally, I wish someone would do a Drastic/DVS/DPS/RaveHD type product on a Mac. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

 

Sure Mac attack FCP is king of this area and it is too bad that AJA or Blackmagic do not make a nice 422 serial control and a setup to receive timecode and deck control, maybe they will. I mentioned DPS because I have had some experience with the SD product and it is a nice DDR which acts reliably as a deck with all of the deck I/O you would expect. I have not seen the HD version but the website says it supports 720P but of course how it does that may not be in the flavor that people want it in or would need to be rendered into that format.

 

-Rob-

[Matt Irwin]

I stopped by Entertainment Post today and talked with Glenn. Really nice people over there.

They recently added an HDCAM-SR recorder and have a Lustre suite for $250/hr.

I asked about direct-to-HDD telecine, and he said they'll have it working in a few weeks.

[Alessandro Machi]

Digital Content Producer has an interesting article on the AJA Kona 3 capture card.

 

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/cameras/...ltiply_options/

 

 

It's well worth the read and might help one not drown in the "HD format contortion revolution".

 

I just hope that Kodak and Fuji stay around making film for quite a while, in my opinion the HD industry is so out of control and proving to be two parts pioneer and one part menace.

 

 

"Panasonic's AG-HVX200 for example, records digital audio and video in 81 different frame rates and resolutions, and that's in a camera without support (at the moment) for 50i/50p recording." (quoted from the article).

 

If I was producing Hd content, I would demand that the DP pick a frame rate or two, prove they are compatible, and then dump all the other menu options that relate to frame rates. If I'm wrong please tell me why.