Film Festival Realities

[Guest dpforum1968]

Hello All,

 

My partner and I have been entering our latest production into film festivals around the USA and Canada, it is a short film shot on 35mm film with very high production values.

 

All we have received from all the film fests we've entered is a ding to our bank accounts and lot's of "sorry we can't program your film into the festival" letters.

 

Surprised, we decided to attend one of these festivals that had rejected our film and we where SHOCKED by what we saw. First of all they should have called it a Crap Fest, not a Film Fest! One incredibly bad DV short film after another after another! We wanted to be killed, or at least have our eyes put out.

 

The lowest blow was this absolute piece of, you know what, that apparently screened at Sundance last year!! It was worse than the worst high school projects I've seen. And I'm being serious here. If that's what Sundance accepts, then Sundance is a joke.

 

I'm curious to know if any one else out here has experienced the same thing? High quality product gets rejected by the festivals, while they accept the worst made junk on the earth.

 

Perhaps our slick action thriller short is a turn off to the many "artie fartie" types that program these festivals?

 

I honestly think that if we turned a DV camera onto a guy talking about his sexuality for two hours we'd be accliamed as the greatest film makers in the world by the festival organizers.

 

I can handle being beat out by better made films, that's fair. But it really blows when garbage work gets seen, and quality product does not.

 

Am I alone in this?

 

Thanks

DC

[DavidSloan]

Do you have a link to your project so that we can see your "high quality product?"

 

As much as I LOVE cinematography, and set design, and all the high production value that money can buy, I don't think that's what make a good picture. Ultimately good direction, characters, acting, story, and mood are still the things that pull the audience in; not the amazing placement of the kicker light. All you need to do is watch a Cassavetes film, esp. A Woman Under The Influence, and you'll be reminded of what a master director can achieve even with no production value, what so ever.

 

The films that have really exploded on the festival circuit have been films like Clerks, PI, Slacker, etc...these films are not notable for their high production value, they are just really enjoyable films to watch. Maybe you're right, though. I think festival people are looking for something more unique, singular, esoteric, artistically inclined...I'm not sure a slick action thriller fits in with that.

 

Have you shown your film to people, who aren't your friends, who can give you honest criticism? What has been the reception thus far?

[Bill Totolo]

How have you been submitting your material? Did you have it on DVD with professional cover art in a jewel case and a nice bio on the filmmakers accompanied by photos? The more professional you look the better your chances.

 

I've been attending festivals lately. I've probably watched a few dozen shorts in the last month or so. I have two films doing the circuit and I have been very humbled by what I've seen. I really am impressed.

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

I've had many short films in hundreds of festivals around the world, including Sundance 3 times.

Here's what I can say: they don't care how slick it looks or how high the production value is. They are generally looking for something unique, usually quirky, less than 15 minutes, and a good story. Anyone can throw alot of money at a short to make it look 'professional,' but if it's not interesting or poor in other aspects, it's not going to be attractive to festivals. They would rather have a 3 minute short shot in b&w Pixelvision with family for actors and a great story than a 20 minute short in 35mm which looks like a scene from a Michael Bay movie.

 

I'm not trying to put your film down, I'm just saying you have to know your audience...know who you are selling too...the festivals. It's a good lesson for future feature filmmaking as well because you'll need to know who your market is in order to sell it. My second time at Sundance my director and I were talking to the head programmer for the festival who had mentioned that he wished new filmmakers spent as much time developing a story as they put into making it look good. It's not about showing off how much money you can spend how much stuff you can get for free. Story, story, and story. (His words)

 

Lastly, I'm sure your film is good. Don't get discouraged because you didn't get into the festivals you'd hoped. If it is good, stay behind it and know you will have no problem getting the recognition you deserve for it.

 

By the way, and I'm not positive about this as I've never been the one to stick a copy in the mail, btu festivals could care less about packaging and presentation. I've seen VHS copies with hand written white labels on them get accepted (personal experience) to Sundance. I recently read that Napolean Dynamite was sent in a regular USPS envelope.

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

Probably just a crap film festival, they probably choose a certain amount of films randomly.

 

But yeh, you do get a lot of crap anyway. I went to one not that long ago, just looking at them; you?re just dying to have your own work shown. And see how they all compare.

[Sam Wells]

I was asked to speak at an event orgainized by a local festival, it was tips for entering festivals etc; they wanted me to say a few words because I've had work in some good ones.

