I would love to be someone's trainee

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Is it necessary to go to a really posh film school to become successful?

 

No, but it seems to help. Not because of what you learn, but because of the contacts you make. I believe the people who run Working Title are ex-college friends.

 

Phil

[Morgan Peline]

Yeah, just forget about trying and roll over and die, it's obviously the easiest option.

 

...But seriously, it's very tough and competetive but somebody's got to get the trainee jobs eventually.

 

And actually there's a lot of work available in Europe at the moment. But I'm sure we'll hear all about the difficulties of getting work in Europe as well.

 

When I started cold-calling and sending out cvs when I wanted to be a loader, I first got a weeks worth of work on a series just helping carry stuff, this led to another 2 months worth of camera trainee work on the last block because the loader liked me and then I went straight onto another series (literally the next day) for 6 months because the operator put me forward as he was moving onto that show. The last month I was loading on 2nd unit every now and then for full loaders pay. All that time I was earning trainee wages which is just approx. under £350 a week for drama in the UK - a very liveable wage if you have low expenses and considering all your food is provided. With the contacts I made on these shows, I got more work on another 4-5 different series and eventually a feature all from contacts or being in the 'information loop'.

 

Part of getting that first job is that you get 'on the inside' so that you can stop cold calling. In Film and TV people move from one show to the next regularly. For you to get regular work, all you have to do is simply ask your colleagues what they are going onto and then get the relevant names of people to contact. You then make a call to the right people before anyone else 'on the outside' knows about the potential job and hopefully get that job by dropping some names. It's not what you know, it's who you know.

 

Trainees are usually the last people to get hired, if you phone up with the right credentials and know the right mutual friends and contacts, you'll be saving the production office a lot of work, if they, the focus puller or loader don't have someone lined up, so they will consider you.

 

And as for cv sending. I've sent out cvs to 20 offices at a go and a week later, someone has offered me a job on tv series for a week, that would have eventually become another 6 months worth of work, if I hadn't already been booked for something else. I've even had calls from other shows I never even contacted in the first place offering me work because someone suggested me or faxed a cv over from another production that hadn't even hired me, even when I wasn't experienced at all. Even production types from different offices phone each other to ask for crewing suggestions when they run out of their own 'available' people to contact. You have to be there at the right place at the right time. Remember a lot of it goes like this: 'Oh why don't you use so and so, Joe used him for blah blah and said he was good, he seemed like a nice guy when he came into the office.' That's how you get work - it's not actually your experience as such, it's that somebody recommended you without actually really knowing how competent you were, because they thought you were nice and had been told by another insider you were 'good'.

 

It can be done, you just have to be persistent and thick skinned and willing to carry a lot of boxes and learn how to make really decent tea. If people sense you really want to do it and learn and they like you, they will give you work. Like in any other business. It works exactly the same way in Hollywood regardless of the fact there is more work, there are also many more technicians as well, not everyone works all of the time.

 

Another acquaintance of mine worked as a trainee in the North, and then moved up to the odd day's loading here and there on 2nd units for different shows. She then made a good impression with someone and ended up getting 8 months worth of work as trainee/loader on the last Harry Potter film on very decent wages.

 

So at least try, or get a job in telesales, either way you will learn to handle rejection, but I sure know which option is more exciting when you do eventually make that first 'sale'.

 

Phil, I really must stop taking your bait, regardless of whether you really are this negative, you're such a wind up merchant! ;)

 

I keep ending up writing whole novels just to disagree with you!

 

Morgan

[Guest fstop]

Has anyone else noticed that "The Little Engine That Could" is going downhill with a clown at the controls?....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now, The Little Engine doesn't neccesarily agree that accepting a Bruckheimer picture is a credilibility ending sell-out...

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

If you honestly believe it's that easy to pull six months' work out of thin air, then either you have been incredibly lucky, or you know someone (lots of people I've met who are in similarly commanding positions claim vehemently that they don't, but eventually you find out they do.) The reason I say this is that there aren't very many series shooting in the UK that require camera departments in the feature film sense, considerably less than a dozen a year, which is six months' work for less than twenty-four camera assistants! You can't argue the numbers. If you've been sending out 20 CVs and getting months of work out of it, you should know that's an absolutely UNPRECEDENTED level of success, and I think it's somewhat irresponsible to lead beginners to expect that sort of thing to work. £350 a week for a trainee? Jesus, how long ago WAS this, and in which alternate universe? Trainees don't get paid on UK film shoots. I have occasionally managed it, but only because the guy in question was being particularly nice about it.

