Sodium Vapor look with tungsten sources

[stephen lamb]

I've got an INT. night scene coming up, and I'll be using tungsten sources to light with. I'd like to have a streelamp effect coming through the window. Do any of you have suggestions from your experiences on good gel(s) to use to get the color? I'll be shooting HD set with a Tungsten white balance. I did a search through the forums for this topic, but didn't have any luck. Also, along the same lines, anyone have any good films with a similar effect in any scene? Thanks,

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

Chrome Orange #179, have a look see :)

 

Here's Adam Frisch's use of it:

 

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...l=chrome+orange

Edited October 18, 2007 by Jonathan Bowerbank

[Michael Nash]

I did a search through the forums for this topic, but didn't have any luck.

 

I'm surprised, since we've discussed it many times. Glad to see you tried though ;)

 

My favorite recipe on tungsten: double Bastard Amber and 1/4 CTO (2 layers Lee 162 Bastard Amber, 1 layer 1/4 CTO). Blends very well with the real thing.

 

Most movies I've seen tend to either get the color too saturated or too yellow to appear natural looking (IMO). Sodium is a finicky thing to replicate, since it has an odd spectrum and reproduces differently on different imagers (film/video). Spend some time observing the real thing, then do some tests with your camera system to see what looks A: natural; and B: right for your production.

[stephen lamb]

Thanks for the link (great picture reference) and the gel ideas. Much appreciated! I'll try to post stills once we shoot it. (early Nov)

[David Mullen ASC]

Sodium vapor renders differently on most video cameras compared to film emulsion -- the sodium streetlamps here in Los Angeles have a pinkish-orange look on HD versus the yellow-orange look on film.

[Michael Nash]

There's an article about how Darius Khondji did it for The Interpreter here. In this case they chose a yellow-green look for sodium, which isn't exactly realistic but gave a certain "feel."

[John Sprung]

Perhaps a radical idea -- use a real sodium light source outside. The spectral spikes of sodium, like the mercury spikes we're all familiar with from flourescents, aren't anything like what you can make by hanging gels on tungsten. You might test real sodium, but the look may be too radically monochromatic. The go-to guy for real sodium and mercury lights is Ricc Bieber. Have a look at the "Park Special" car dealership fixture:

 

http://www.bieberlighting.com/

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[timHealy]

I was just involved with a lighting test that Fred Murphy was doing and personally I thought Lee's Super White Flame Green provided a really decent sodium vapor look. It use to be used for white flame carbon arc correction.

 

Best

 

Tim

[Michael Nash]

I was just involved with a lighting test that Fred Murphy was doing and personally I thought Lee's Super White Flame Green provided a really decent sodium vapor look. It use to be used for white flame carbon arc correction.

 

That would be Lee 232 "Super White Flame," no "green." ;) That's still too yellow in my opinion, and doesn't have that pinkish-magenta spike that streetlights usually do. But of course how you want it to look for your film is up to you.

 

One thing I like about combining gels is that you can swap out one layer for another color to subtly shift the look if you want. For example with double Bastard Amber and 1/4 CTO you can go 1/2 CTO and one layer Bastard Amber for a warmer look that's better on skin tones but still blends well with practical sodium lights.

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

There's an article about how Darius Khondji did it for The Interpreter here.

 

I'm sure we all would love to be at that level someday, where if the daylight's fading, we can just break out a string of Dino's and keep shooting!

[Walter Graff]

And if you really want a look try what I did last year, I went to the Home Depot and bought a $30 Sodium Vapor light and used it to act as a sodium vapor light. Nothing like the real thing.

[stephen lamb]

Walter,

 

Do you remember what kind of stop you were getting with your Home Depot Sodium Vapor, and how you were using it? I like the idea of doing the real thing, and am definetly going to look into it. I was not aware they came in smaller units, I always assumed they were only for streetlamps and the such. Thanks,

 

Steve

[Walter Graff]

Walter,

 

Do you remember what kind of stop you were getting with your Home Depot Sodium Vapor, and how you were using it? I like the idea of doing the real thing, and am definetly going to look into it. I was not aware they came in smaller units, I always assumed they were only for streetlamps and the such. Thanks,

 

Steve

 

It was a many a project back so don't remember the particulars other than it made a really perfect light for our needs which was a bedroom window at night where we wanted a 'box' of light on a bed where a kid spent a lot of time. My rigging guys played with it and had to move it pretty far away to get a reasonable stop. It was a very efficient lamp. But outside of the real thing, nothing looks like it and this had that organic, almost annoying quality that these lights do. That is not bad, it's what we wanted. And it destroys face tones just as it should. Gelled lights don't do that. Rather they look more theatrical. I suggest a stop down at a local home depot. Make sure its one of the larger stores at the 100k sq ft stores and smaller do not carry everything. They have a wall of fixtures that you can try and see the quality of. Ours was a backyard hand on the garage type and was circular and had a serrated plastic ring that diffused the light. It physically looked a bit like a street light. And when you are done you can hang it on your garage and use it for real. One of my guys did that after we were done.

