Ektachrome 64T, a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde type of Film Stock.

[Alessandro Machi]

I just viewed an Ektachrome 64T super-8 film transfer that was done at Film and Video Transfers in Northridge California. I did not shoot the footage so my observations are simply based on what I saw laid down onto DVD. Film and Video Transfers offers both rank cintel transfers and film chain transfers as well (in all film formats). The transfer that I viewed was a super-8 film chain transfer and was very good. But what surprised me the most was how literally one shot would look as good or better than really good kodachrome, but then the very next shot at the same location looked grainy.

 

I just wanted to share a couple of observations for those of you that want to avoid excessive grain when shooting Ektachrome 64T. 64T grain levels looked almost imperceptable on some shots that had no flat "wall" in the background. To reduce the grainy look, it appears that avoiding shots where the background is all of a similar distance to the camera may help. There also appears to be a relationship between grain levels and how much blue is in the shot, if the blue has gradiations in it or not, the contrast range of the shot, and if the shot is overexposed or underexposed, but I haven't had a chance to study those aspects in detail.

 

Any other observations by others shooting Super-8 Ektachrome 64T are welcomed.

[David Mullen ASC]

I just wanted to share a couple of observations for those of you that want to avoid excessive grain when shooting Ektachrome 64T. 64T grain levels looked almost imperceptable on some shots that had no flat "wall" in the background. To reduce the grainy look, it appears that avoiding shots where the background is all of a similar distance to the camera may help.

 

That's true of any grainy stock. Grain is most visible in flat areas of midtone.

[Terry Mester]

You really need to judge a Film Stock by viewing it via Projection. Every Video conversion will degrade the image quality -- especially Blue and Green Light. This is simply because Digital CCD Pixels Sensors are 'linear', 'square' and 'one size fits all'. Blue Light is the smallest, and will be distorted more than Green which will be distorted more than Red. If they were using a Filter for outdoors, then this decreases the amount of Light exposing the Film which thus increases graininess. A flat "wall" can only reflect a fixed amount of Light, and this will increase graininess. If they were using the "Zoom", then this automatically diminishes the amount of Light exposing the Film -- increasing Graininess. Regarding E64T specifically -- which is only intended for Tungsten Lighting, I do know that Professional Photographers don't care much for it. They are really angry with Kodak for taking away K25.

[Alessandro Machi]

 

 

If you recall, I noted that some of the Ektachrome 64T actually looked as good as the best looking Kodachrome, the Ektachrome 64T wasn't just a one way road to grainville. The filter won't necessarily mean that less light gets to the film because one is supposed to compensate by opening up the iris 2/3's of an f-stop.

[John Hyde]

Since Ektachrome 64T leans in the direction of Mr. Hyde most of the time, why not simply shoot a better stock such as Velvia or 100D Ektachrome to begin with? Seems like the other stocks would make life easier.

[Matthew Buick]

Since Ektachrome 64T leans in the direction of Mr. Hyde most of the time.

 

That Mr. Hyde wouldn't be you by chance, would it? :lol:

[Terry Mester]

That Mr. Hyde wouldn't be you by chance, would it? :lol:

Thank you Matthew. You regularly give me good laughs!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Alessandro Machi]

Since Ektachrome 64T leans in the direction of Mr. Hyde most of the time, why not simply shoot a better stock such as Velvia or 100D Ektachrome to begin with? Seems like the other stocks would make life easier.

 

Sure, that is one solution. But isn't it cool to learn Ektachrome's true identity depending on the lighting and framing situation at hand?

[John Hyde]

That Mr. Hyde wouldn't be you by chance, would it? :lol:

 

 

So... you put my last name, "Hyde", together with "Mr." to make "Mr. Hyde"... just like the movie character... right? INCREDIBLE! Never heard that one before. <_<

 

Does anybody know where I can find Steve Hyde? I wanna beat Matthew to the punch with that crazy funny joke! ;)

Edited March 31, 2007 by John Hyde

[Anthony Schilling]

64T is strongest in bright sun. tight grain, sharp with excellent colors. But with 100D and Velvia out there now, I stick to using 64T for farting around stuff.

[Matthew Buick]

Thank you Matthew. You regularly give me good laughs!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Why, thank you. :)

 

So... you put my last name, "Hyde", together with "Mr." to make "Mr. Hyde"... just like the movie character... right? INCREDIBLE! Never heard that one before. <_<

 

Does anybody know where I can find Steve Hyde? I wanna beat Matthew to the punch with that crazy funny joke! ;)

 

Tis bad form to steal another man's joke. :ph34r:

[Timothy Gassen]

Since this is such a low-speed reversal stock, for best grain reproduction does anyone suggest I shoot this in daylight without a filter, metered at 64 ASA, and color-correct in telecine?

 

I've been told to avoid dark blue skies, since if exaggerates grain. Is that true, also?

 

Thanks for any comments -- I haven't shot reversal Super-8 in a loooong time...