 

And this whole "be nice and they'll hire you again" drivel. In my experience it tends to be "be nice and they'll dump you for someone cheaper" even if you're working for almost nothing they'll find someone who'll do it for free.

 

Phil

[Morgan Peline]

But that's the point. I was very lucky to get that first week but once I got in, where I got paid as I have been in every single trainee job I have ever done, the crew liked me...or my attitude... so much that I got 2 months on that first series and then another 6 on the next because the operator took me with him. So after that first cv got me through the door all the work subsequent was because I knew people. So essentially that first cv allowed me to meet people who offered me 8 months work. You have to play the game. Sure I had a good looking cv: 2 years of film school, dozens of loading and focus pulling jobs for student shorts, but that's the point. I made my cv look like any other young up and coming loader's, full of loading credits even though I've worked on loads more things in other capacities. Actually learning 'real' camera assisting was a big shock to the system at first.

 

On 16mm drama, apart from one particular series shot by Yorkshire Television a few years ago, I have never heard of a camera trainees not getting paid. The least I ever earned as trainee was £275 a week, two years ago. I don't know if it's different with video but I've always worked with film mostly. Actually the one time I did work on video I did get considersably less but I still got paid.

 

Coming from film school looks ok on a cv, having loads of freebie student loading jobs looks better, having one weeks worth of camera trainee experience of making very good tea looks even better. Knowing so an so who suggested you phone this person and mention their name as well as having that kind of tea making experience will get you the next job and the next etc. And everytime you play that game and have a better cv to show, you become more marketable. You have to play the game! - Of course it's about who you know but you can't not but meet people once you get that first job. The difficulty is getting that first job and staying in touch with the people you meet.

 

Another point is that the trainee role is a job like any other not a training post - I could type you a specific job description of what a good trainee should be capable of. Treat it like a job - with the sense of attention to detail that you plan to carry out throughout your camera career - be the best, most professional trainee ever and you will get work. I was only ever so so :(

...but I still got work.

 

If you want to be a loader, make sure that your cv shows that you want to be a loader. Production types don't care if you directed, lit or operated. When I was going for trainee jobs, on paper I made myself look like a loader. Specialise if you can. If you want to work on film, get as many film trainee jobs as possible, if possible.

 

Next volley?

[Patrick Neary]

Now, The Little Engine doesn't neccesarily agree that accepting a Bruckheimer picture is a credilibility ending sell-out...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of how it sometimes seems like a perfect metaphor for my own career... :)

 

 

More to the point at hand, and to toss a little optimistic note out there, I know that when I work with a new crew person, an AC, grip or whatever, if they are a positive force during the shoot, and work hard, etc etc, I do everything I can to get them back for the next one.

 

A guy I worked with here in oregon on one small job moved to LA and started gripping right out of the gate, and now (only several months later) is so busy that I have a hard time scheduling him on my own shoots down there. He works like a trooper and is great fun to have on set, and knows what he's doing. It's hard to find that in any crew.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

You must appreciate that your situation is highly atypical. I don't want to be confrontational but you really should reconsider reciting this stuff in a public forum - it's very easy to set someone up for a very big fall. If you've managed to scrape out a living on one of the pathetically minute number of 16mm dramas that are happening here, well done, but it is dangerous to peddle the idea as the status quo. I appreciate that it's difficult to appreciate what the situation is if you've managed to bypass the worst of it, but the reality is that there are already a lot of people who will never be able to afford to retire or own property in the UK on the basis of this. This does have a very real effect on people's lives which I am sure you don't want to be responsible for. Please, cut the crap and be more realistic.

 

Phil

[Bill Totolo]

"The first obstacle to breaking into the entertainment industry is breaking into the entertainment industry".

[Morgan Peline]

Maybe the situation is more difficult now but I can honestly say that I know several people who started as trainees in the last 5 years who are making a good living now - like I keep saying, someone's got to get those few jobs. So it can't all be crap if there's proof that there are newcomers to the industry. Hell, I know another friend of mine who's only been doing it for a few years and he just jumps from series to series now. Proof that some people can do it, not all but some. Maybe there is more work up North...did I really just say that? Or maybe we just have our own unofficial northern mafia...'cos once you're pard a da family...sorry, Godfather was on cable tonight, after watching it countless times, it's still such a great, great film - just keeps getting better every time I watch it!