 

I beagan by saying "What do the Berlin, Rotterdam, Locarno and New York Film Festivals have in common ? Well, they've all rejected my work, as has Sundance which has both accepted AND rejected my work"

 

BTW, I did the 'politics' for Berlin Rotterdam and Sundance & didn't get in yet got in Sundance previously, & Telluride Montreal etc with blind submissions so...

 

 

-Sam

[Guest dpforum1968]

Thanks for all the feedback and info.

 

To address a few of the points raised here.

 

Yes, we do send it out on DVD with a professional looking box and art on the DVD.

 

As for story, the horrible films I'm refering to at the festival I went to had terrible story lines, if there even was one, and the shooting, editing, acting, lighting, all sub standard.

 

But I guess I should not be surprised by the film festivals, especially when one considers the truck loads of crap programming the big four networks put on the air every year.

 

I suppose that's why TV ratings and film viewership have been in decline for some time now, eventually audiences just say "enough" and go play golf instead.

 

DC

[David Mullen ASC]

Festivals are just like any other market -- you have to cater to what they want to show. A slick mainstream comedy short may get into the Aspen Comedy Festival but not be what Sundance considers their type of film, which for want of a better term IS on the artsy side. It sounds like you made an action film, which not many festivals see as the type of genre they want to show.

 

Length is also a BIG factor - a ten minute film has to be twice as good as a five minute film because every ten-minute short will occupy the screening time of two five-minute shorts. If your short is thirty minutes or longer, it gets near impossible for any festival to justify booking it.

 

Anyway, I worked on the feature-length version of "D.E.B.S.", which was a short lesbian comedy action film (really fun and mainstream except for the lesbian angle) and both the short and then the feature played at Sundance.

 

I also shot a short film about two aged lesbians stranded in a pick-up truck in the desert called "Stuck" which played at Sundance. It was shot in 35mm Panavision anamorphic. "D.E.B.S." was shot in 24P HD. Both had high production values, so it's not like Sundance is rejecting films for looking too slick. But the subject matter has to be "indie" enough (i.e. non-studio) for them.

[Guest dpforum1968]

Well David I think you said the magic word when it comes to Sundance, "lesbian."

 

That certainly confirms EVERY THING I've heard about their programming choices.

 

As for length, our piece is 10 minutes.

 

DC

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

Well David I think you said the magic word when it comes to Sundance, "lesbian."

 

That certainly confirms EVERY THING I've heard about their programming choices.

 

As for length, our piece is 10 minutes.

 

DC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Personally, I believe the film festival thing has run its course. There were rumblings that the Sundance winner this year was pre-ordained, so the festival could get back some indie cred. I don't know if that's true, but where there's smoke, there's fire.

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, if you accusing a film festival of not being mainstream and commercial enough in their choices, you are sort of missing the point of film festivals in general and Sundance in particular.

 

Anyway, "Garden State" was at Sundance this year and it has no lesbians in it....

 

Film festivals by their nature are designed to represent the tastes of the programmers, who are chosen for having a certain selectivity and bias. They aren't like studio chiefs trying to find material with wide appeal that can make the most amount of money at the box office. There is no intent for a festival to be "fair" in their selections, nor are they rewarding effort. They are picking things that they personally like and feel fits into the themes of the festival. Of course, there are also politics involved which account for a certain percentage of the programming, although short films, having so little commercial value, tend not to have that sort of pressure attached to them because the stakes are not as high as features.

 

I had four features I shot get into Sundance, although none in dramatic competition. "Twin Falls Idaho", a dramatic film about conjoined twins, "Northfork", a surreal work of Americana, "A Foreign Affair", a comedy about two brothers who travel to Russia looking for a bride, and "D.E.B.S." a comedy lesbian action film. So only one of the four had lesbians in them, but they all had something unusual about the subject matter or execution.

 

I've shot plenty of movies that also failed to get into Sundance as well. After all, there aren't THAT many slots at Sundance. You have to give up the notion that you "deserve" to get into a film festival any more than you "deserve" to win an Oscar -- there are too many random factors that are out of your control to get too worked up about it.

 

Anyway, if Sundance got more mainstream, there would be just as many angry responses as if it went more esoteric.

[Guest dpforum1968]

Well I have not got my official rejection from Sundance, yet. I assume it's coming in December. But who knows they may surprise me, and I'll end up eating my words.

