Has the witer's strike affected you yet?

[Guest]

Regarding Richard....it seems to me that he just hates this business. I read his posts and it just seems like he can't stand the film business or the people who work in it. That is the case, isn't it Richard?

 

So I would spend a year, and my own money, making a feature film because I hate this business?

 

Gee that makes sense.

 

 

R,

[Saul Rodgar]

Look you've got to keep your sense of humour in this business. Neither writers, directors, DOPs, or grips, contribute any thing to society that society can't live without. We are "entertainment" we are not saving lives or curing cancer. Keep this in perspective.

 

Wrong. Have you ever tried living without entertainment? Without art? In those conditions the human soul would surely wither up and die. Which is why the current crop of movies about the war in Iraq are not popular with the general public. Most people need something to keep their minds from what is bogging them down. Never underestimate the healing power of laughter. Watch Preston Sturges' movie "Sullivan's Travels." Why do you think movies are so popular and a billion dollar industry, just because? Surely they are not in the same ballpark to cancer curing, but they certainly contribute to the well being of society as a whole.

 

As for having sense of humor in this business, I am not opposed to it. But you comment was not funny in that it evidenced that you were making fun at the expense of things you don't understand or care about, which is not funny to the people that understand and care about them.

 

Simple.

Edited December 21, 2007 by saulie rodgar

[Marc Alucard]

I know quite a few people that moved to reality television work in 1989. Some are still doing the same show they started on, some created other reality shows.. One moved on to "The Amazing Race" and picked up five Emmy awards.

[Freya Black]

The IATSE is only exclusionary in way that work volume = the volume of workers. Other wise everyone starves. I am sorry but we all can't be everything we wanted. I had to wait for someone to die before I moved up into a position. The rate at which people are graduating film school is higher than the rate of work. If the IATSE did not close its open policy there would not be enough work for its membership to survive. It would make itself contrary. If you cant find work maybe you should find another line of buisness. Darwin holds true for filmmaking too.

 

erm, you seem to be drifting into the world of social darwinism here which is not a good place to be! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

[Guest]

Wrong. Have you ever tried living without entertainment? Without art? In those conditions the human soul would surely wither up and die. Which is why the current crop of movies about the war in Iraq are not popular with the general public. Most people need something to keep their minds from what is bogging them down. Never underestimate the healing power of laughter. Watch Preston Sturges' movie "Sullivan's Travels." Why do you think movies are so popular and a billion dollar industry, just because? Surely they are not in the same ballpark to cancer curing, but they certainly contribute to the well being of society as a whole.

 

As for having sense of humor in this business, I am not opposed to it. But you comment was not funny in that it evidenced that you were making fun at the expense of things you don't understand or care about, which is not funny to the people that understand and care about them.

 

Simple.

 

You equate TV with art? Hmmmm, ok.

 

"Never underestimate the healing power of laughter."

 

Uh yeah, that's what I was saying...until you just said it a different way.

 

"but they certainly contribute to the well being of society as a whole."

 

I agree, my life was changed after I saw "Dumb and Dumber."

 

R,

[robert duke]

Richard,

 

TO put case to you, If you make your film and follow your own advice and beliefs as far as crew and crew rights, you may make one film, or a dozen but eventually it catches up with you. You become known as the guy NOT to work for. The guy to not return phone calls. It doesnt matter how much you pay, If you treat people the way you describe they will not work for you. Things have a way of catching up with you.

 

I wish you luck, I hope that we as a collective of voices have had a benificial effect on you. I wish that you heard what we are saying.

 

If you want Quality, you have to pay for it, not neccessarily with $$ but with acts of good faith as well.

 

As for travel, I live far outside the "zone" I work as a local though. It puts me out of the running for mileage. I CHOOSE to live here. I dont choose where the work is. An Hour drive after 12-16hrs makes for a dangerous life on the road. Many accidents have happened from productions running late and people getting on the road. As far as mileage is deserved, if you call an AC out of toronto to drive an Hour each way ( 2hrs a day) he has to include that time away from his family, he has not chosen to shoot out there, production has.