 

And to be frank, with the way house prices are going these days, most people starting out can't afford to buy a first house anyway, regardless of what job they do - so what's the difference? £100,000 for an averagely decent house in an average neighbourhood, if you're lucky?

 

Anyway, I'm moving on to a different job now...guess in a couple of years time I'll just start cold calling people again...

 

'Nuff said :)

[Greg Gross]

Hello Laura,

Congratulations on your soon to be graduation from film school. Well I guess

they have made things look pretty impossible for you. I never went to film

school but I wish that I could have gone that route. I just got back from location

on a indie film on atlantic coast. Entire project was shot along the ocean,had a

lot of contrast to deal with during daytime. I'm not able to talk about title or

story at this time. I plan to post some location photos when I am permitted to

do so. Well kid when you are at the bottom there is only one direction to go

and that is up. I work five days a week in medicine to get five days off to spend

on cinematography and my photography studio. I specialize in weaning patients

off of ventilators. By the time they get to my facility its their last stop,if we don't

get them off the ventilator,they won't get another chance. Its pretty hard for me

to say that anything is impossible because I'm used to doing impossible things

and constantly solving problems. I did two tours of combat duty in Vietnam and

I was in the the 1st/16th rangers, quit is not a word in my vocabulary. Have you

thought about starting out as a production assistant? You may get the coffee de-

tail for a while! I have a few friends in the business,one is a writer and wrote

for a very famous sitcom until it was canceled(had a long run) he also directs

and produces. E-mail me at- PD170user@yahoo.com. Good luck and best regards

for sucess! Greg Gross,Professional Photographer/student cinematographer

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

If she starts off as a production assistant she will still be a production assistant in five, ten, or fifteen years - although obviously she won't, because she'll be financially forced to find something better. There is no advancement in the UK; they hire you, abuse you for less than minimum wage if you're paid at all, then get someone else when you get fed up with it.

 

Phil

[Justin Hayward]

Hi,

 

"I'm 26 and know I've already missed any chance I may have had at big time filmmaking."

 

I'm 26 and you're making me nervous, but I don't live in the UK. So, I guess I got that going for me.

 

Have you decided what you're going to do for a living? Now that cinematography is out of the question, do you have a plan B! You've been posting on this site for a long time, but your posts never sound as if you've given up trying to make it at "big time filmmaking". George C. Scott once said "Try and if you fail, try again. But, if you fail again, give up. No use in being a damn fool about it." I agree. So, what's your plan B? I might need suggestions if I decide to give up.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

At the moment I'm doing a lot of very small-time documentary - finished an eighteen-month historic-building-reconstruction docco shoot about six months ago; got another one just started and another again in the offing. None of these are anything more than will be sold on DVD in the gift shop of the historic house concerned; it's mainly a way for them to document their use of public funds rather than something to sell. I guess it might be possible to place them on the history channel or something - old stuff from the Old Country seems to go down OK in the US - but I have no idea how to go about pursuing that. They're quite nice but the pay isn't all that and they're completely dead end.

 

Phil

[Tony Brown]

A few home truths.

 

Your chances of success are based on three things. Personality, Talent and Luck.

 

The harder you try, the luckier you will get. that?s a fact.

 

Talent is a tough one. Personally I never went to film school, I didn't even know they existed in the 70's when I left school. The film school trained people I have worked with since I have little regard for (generalisation obviously). your ability to absorb, filter and store information from the floor (the real world) is key.

 

Your personality is perhaps the hero factor. NOBODY wants the voice of doom turning up every day. Its a tough job, sometimes the hours are long and the conditions can be poop. Even when the rewards are high, it can still be a tough day. A unit NEEDS uplifting positive attitudes. Work may be hard and arduous, but it has to be fun. Otherwise what?s the point? If we try out a new assistant or video assist guy, he can be fantastic at his/her job, but if he never stops complaining he'll never come back. Harsh maybe but its a fact of life.