 

Any way I can't complain too much about competitions etc I have a pretty huge stack of awards on the mantle already. So getting rejected by a few leftist arty farty film fest programmers isn't that big of a deal in the long run.

 

What would be ideal is if some one buys out a theatre in Park City Utah for the duration of Sundance and then simply sells the screening spots to the highest bidders. After all if you just spent 10 million on a feature why let some snot nose programmer at Sundance keep your film from screening? If you had to spend $20,000.00 for a spot to get a screening it would be worth it. Then also sell a block of time to short film makers as well.

 

I can just see the steam rising off the heads of the Sundance folks as films they rejected get seen by audiences attending Sundance any way. And then...horror...SOLD!

 

I predict that as always the free market will rule supreme, and if there's enough demand for people to get their films screened no matter what, then it will happen. A competing festival to Sundance will come along and start to draw off dollars and audiences away from Sundance. People will look for ways around the Sundance programmers and they'll find it.

 

DC

[Carlos M. Icaza]

DC,

 

Do you have a website with a trailer of your movie we can look at ?

 

C.-

[DavidSloan]

DC...just so we can get an idea, can you list some films, or directors, that you like?

[Guest dpforum1968]

I don't have a trailer for the film on-line at present. That is some thing I should work on.

 

As for directors/films I like, I think any thing with Pauly Shore in it is brilliant! "Encino Man", was a work of pure genius! Also, the Police Academy movies, oh those where so good.

 

Ok, just kidding, for real here are some of the great films of all time. In my expert opinion:

 

1) Citizen Kane

2) The Black Stallion

3) Apocolypse Now

4) The Sixth Sense

5) Jaws

6) Original 1977 Star Wars

7) Farewell To Lenin

8) Raiders Of The Lost Ark

9) The Sound Of Music

10) Zulu Dawn

 

Ok well looking over that list I guess none of those movies would be typical festival fare. Probably none of them would have screened at Sundance.

 

DC

[Josh Hill]

Apocalypse Now won the Palme D'or at Cannes, so I think that makes it more than festival fair, heh.

 

I think you're looking at your whole project from too subjective of a point of view. You are obviously biased, and you are basing all of your opinions based on a limited number of festivals.

 

And perhaps you're not picking your festivals wisely. If you've made an action film, you need to look at festivals that have that as their priority.

 

You've also been very ambiguous about your film. You've given us no running time, no plot line, no trailers, no clips to make a judgement on. You're just telling us its great. Maybe it is, maybe it is. But maybe its too long for the shorts catagory and too short for the features. You've not actually told us what festivals you've submitted to (other than Sundance). You attended "one of the festivals," but didn't tell us specifically which one.

 

You're being too critical of movies because they are shot on DV. Its true, in this day and age no one really cares if your movie is shot on 35mm if it isn't interesting (and it may very well be disinteresting to anyone but yourself). And if its not interesting, if its shot on DV I think it probably has a better chance of being accepted than bad movies shot on 35.

 

And maybe your film is really the one that is crap. Who knows? I know a lot of people who think their movies deserve better than they have gotten, and on the reverse side I know people who have made very good movies that are just now getting recognition (Eddie Presley just came out on DVD and I think its probably one of the quintessential indie films of the early nineties). Ask yourself what is original about your movie? What is new or interesting? Is it cliche? Try to look at your film objectively. Stop pointing fingers and criticizing so harshly because festival fair doesn't meet your specific tastes.

 

These things are usually selected by committee. They vote on what they like, what they don't like, what is marketable, what is not. There are a lot of politics, and it is rarely one man deciding what gets selected and what doesn't.

 

And learn to take rejection gracefully. Its nothing personal against you. There are any number of reasons why you were rejected, including getting your submission in too late (even if it were in by the deadline, they may have already screened and selected movies prior to yours getting there).

 

Personally, it seems like you're trying to stir up a controversy than being honest about your own work. You give so few specifics about what you have done (other than 35mm, short action film), what festivals you have sent your work to (there is this one, anonymous festival that you saw movies at, all of which were horrible compared to yours), any information about your work (pictures, trailers, plot, ANYTHING), and you are overly critical of selection at festivals (the lesbian comment, for instance).

 

If you really do have something that is good, and you want honest feedback, maybe you should ask if you can send it to some people on the board. If they're anything like me, I know they will critique your film honestly and objectively.

 

What you should learn about this is to look at your work with a certain objectivity. Nothing is perfect, including your and your movie. Or mine. Or anyone elses. There are always things you could have done better or done differently, things that you will look back on and say: "eh."

