RED production schedule

[Stephen Williams]

Hi All,

 

To get this thread back on topic I have a quote from J.J.

 

"I expect that we will have a full report of our situation on or about June 15th."

 

Stephen

[Werner Klipsch]

Hi All,

 

"I expect that we will have a full report of our situation on or about June 15th."

 

Stephen

And my suspicions are I expect I know what will be in it. It seems we are doomed to be forever on the event horizon of the black hole that would be called of Digital Cinematography, trapped like an insect in amber for ever. An interesting curio, but no Jurassic Park saurian will ever be engineered from its blood!:lol:

 

(Because my friends, that is also quite impossible, as the bugs insides bacteria would have eaten the saurian's DNA long ago, although it makes a good story line).

 

And you closed off the other discussion before I could reply to Jannnard that I do not and have not ever shot and probably will not ever shoot any film! I just know what TV cameras can do and what they can't can't do! And have been can't-doing for some decades!

 

But Jannard is free to prove me wrong :rolleyes:

[Brian Drysdale]

I believe this "event horizon" is due to problems with a couple of the production circuit boards and a couple of suppliers. These sound pretty standard reasons for delays when attempting to get kit into production.

[Werner Klipsch]

I believe this "event horizon" is due to problems with a couple of the production circuit boards and a couple of suppliers. These sound pretty standard reasons for delays when attempting to get kit into production.

 

Sorry, Nerd humor, ding ding! :lol: An event horizon is a special region supposed to surround a star that has collapsed to make a black hole. Any thing crossing the event horizon appears to a far-distant onlooker as frozen in time. You need to watch more Sci Fi.

 

There are very many HD cinematography projects that seem stuck on the event horizon. What I mean is, you go back two years or more or so on forums like this one, and you will be reading pretty much the same "it's all about to happen" stuff. They are forever farting around, with cheap TV commercials and public service spots and movies I have never heard of since or before, but nothing that really says "I am prepared to put my ass on the chopping board with this camera, with my 100 megabuck production".

 

Anyway, quoting Jannard, I'd put some serious cash on things being more than just "problems with a couple of the production circuit boards and a couple of suppliers."

 

Jannard:

"We have encountered a ton of detail issues. Throw in some supplier difficulties and here we are... delayed. I really didn't think it would happen, but it has."

 

But still, we only have to wait a few weeks to find out. But notice, he does not say every thing will be fixed then, just that he will be telling us how things will be going.

[Brian Drysdale]

As they say, the devil is in the detail, and prototypes are different to production models. There are plenty of examples in the hi tech world where new products have been delayed. The surprise is Jim Jannard claiming not to be expecting these problems.

 

RED may be sorting out problems, but they currently don't seem to be frozen in time. I suspect there willl be a series of upgrades in the coming months as they receive feedback from the early production cameras.

[Mitch Gross]

Sorry, Nerd humor, ding ding! :lol: An event horizon is a special region supposed to surround a star that has collapsed to make a black hole. Any thing crossing the event horizon appears to a far-distant onlooker as frozen in time. You need to watch more Sci Fi.

 

Actually, while event horizon is most commonly used in reference to the effect you describe surrounding a black hole, it is a general term relating to time shifting. We use Event Horizon in describing the functions of the Phantom HD high speed camera system, where time can appear to almost stand still!

[Robert Hughes]

The big problem with the RED phenomenon is not the mfg production delay but the firestorm of hype the inventors created around their vaporware product, causing massive distraction for potential buyers who would have otherwise moved along with their upgrade plans.

 

Back in the 60's, IBM was selling their 360 mainframe series amidst competition from other companies selling similar, "plug compatible" hardware. IBM's genius was in creating a range of machines, all capable of running the same software, but with different thruput. But their marketing department got a little too smart - they would wait until their competitors released this year's model, then immediately make product announcements for IBM's machines still on the drawing board. They ensnared the market base with promises of better performance, but in some cases IBM was marketing machines that would never it to production. Control Data cried fowl and successfully sued IBM for $500,000,000 . Sometimes vaporware doesn't pay.