 

Your expectations on being a trainee may be shattered when you walk on the floor. You be more of a slave for the 2nd A/C than a student of the D.o.P. You will have precious little time to make sketches and notes, ask questions etc. And really why should you take any precedent over the 1st and 2nd A/C? they?ve already put in years of hard work and more than likely have the same ambitions as yourself. They may well ( I say this because its what I?ve always thought) view you as somebody trying to fast track your way up instead of ?doing your time?. It may well be an old school attitude, but don?t think its not out there. Coupled with the fact you?re female, I?m afraid you?ve picked a tough combo in the UK. I rarely shoot here Laura, 90% of my work is overseas, I can think of no other country (possibly India) where I have seen fewer females occupying the ?technical? grades. They appear from time to time, but have limited success.

 

Be persistent, but be aware and be sensitive, otherwise people who could be of great benefit to you will suddenly be quite the opposite, without you even knowing why.

 

Commercials in the UK are absolutely flying by the way, so talk to the rental companies and find out who is shooting, then contact them. The tax breaks for films has again been amended and the ?talk? at least is very positive for the immediate future.

 

Best of luck to you.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> They may well ( I say this because its what I?ve always thought) view you as

> somebody trying to fast track your way up instead of ?doing your time?.

 

Well that is the universal attitude, and the reason I find it particularly annoying is that it's never made clear what "doing your time" is. I have no idea how Mr. Brown got involved in this kind of work, but I'm willing to bet that it's a career path that no longer exists. It is no longer possible to "do your time" with the only possible exception being if you want to be a director of light ents you can go and be a documentary researcher at the BBC. Almost all the Tony-Brown-like people I know started off as studio cameramen or vision engineers for people like ITN. These jobs do not exist anymore, it's all freelancers and to be one of them you have to have done the job full time for a while - it's circular logic, what the hell are we supposed to do?

 

On the odd contact I've had with UK crews on things like music videos, they tend to be rather sullen, suspicous people. Everybody knows that the situation is utter crap and a new face is nothing more than imminent competition for a job that's hopelessly oversubscribed anyway. The "be persistent" thing has got to be an absolute killer; the more you call them, the more they'll be aware that the competition is waiting in the wings (and will probably stand lower wages, worse conditions, etc) and the more they'll hate you for it. I hate to be repetitive but experience has taught me to asolutely never, but never, cold call anyone in the hope of finding work. Not only will you not get work, but every call moves you one step close to the top of a mental blacklist which means you will never get any interest from anyone even remotely associated with the production. So the harder you try, I've found, the less likely anyone is to want to have anything to do with you. Whatever you do, do not be the irksome, ever-present wannabe whining for work. It simply will not happen.

 

Personally I think that being female would be a gigantic help, not a hindrance. Anything that makes you unusual can't help but improve things.

 

And yes the work has to be fun or we wouldn't all be here, on the very rare occasion (four, five times a year) I get to work on anything that the rest of this board would consider to be a professional shoot it's fantastic, regardless of the fact that these tend to be the most poorly paid work I do. Just be aware that all the people who do that five days a week know that they only get to keep doing it by keeping YOU out. Everyone knows what the situation is whether they choose to hide it behind a layer of film industry bullshit or not, and everyone will immediately know what you are and what you're trying to do, and they will do their absolute utmost to stop you.

 

Phil

[Greg Gross]

Well Phil when it is all said and done you are still sitting there as a cinematographer

with no current shoot. I presume from your posts in the past that you are a good

one. Here's a quote from me, a respiratory therapist,Professional Photographer

with my own studio,student cinematographer:

FINDING A JOB IS A FULL TIME JOB

I just got back from a two week shoot a long the atlantic coast. I was the DP,yes

me the student! Because I was able to convince those producing that I could do

the job. Believe me I did not get paid what David Mullen ASC gets paid(I have a

lot of respect for him and his posts). I got my meals paid for,I got educated a lot,

got yelled at a lot,got my room free(some nights I slept on the set) my salary was

small and know what? I would't trade that moment in my life for anything!

Stand-by,Roll Audio,Roll Camera,Action. When its all said and done if you want to

be a cinematographer you just have to go do it,be one. Even if that means making

your own films. Now at least there is one director out there that knows I can do the

job. I'm already working on getting the next shoot lined up. I admire Laura's cour-

age for coming on this forum and asking for help to become a cinematographer.

I'm going to spend all the spare time I have,trying to help her find a job. If I ever

get anywhere then she can work for me, I want someone that courageous! Good

luck with your present situation Phil and I hope you aquire some work.

Greg Gross,Professional Photographer

Student Cinematographer

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I have never referred to myself as a cinematographer and nor would I until the work I do is of a titanically higher standard than it is at the moment. Only other people have ever called me a director of photography and I cringe every time I see the credit with my name under it.