 

::shrugs::

 

But before any of us can really side with you on this, I think we'd have to see your work.

[Stephen Press]

In 2000 I made a no budget ?Mocumentry? about a bunch of losers trying to make a movie called ?Laird of The Ringer.? It was 12 min long, behind the scenes and a few industry in jokes aside it cleaned up at most of the festivals in New Zealand and got a massive amount of publicity. So full of confidence I sent it off to festivals around the world? not one wanted it. After an endless amount of rejections and spending more in postage than I did in actually making the short I gave up. Still working on lots of other projects but I must admit it soured me for film fests. I must dig it out and put it on the net.

You can see a rough preview of the last low budget feature I was DOP on at http://www.event16.org/

[Josh Bass]

WARNING: Possible stupid question alert!

 

Is there any other venue besides festivals for shorts? I have no plans to do a feature any time soon (or far). Not say I wouldn't like to, but I have no wish to direct other people's scripts, and I certainly don't have a story, right now, that's worth at least 90 minutes of screen time. So I make shorts, or try to. If one becomes soured towards the festival circuit, what is one to do with one's shorts?

 

I've sent my stuff off to several festivals, so I'll put in my two cents. The first movie I did was a 5 minute claymation movie, universally loved by everyone who's seen it, for the most part. Sent it off to the Houston international Film Festival. BAM! rejected. Sent it to several other places. BAM! Rejected some more. Quite discouraged, be I. Months later, I get a call from Spike and Mike, who are apparently THE animation festival to get into. Guess what? I beat out 100 other entries and my movie got on a travelling festival that went to several major cities across the US this year, and was shown in regular theaters (I think they even transferred it to film; I feel quite special). So f$%$%$ you, Houston International Film Festival. Also won a few other awards.

 

Now, one of the festivals I got into, that I attended, made some poor choices. First, they delayed the screening process by about half an hour to give an lifetime achievement award to Barry Corbin (I think that's his name. . .played an ex-astronaut on Northern Exposure), and then proceeded to show, as the first film of the screening (there was only one screening room, not like a festival where you buy tickets to each individual movie), an hour and half long piece of mindnumbing crap that drove half the audience out, and THEN followed it with all the much shorter pieces. Stupid, stupid move.

 

What am I saying here? I don't know. Yes, a lot of weird crap tends to get into festivals, and also, I think anyone and his cousin can have a festival, and they do. I also don't think that highly of the people who program/run these things, due to the experience at the above mentioned festival. This is a pretty well-known one here in Texas, I think, so I would expect smarter choices.

 

Don't get hung up on format though; that makes you sound arrogant. Ditto production values. . .I think unless they really suck (unintelligible sound, video too dark or shaky), Joe Blow is happy if he's entertained, regardless of how good it looks. So you could be right, you could be wrong, and I have no idea why I typed any of this.

 

Just had a few ideas.

 

Next time you send off, investigate the festival a little. Call 'em and see if they welcome your genre of movie.

 

Also, what about www.triggerstreet.com? You could send in the first ten minutes of your film (I think they have to be under ten minutes). The site'll take ANYTHING, and show it, meaning that if you submit it, it goes up for screening. It's not a contest where only some stuff gets shown. Everything gets shown. Have I said the same thing enough times yet? You are then judged by complete strangers who have nothing to gain by blowing smoke up your ass.

[Sam Wells]

These things are usually selected by committee. They vote on what they like, what they don't like, what is marketable, what is not. There are a lot of politics, and it is rarely one man deciding what gets selected and what doesn't. d have to see your work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Sam Wells]

Sorry I can't get the quote window to work properly since the software was changed for this forum.

 

I was backquoting: "these things are usually selected by committee. They vote on what they like, what they don't like, what is marketable, what is not. There are a lot of politics, and it is rarely one man deciding what gets selected and what doesn't. d have to see your work."

 

My own experience has been, the fewer men or women selecting, the better. I think my own work is more likely to appeal to a single person that believes in it than to a committee.

 

Having been on the other side of the fence a couple of times for a couple festivals, I can confirm that the fewer people involved in selection the better, you can advocate for the work you want shown.

 

-Sam

[Guest dpforum1968]

Ok first, to Josh Hill, I have said in my postings on this chain that the film is 10 minutes. Perhaps you missed that? No sweat. :-)

 

The reason I have not mentioned which festivals I have sent it to and given me the thumbs down is because I don't want to run them down by name that's all.