Edited May 25, 2007 by Robert Hughes

[Jim Jannard]

The big problem with the RED phenomenon is not the mfg production delay but the firestorm of hype the inventors created around their vaporware product, causing massive distraction for potential buyers who would have otherwise moved along with their upgrade plans.

 

So Robert... what do you make of Sony's recent announcement of a 4K camera, with a two year development plan? That seems a bit disruptive to their 2/3" customers considering buying an F23. How many other camera manufacturers "hype" their future cameras that won't be released for a year (or more)? I think you are confusing "hype" from "announcement". Either we all are hyping or we all are announcing. And I prefer to think that we are causing a massive change to the industry as opposed to a massive distraction. I think your "vaporware" terminology needs a definition. Do you believe that we will not put this product on the market? Or that we are just speaking of it before its release?

 

Jim

Edited May 25, 2007 by Jim Jannard

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't think it is accurate at this point to call a camera that is shipping to customers in a month or so, "vaporware". It is not uncommon for new technology to be a little late compared to the originally announced shipping date.

 

It's also strange that some of the people who said that the RED camera would be difficult to develop in only one year (including myself) are now making a big deal about the delay in release. Even if it comes out three months late, it's still practically a year ahead of a typical turnaround schedule for a new camera design. So I don't even see this as a "delay" -- I see it more as reality catching up when trying to do something so advanced and get it right. But it's definitely way beyond anything like vaporware -- they didn't show up at NAB 2007 with a wooden body painted black like some manufacturers do.

 

Now I do think some people who planned their lives, or their feature shoots, around a camera being shipped exactly on the day originally announced were somewhat naive or inexperienced, or just plain overly optimistic. I certainly don't plan an upcoming shoot around new product release dates.

[Jim Jannard]

I don't think it is accurate at this point to call a camera that is shipping to customers in a month or so, "vaporware". It is not uncommon for new technology to be a little late compared to the originally announced shipping date.

 

It's also strange that some of the people who said that the RED camera would be difficult to develop in only one year (including myself) are now making a big deal about the delay in release. Even if it comes out three months late, it's still practically a year ahead of a typical turnaround schedule for a new camera design. So I don't even see this as a "delay" -- I see it more as reality catching up when trying to do something so advanced and get it right. But it's definitely way beyond anything like vaporware -- they didn't show up at NAB 2007 with a wooden body painted black like some manufacturers do.

 

Now I do think some people who planned their lives, or their feature shoots, around a camera being shipped exactly on the day originally announced were somewhat naive or inexperienced, or just plain overly optimistic. I certainly don't plan an upcoming shoot around new product release dates.

 

I was very happy to see David at NAB and glad he had time to watch "Crossing the Line". I also agree that it is not prudent to plan a project around a schedule that has always had the tagline "things can change at any time... count on it". We have been very careful NOT to lock anything down. We have always given specs "that can change, and probably will" and an "estimated" schedule. This is our 1st camera and we did/still do have a lot to learn. For example, the cage/rail system has changed TWICE since NAB (for the better).

 

We appreciate everyone's patience. This is not an easy trick.

 

Jim

[Mitch Gross]

I personally am stunned that RED has moved so quickly, and Jim has my hat cake to prove it. "Vaporware" is more what could be said about the camera at NAB 2006 -- but this year it was there and working. Quite well, I might add.

 

The first camera is impressive. The 100th camera is the next hard step.

[Alexander Joyce]

The big problem with the RED phenomenon is not the mfg production delay but the firestorm of hype the inventors created around their vaporware product, causing massive distraction for potential buyers who would have otherwise moved along with their upgrade plans.