 

As it happens I'm shooting on Monday but it ain't cinematography, it's ENG style documentary, and if you're getting paid (and paid anything at all is hard enough) then you are already doing a lot better than me, probably because your stills experience makes you a much better DP than someone like me will ever be.

 

I admire Laura's courage as well. All I'm trying to do is to avoid her wasting a lot of time and effort. Discovering that these career paths are not open cost me anything up to three and a half years of my life and any hope I will ever have of laying down a decent preparation for my retirement, and that's completely overlooking the fact that it isn't all that much brighter now. I'd rather people were forewarned about the situation before they waste a lot of time and money on it.

 

Phil

[Greg Gross]

I had times on location when I felt no confidence, one night I got up and dry

heaved. I found that I had to focus on the nexts day shoot. I remembered a

lot about reading Conrad Hall's quotes,where in the beginning he did feel he

did'nt know what he was doing. I did better on the nights that I slept on the

set,instead of at the hotel. Yes, I think being a professional photographer is

helpful. I shoot almost everyday and I'm working with light a lot on those days.

However I do not believe that you have to be a photographer to be a cinematog-

rapher. Phil, best regards for your upcoming shoot!

 

Happy shooting!

Greg Gross,Professional Photographer

Student Cinematogrpaher

[Leon Rodriguez]

Laura,

Chin up, dig in, you'll get there. Stay focused on EXACTLY what you want to do, even you have to work on the periphery of that target.

 

If you get stateside. Call or e-mail me and I'll do what I can. It?s never easy but with enough perseverance, anybody can achieve anything. In the meantime send me a soft copy of your resume. I?ll keep my antennae tuned for you. You never know. I can forward it around.

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

I agree with what Tony said but I'd also say that I think it is valuable if you can have someone who you visit on set as opposed to being an actual trainee.

 

I've had a girl who just finished film school hang out with the camera dep't. and even come to a couple of my commercial shoots. My ACs never really seemed to mind and I never really saw her. She just sat back in a corner watching all day and sat with me at lunch to ask questions. That's probably about as much as you will be able to get.

[Landon D. Parks]

Phil,

I know tons of British people in the U.S. If your possition over there is bad, why nbot come to the U.S?

 

One Brittish chap is from London and he is my best friend.

 

It's not hard to get a visa and passport here, and It is not real hard to become a US resident either.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Woah, you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you! The US is the second most difficult country in the world for immigration, after Australia.

 

Phil

[Pepe Peralta]

Is curious, I had come today with the Idea of posting a "Will work for Food" or "Looking for a DP to work as a Trainee... I'll cross the world if necessary... just need some food and a place to crash when work allows it!"

 

And still have that plan, but after watching the pandemonium caused by Laura's posting and the very little interest anyone here has for giving her a chance to learn, I think I´ll take my chances with the disadvantages of living in a Third World country with a virtually non-existant film industry. I'll keep knocking on everybody´s door. It's a shame that I would probably have to keep working for DP's without experience (that's how the average films here in Peru are done); But you can bet anything you want that I'll take all the best I can learn until becoming the best DP there is, and when I get up there, I'll try to take all the Laura's I can to share my expertise with; and I would have really expected all of you guys with more experience, even if you don't have an ongoing project at the time, to do the same.

 

This is a great job, we should all be enjoying it and sharing our different degrees of expertise with others... I've always heard that unlike any other trade in the film industry, Cinematographers are always sharing their discoveries, their experiences and experimental results, as a great brotherhood; and I swear that's what I was expecting to find here. I hope I'm not mistaken.

 

Have a nice day everybody, hope all of you get great projects and lots of work!

 

Pepe

[Max Jacoby]

Oh, dear. You're graduating into by far the nastiest situation you could possibly imagine; by 2005, the recent tax shakeup will have more or less completely destroyed the ragged remains of the British film industry, making it even harder than it is at the moment. You probably haven't been told this, so I may as well make it quick - there's very little chance you will ever be able to use your qualification in this country.

 

Laura

 

Don't listen to Phil, this is merely one of his numerous attemps to eliminate potential competition by means of discouragement. He is quite successful at it you know... :P

[Max Jacoby]

Woah, you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you! The US is the second most difficult country in the world for immigration, after Australia.

 

Quite a change from the old days then, when Britain used to send all its criminals Down Under...