 

If I had the film on-line I would send you the link, I don't have that much web space available to hold a 10 minute short film.

 

When I say, "shot on 35mm with high production values" I don't mean to run down DV films per se. What I am saying, and I know a lot of you won't agree, is that shooting 35mm is more expensive and difficult than DV. I think festivals should recognize this. Like I said, I know many of you will disagree with me here.

 

It looks like a few people on this chain agree with me at least a little, and one guy seems to agree with me a lot. So I'm not the only one who feels this way about the film fests. The guy from New Zealand seems to agree with me almost 100%. Kia Ora to you mate! (I used to live in NZ).

 

Now for some thing completely different, as they say on Monty Python, I have just been informed by a mid size fest in a major US city that my film will be programmed. The lady that sent the e-mail said she'll make it official on the site next week. Here's the bizarre thing, it's the last festival I thought would take out film. So I'm starting to eat some of my words already, right?

 

When it's official I will post that link, I can't name the fest until then of course.

 

Also, the film will be in a festival here in Canada on October 14th, I have just found out. And...screened at another in Toronto. No, not the Toronto International, I'm not implying that.

 

Well, that gets us three fests just like that. I guess persistance and lot's of FedEx fees and entry fees pays off as well.

 

Of course I'm not entirely happy yet. Now I want some of the "big" festivals, and a three feature deal out of it :-)

 

Ok here's my next question....has any one out here actually advanced their career as a result of their film being seen in one or multiple festivals? ie Did some studio big shot happen to see your film at a festival, and that opened a door to greater things?

 

Has this scenario ever actually happened in real life to any one here?

 

Thanks

DC

[Dan Salzmann]

Sour grapes have no useful purpose.

Affirming that the film did not get selected because it was not lesbian oriented is just rubbish.

It is important to remember that anyone can start a film festival (you included!).

This can mean anything from the local pub that wants to attract new people, an "art-house" cinema, museum, university, private individual, etc.

There are thousands out there and you have to be just as if not more selective than they are.

One persons garbage is another persons gold.

Someone who is a Francis Bacon fanatic mght not find Monet too interesting.

There are flms that are all technique and no substance, all substance with poor technique and the relatively rare ones that are a balance of both. IMHO, no one cares or should care that 35mm is "more difficult" than miniDV. How many times have you had to sit through long guitar solos that were very difficult to play but were not only boring as hell but added nothing to the song.

Just keep growng as a person and film maker.

All we can do is the best we can with what we have.

[Guest dpforum1968]

Sorry to Dan Salzmann, but if you read the other postings you will see that other people have had similar experiences with film fests.

 

In other news I just finished some computer generated imagery work on the film that made the star character a lesbian. Hey if you can't beat em', join em' :-)

 

DC

[Mister X]

"Salon Des Refusés" is a film festival that has a fairly interesting method of selecting its films. The main requirement for an entry is a rejection letter from the Toronto International Film Festival. A lottery determines which rejected films get chosen. And, if the lottery doesn't work out for you, this year, there was the "Rejection Projections Movie Festival," which accepted what didn't make into the "Salon." The latter festivals may not attract the huge publicity garnered by the TIFF, but it's getting harder to be totally rejected in Toronto.

 

"Beautiful losers get second chance."

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

Josh Hill has some good points.

 

All of the shorts I've had in festivals have been in 35 and yet I do agree that no one cares. Sure they might say it looks better and commend you for raising the money and shooting it in 35, but the DV film with the better story is going to win or get accepted. Period. If you do get in though, 35mm will put you closer to winning a Cinematography award.

 

To Josh Bass:

There are other outlets for shorts. The web is one, cable is another. In 2000, 'In God We Trust,' a short film I shot, made headlines for being the first short film sold at Sundance for the most amount of money. It was sold to AtomFilms who then, I believe, liscensed it to HBO. It has been airing on HBO and Cinemax for years and was even shown as in-flight entertainment on Virgin Airlines for a while. While this was a rare case, it shows that there is a market for anything of any length provided it's good. If people like your work, they will find a market for it.

 

And I'll say it again: they'll be more impressed if you put the hard work into making a good story as opposed to a slick looking film. If the story is great AND it looks good, you're set to win many awards.

 

All that being said, there are always exceptions. Congrats on getting into some festivals. Perhaps you can at least post some still frames for all of us to see. That shouldn't take up too much web space.