 

Timothy Gassen

[Gerard Furber]

I think the look of 64T depends on the processing. Andec's processing was recently reformulated with advice from Kodak, and more recently my efforts have been much less blue with the built in 85 filter and finer grain. I now actually like it.

[Terry Mester]

Since this is such a low-speed reversal stock, for best grain reproduction does anyone suggest I shoot this in daylight without a filter, metered at 64 ASA, and color-correct in telecine?

Since this is a Reversal "Positive" Film, you cannot undertake the same type of colour correction as with a Negative. Paying a Lab to do colour correction, even with a Negative, will cost $$$, and so it's better to use the correct Aperture / Exposure during filming. If you do use a Filter outside, you must treat 64T as 40 ASA. You would have to test a Cartridge out to see how it looks outdoors without a Filter. You generally would experience a problem of excess "blue" (requiring a Filter) outside when it is overcast and damp. The excess moisture (the O in H2O) in the air will absorb Red and Green Light thus increasing Blue. However, I personally have never used a Filter outside with Kodachrome 40A. Now, E64T is not K40A. Professional Photographers would definitely recommend Fuji's Velvia (50D) over Ektachrome 64T. You can order Velvia Carts through Spectra Film & Video.

[Alessandro Machi]

Ultimately, Ektachrome 64 and Velvia look more different than they do similar, so I wouldn't say that one stock should be used exclusively over the other. I think Ektachrome does reproduce very accurate colors.

 

I don't understand your statement that you shot Kodachrome 40 with no filter. Are you refering to still film that is daylight balanced, because the Kodachrome for Super-8 was indoors balanced and most definitely required the 85 filter.

[Terry Mester]

I don't understand your statement that you shot Kodachrome 40 with no filter. Are you refering to still film that is daylight balanced, because the Kodachrome for Super-8 was indoors balanced and most definitely required the 85 filter.

I'm talking about S8 K40. (The photographic film was 25 and 64.) My internal Camera Filter is scratched, and so I can't use it. I haven't experienced a problem with blue tinge outside. I initially used about 20 seconds of Film to gradually screw out the Filter to see the difference with and without the Filter. I found the colour outdoors with K40 to be perfectly acceptable. The Auto Aperture on the Camera was undoubtedly designed for Kodachrome.

[Alessandro Machi]

I'm talking about S8 K40. (The photographic film was 25 and 64.) My internal Camera Filter is scratched, and so I can't use it. I haven't experienced a problem with blue tinge outside. I initially used about 20 seconds of Film to gradually screw out the Filter to see the difference with and without the Filter. I found the colour outdoors with K40 to be perfectly acceptable. The Auto Aperture on the Camera was undoubtedly designed for Kodachrome.

 

I don't mean to be mean but could you be somewhat color blind?

[Anthony Schilling]

Tonight I had a chance to set up the old screen and projector, and watch some reels. I have 3 cans of spliced film that consist of my favorite shots and experimantal cuts on reversal stocks. 400ft Kodachrome, 200ft of Velvia/100D, 200ft of 64T. It was instantly apparent how much better the 64T looks to me than K40... so crisp, colorful and vibrant. As to where K40 just looked washed out and bland in comparison. I used my "Radiant" 3' screen and projected from about 15ft, sat about that far away. With that setup, grain wasn't even an issue and the 64T looked amazing. The 100D and Velvia stuff looked even better. I think the whole E6 switch has been highly under rated so far, we have 3 color reversal stocks available now... all of which are a step up from the tired look of K40.

[Alessandro Machi]

It's probably not accurate to lump 40 years of Kodachrome into one category. I've seen kodachrome from the late 60's that looked amazing, and I have footage from the early 90's that would probably surpass Velvia, but that was then and this is now, and what remains of Kodachrome is really not as stable as what came before.

[Terry Mester]

It was instantly apparent how much better the 64T looks to me than K40... so crisp, colorful and vibrant. As to where K40 just looked washed out and bland in comparison. I used my "Radiant" 3' screen and projected from about 15ft, sat about that far away. With that setup, grain wasn't even an issue and the 64T looked amazing. The 100D and Velvia stuff looked even better. I think the whole E6 switch has been highly under rated so far, we have 3 color reversal stocks available now... all of which are a step up from the tired look of K40.

Hi Anthony, could you provide a few more details.

How would you rate K40A and E64T indoors vs. outdoors? I assume that you used the internal Camera Filter for outdoors. With the Filter used outdoors, K40 could get under-exposed. If you didn't place the Filter out for indoor filming, then you definitely will not get good results, and you cannot blame Kodachrome for consequences of using a Filter indoors.

Did you use the 'Auto Aperture' on the Camera, or did you manually set the Aperture? Kodachrome has very sharp dyes, and therefore the Camera Aperture / Exposure needs to be very accurate.