 

The camera will arrive when it does. If anyone were silly enough to bet their money on the fact that a newly developed camera would ship exactly on time then I'm sorry to say that those people were quite dumb. One thing is to create a few units, another to create thousands.

 

I think the hype has been a strong combination of inventors who felt very strongly about the project they were working on and a crowd of very zealous dv people who suddenly felt the gates to Hollywood had been broken down. A 20 grand or so camera that is said to have surpassed 35mm acquisition is sure to whip up excitement.

It will surely be a very nice addition to the wide range of tools availible to us whenever it arrives, but until then just use whatever is already availible to you. If it was good enough 6 months ago it's still good enough today. Luckily we're not moving that fast yet.

[Carl Brighton]

So Robert... what do you make of Sony's recent announcement of a 4K camera, with a two year development plan? That seems a bit disruptive to their 2/3" customers considering buying an F23. How many other camera manufacturers "hype" their future cameras that won't be released for a year (or more)? I think you are confusing "hype" from "announcement". Either we all are hyping or we all are announcing. And I prefer to think that we are causing a massive change to the industry as opposed to a massive distraction. I think your "vaporware" terminology needs a definition. Do you believe that we will not put this product on the market? Or that we are just speaking of it before its release?

 

Jim

 

You were promoting a camera system that is heavily dependent on the REDCODE software you were writing for it, which was and probably still is, under development. To me that comes under the definition of "vaporware".

 

Also, remember that Sony are first and foremost an electronics company, with enormous technical resources at their disposal. They have a long and enviable track record in producing high-quality video cameras, in all price ranges, so people tend to treat their projections as credible. As far as I know, apart from a few Oakley sunglasses with built-in MP3 players, your track record in producing electronic equipment is zero.

 

However, there is no question that you have caused a major disturbance in the boardrooms of Sony and elsewhere. In my opinion, the current RED design and concept is where digital (or just plain "electronic") cinematography needed to be about 20 years ago, when the concept was first introduced (and over-hyped to ludicrous levels)!

 

We finally now have a product that REALLY IS "comparable to 35mm film". It doesn't go all the way to film quality, but, it has the potential to pay for its shortcomings wth serious savings in equipment and operating costs.

 

The main reason for the lack of interest in digital cinematography up until now has been the "beer on a champagne budget" aspect of it: you were expected to pay premium prices for a substandard result.

 

I tend to liken this to the attempt to introduce HDTV broadcasting some years back. Despite all the Hype, it's only been in the last 12 months or so that you have been able to buy true HDTV sets at anything like a reasonable price.

 

Once a reasonable HDTV user base becomes established, the market for quality HD source material is going to skyrocket, and that's where I see the RED's real potential, although of course you may not see it that way.

 

Remember Kodak sold an awful lot of 35mm movie film to TV production companies, when there was nothing but NTSC and PAL! Most movie film was not (and is not) used for shooting movies...

[Jim Jannard]

You were promoting a camera system that is heavily dependent on the REDCODE software you were writing for it, which was and probably still is, under development. To me that comes under the definition of "vaporware".

 

Carl... REDCODE is done and patents filed. "Crossing the Line" was shot with REDCODE. We may continue to tweak it as time goes along, but it is ready to go. Does that still fall under your definition of "vaporware"?

 

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

In my opinion, the current RED design and concept is where digital (or just plain "electronic") cinematography needed to be about 20 years ago, when the concept was first introduced (and over-hyped to ludicrous levels)!

Anyone remember this?

 

 

This standard-definition, tube camera, the Ikegami EC35 [1983], was one of the industry's first "electronic cinematography" cameras.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Ralph Oshiro

[Carl Brighton]

Carl... REDCODE is done and patents filed. "Crossing the Line" was shot with REDCODE. We may continue to tweak it as time goes along, but it is ready to go. Does that still fall under your definition of "vaporware"?

 

Jim

 

No, I said:

You were promoting a camera system that is heavily dependent on the REDCODE software you were writing for it, which was and probably still is, under development. To me that comes under the definition of "vaporware".