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

Walter, did you have to run the line through a ballast to strike the lamp? If so, do you recall what was used?

[Walter Graff]

Walter, did you have to run the line through a ballast to strike the lamp? If so, do you recall what was used?

 

It's a self contained unit just like a street lamp. No cable to a ballast. The Home Depot sells a variety of models. You have to go to your local store to see which ones they have. Different regions of Depots sell different manufactures. Ther are low pressure and high pressure fixtures. One gives a yellow glow and the other a more yellow/pink glow.

[David Mullen ASC]

It's a self contained unit just like a street lamp. No cable to a ballast. The Home Depot sells a variety of models.

 

Here's a 50-watt one for $35:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores...tegoryID=501161

 

I had the art department buy a small mercury-vapor one for "The Sophomore" that we dressed into three night exterior scenes. You can see one here:

 

[stephen lamb]

Thanks for all the extra info. David, thanks for the picture reference, very helpful.

[timHealy]

That would be Lee 232 "Super White Flame," no "green."

 

Your right about the number 232 Michael, but incorrect about the name. It is clearly labeled "Super White Flame Green" on the roll and Lee's website does in fact say 232. I was surprised with the color as I only used arcs a few times in my career and have never used this type of correction.

 

Check yourself

 

http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/product...C46DD3C34A72DA/

 

The swatch color on my computer screen doesn't seem to be exactly the same as what I rememebr from using it last week.

 

Best

 

Tim

Edited October 20, 2007 by timHealy

[Walter Graff]

Your right about the number 232 Michael, but incorrect about the name. It is clearly labeled "Super White Flame Green" on the roll and Lee's website does in fact say 232. I was surprised with the color as I only used arcs a few times in my career and have never used this type of correction.

 

Check yourself

 

http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/product...C46DD3C34A72DA/

 

The swatch color on my computer screen doesn't seem to be exactly the same as what I rememebr from using it last week.

 

Best

 

Tim

 

 

Actually you are not correct if I'm reading what you wrote correctly. 213 is "white flame green" which corrects arcs by removing UV and 232 is "Super White Flame" which makes arcs 3200k.

[Michael Nash]

Your right about the number 232 Michael, but incorrect about the name. It is clearly labeled "Super White Flame Green" on the roll and Lee's website does in fact say 232...

 

Check yourself

 

<a href="http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/product...C46DD3C34A72DA/" target="_blank">http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/product...C46DD3C34A72DA/</a>

 

I was just going off my (multiple) Lee swatchbooks that call it "Super White Flame." I can't account for the name disparity. I'm quite familiar with 213 "WFG" and of course it's something very different.

 

The Lee website swatch matches my swatchbook pretty well, at least on my screen. I'm sure it takes on different nuances on film, though.

[timHealy]

Actually you are not correct if I'm reading what you wrote correctly. 213 is "white flame green" which corrects arcs by removing UV and 232 is "Super White Flame" which makes arcs 3200k.

 

What do I have to do to get you guys to belive that 232 is called "Super White Flame Green"? Take a picture? Well here you go.

[Michael Nash]

Hey, I said I couldn't account for the name disparity! Clearly the product has been released under more than one name...

 

[Walter Graff]

Looks like they changed the names since I been using it. My swatchbook in my hands now says 232 super white flame. But I see Lee now calls it super... 'green'. Same thing in the M2 series they just added the word green. You need a Y1 like a Lee 212 along with it for it to work properly getting to 3200 wiht a white arc although it alone on a HMi will give you an amber conversion. I personally don't use arcs much anymore, so haven't kept up on name changes.

[John Sprung]

The go-to guy for real sodium and mercury lights is Ricc Bieber.

I learned over the weekend that Ricc is going in for heart surgery on the 29th.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[timHealy]

I said I couldn't account for the name disparity!

 

That's funny. Nor could I! I was just trying to contribute by mentioning what I had experienced just two weeks ago and people where saying that I was wrong when I knew I was right. I don't know when they changed the name or why. But don't abuse the messenger. I can't help it if they didn't send out a memo. Oh well.

 

Though it really struck me as odd that Super White Flame Green doesn't look green at all. In fact it looks more like an 85 with a heavy ND or perhaps a heavy Tobacco like filter.

 

best

 

Tim

Edited October 24, 2007 by timHealy