Were you shooting 18 f/s or 24 f/s? Kodachrome 40 is really intended only for 18 f/s, and you will not get best results with 24 f/s. K40 will be under-exposed at 24 f/s. Since E64T is a faster film, it will work better with 24 f/s. For its part, Velvia is highly praised by professional photographers -- especially nature photographers. You labelled Velvia as 100D. Did you intend 50D?

[Anthony Schilling]

It's probably not accurate to lump 40 years of Kodachrome into one category

That's just it, How long has the K40 emulsion been going since it's been last upgraded? If I'm correct, super 8 K40 has been around since 1974, and hasn't changed.

 

Hi Anthony, could you provide a few more details

I'm an avid shooter of the S8, and have a few shoe boxes stuffed with 50ft reels of K40. I've seen K40 look as amazing as it can, I'd like to think. But it's just that the newer E6 stocks have more dynamic range than K40... even more so with the negatives. I don't think it's that K40 has gone sour, as much as it appears souring with all the amazing new choices in S8 over the past 2-3 years.

You labelled Velvia as 100D. Did you intend 50D?

I meant Ekta 100D and Velvia 50D. They have a very similar look, and are both utterly amazing on projection. Getting to shoot 100D and Velvia in S8 is probably the best thing about 64T... based on the switch to widely available E6 super 8 processing.

[Alessandro Machi]

Change in regards to kodachrome can occur in many ways.

 

First there was kodachrome 25, then there was kodachrome 40, then there were the labs that actually processed kodachrome. The most sophisticated kodachrome processor allegedly was operating in Hollywood California, and in the early 90's it apparently was mothballed. So as you go decade by decade, major changes did occur to Kodachrome, usually each change was not for the better, but actually for the worse.

[Terry Mester]

That's just it, How long has the K40 emulsion been going since it's been last upgraded? If I'm correct, super 8 K40 has been around since 1974, and hasn't changed.

I'm an avid shooter of the S8, and have a few shoe boxes stuffed with 50ft reels of K40. I've seen K40 look as amazing as it can, I'd like to think. But it's just that the newer E6 stocks have more dynamic range than K40... even more so with the negatives. I don't think it's that K40 has gone sour, as much as it appears souring with all the amazing new choices in S8 over the past 2-3 years.

Yes, Negative Film will provide more accurate colour than Positive Reversal Film because the Negative is masked to correct for unwanted absorptions of Green & Blue Light by the Cyan and Magenta Dyes. Since Kodachrome is much more complicated to develop than other films, it's possible that you may not have always received top quality developing. However, the S8 Kodachrome 40 emulsion (which probably goes back to 1965) did not need to be updated. The Kodachrome developing process has been simplified over the years. Modern ESTAR Base is better than Acetate, but this doesn't affect the colour. It's too bad that you never had the opportunity to use K25 Daylight Film. I have an old K25 D8 Film from 1959, and its fantastic colour quality has endured. You didn't mention if you always used the Camera's Daylight Filter with your K40. Alessandro is completely appalled that I didn't use this Filter with my K40, but the fact is that the Filter (which he will not acknowledge is pink :blink: ) undermines the colour quality of the Film.

You said you have shoe boxes full of K40. Do you keep these boxes in the dark, frozen, and sealed in air-tight plastic bags? Long-term exposure to light will fade the Dyes, and warmer temperatures above 70 degrees undermine Dye stability.

[Anthony Schilling]

Terry, Yes I used the 85 filter with all my K40 daylight shooting. And I don't doubt that K40 may have looked better when K14 processing was more prominant... but the fact is that the newer E6 films are giving a whole lot more that what we were getting from K40. In comparison, the E6 films have richer blacks, cleaner whites, more intense and accurate colors... especially in the yellows and greens. There is also less contrast, and a lot more visable detail within a frame. K40's performance appears flatter. The only thing K40 has over 64T is finer grain, but not the case against Velvia 50D or Ekta 100D. I'm not a hater of K40, just think that E6 and color neg really launch the format forward in leaps and bounds.

 

I do have one more roll of Kodachrome 40 in DS8 exp 2/2008. And a few more rolls of Ekta 100D in DS8. I have yet to shoot K40 in DS8. But my Scoopic has very accurate exposure, and will use an exrenal 85 filter... the 100D will go through the same camera. This will give me a true direct comparison of how they compare. I will post the results within the next few months.

[Terry Mester]

I do have one more roll of Kodachrome 40 in DS8 exp 2/2008. And a few more rolls of Ekta 100D in DS8. I have yet to shoot K40 in DS8. But my Scoopic has very accurate exposure, and will use an exrenal 85 filter... the 100D will go through the same camera. This will give me a true direct comparison of how they compare. I will post the results within the next few months.

Anthony, for this last reel of K40, don't use a Filter. A Filter will increase graininess. If you want to be able to accurately compare Grain and Colour between K40, E100 and V50, then you either have to use a Filter for all three or for none of them. If you try K40 without a Filter, I think you'll be more impressed with it.