 

We were talking about the time before you had really demonstrated anything other then red fabric and renderings, but you were making the RED sound like a done deal.

 

The thing is, the Mysterium sensor is theoretically only capable of producing full-color at about 2K resolution, at least from its "Raw" output. If you've developed some new breakthrough algorithm that makes it look like 4K well that's fine, more power to you. But if you were really saying: "once we've developed this algorithm we'll be able to do that", well then that's the classic definition of vaporware.

 

The problem most of the skeptics had was that the only realistic way you could know whether REDCODE worked or not, was to apply it to the output of a Bayer-masked camera, try it in some real-world situations, and see what happened.

 

A question that has never been satisfactorily answered is, if your RED sensors weren't ready, why couldn't you have applied REDCODE to the output of some other Bayer-masked camera? In theory, REDCODE should be able to convert the output of my CMOS Sony Handycam to full-spec 1920 x 1080 HDTV. Why couldn't you just say "Look: Before REDCODE; After REDCODE, whaddya think of that?"

 

You'd make far more money licensing REDCODE to other camera manufacturers than you would selling the cameras outright. Bill Gates knows a thing or two about that :lol:

 

By the way, when you say "the patents filed", does that mean "granted" or "applied for". You know once you are granted a patent, people will be able to look up the details and find out how it works, which is why a lot of stuff never gets patented.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Carl Brighton

[Carl Brighton]

Anyone remember this?

 

 

This standard-definition, tube camera, the Ikegami EC35 [1983], was one of the industry's first "electronic cinematography" cameras.

Is that the one that Panavision developed? I remember seeing an ad in an old American Cinematographer for something like that.

 

The only thing it had going for it was that you were supposed to be able to use standard cine lenses, but from what I've been told by ex-PV people, the quality was laughable.

[Carl Brighton]

It's also strange that some of the people who said that the RED camera would be difficult to develop in only one year (including myself) are now making a big deal about the delay in release. Even if it comes out three months late, it's still practically a year ahead of a typical turnaround schedule for a new camera design. So I don't even see this as a "delay" -- I see it more as reality catching up when trying to do something so advanced and get it right. But it's definitely way beyond anything like vaporware -- they didn't show up at NAB 2007 with a wooden body painted black like some manufacturers do.

 

Well no, most reservation holders aren't going to be too affected by the delay anyway, because they had no firm delivery date, and they wouldn't have been expecting delivery until late this year at the earliest.

 

I think the biggest concern is that no production REDs have been delivered as yet. Once they reach the point where they've shipped the first say 50 or so and there has been no resultant barrage of customer complaints on these forums, well then everybody will probably settle down, secure in the knowledge that RED will be filling their order as soon as humanly possible.

 

Of course this is the point where people are going to have to start thinking about where they're going to get the other $16,500

 

I must say, offering a no-questions-asked 120% refund on your deposit is a somewhat radical business practice!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Is that the one that Panavision developed? I remember seeing an ad in an old American Cinematographer for something like that.

No, the EC-35 was the Ikegami product. You're probably referring to the Panavision "Panacam" which was co-developed with the now defunct video equipment manufacturer, "CEI." And yeah, it was a pretty crappy camera.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Ralph Oshiro

[Carl Brighton]

No, the EC-35 was the Ikegami product. You're probably referring to the Panavision "Panacam" which was co-developed with the now defunct video equipment manufacturer, "CEI." And yeah, it was a pretty crappy camera.

Ah yes, it was CEI.

 

They're still in business, by the way, but only making video taps

 

I used to have one of their early B&W video tap cameras that someone gave me. It had this huge connection cable and a 19" rack mount control unit that was crammed with electronics. I have never seen anything so-over designed in my life.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi All,

 

I think the time has come to close this 25 page thread. I will possibly reopen it when more information is released by Red.

 

Stephen