 

I once watched our boom operator wreck his motorcycle on the 101 driving home after a 20hr day, we were shooting in malibu and we lived in downtown LA. (easily an hour drive with traffic) He survived but did not finish the show due to the accident. He said he fell asleep on the bike. Production had to find a replacement. Think of the hours of production time locating a new boom op. time better spent working on fixing a schedule.

[Freya Black]

Look you've got to keep your sense of humour in this business. Neither writers, directors, DOPs, or grips, contribute any thing to society that society can't live without. We are "entertainment" we are not saving lives or curing cancer. Keep this in perspective.

 

Assuming their work is essentially worthless because they don't contribute anything (which is a whole other thing but lets just go with it for now), I would point out that they are still people, they still have lives and feelings and may be special to people beyond their value to the world as employment fodder. This is where things get more complicated because they need resources to survive and be those people that they are outside of their job. I guess it can be easy to forget about that if you are an employer and to only see them their value in terms of the work they do but it's important to remember that they have value as people too.

 

...and to just throw something into the not contributing anything debate. If entertainment is so worthless to society then why do people pay for it? People obviously value it.

 

Lastly if you see it as not contributing anything then why do you do it?

Unless you just hope to become rich of course but I assume not as there are easier ways of going about that! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

[Brad Grimmett]

So I would spend a year, and my own money, making a feature film because I hate this business?

 

R,

You tell me. Maybe you did it just to try to make money....I don't know. But so many of your posts display the disdain you seem to have for crew members and this business in general, so it's hard to think that you like it. You rant and rave about how awful unions and crew members are, but I don't know that I've ever seen you write something positive about the business or the people working in it.

My point is this: Everyone gets frustrated with their work, and/or the people they work with now and again, and they either keep doing that job and hating it (most people), change professions, or try to take the good with the bad and attempt to enjoy their time working and the people they work with. And from your posts it seems like you can't stand the business or the people in it, but keep doing it anyway. Maybe it's just in your posts that this is the case, I don't know. I just wanted to point out that a lot of your posts appear to be very derogatory in relation to the business.

Hey, I'm probably wrong. And I'm certainly off topic for this thread!

[Saul Rodgar]

You equate TV with art? Hmmmm, ok.

 

"Never underestimate the healing power of laughter."

 

Uh yeah, that's what I was saying...until you just said it a different way.

 

"but they certainly contribute to the well being of society as a whole."

 

I agree, my life was changed after I saw "Dumb and Dumber."

 

R,

 

 

Well if you don't think motion picture -which includes TV- is art, why are you working in the industry? What motivates YOU to get up and the morning to try to get your pictures made? Come on, you can do better than that . . . Need I cite glaringly obvious examples of why motion picture is an "artistic" endeavor? And not all movies are "Dumb and Dumber." Man, you really know better than that . . .

[Brad Grimmett]

I agree, my life was changed after I saw "Dumb and Dumber."

 

R,

That sure is ironic sarcasm.

There are many TV shows and movies that have been important in my life and have changed me. I don't think I need to make a list.

Sure, there are a lot of "entertainment only" shows and movies, and they serve their purpose and have value.

[Freya Black]

I've been a little shocked by the whole catering it's such a drag and why do we need to have it thing.

The reason is that I guess I've always fancied the idea of having a proper shoot with crew and lots of actors and actresses and I actually fantasize about all the neat goodies I could get cheap. I guess I think it could be a bit like a party in a way. Obviously the kind of shoots I am thinking of everyone would be working for free anyway (England = No film industry) and I guess that's part of my perspective because I'd like them to have a good tme and think that was fun lets do it again sometime! :) (I'd probably end up feeding them unhealthy crap fun food tho. eeek!)

 

That would of course be people doing things for fun, and I guess if you are properly employing people it's different and you definitely don't want to go mixing buisness and pleasure up because then you can get people not understanding one another.

 

Actually I did have one shoot with acting people and one of my actresses scored us free sandwiches and pop and we were all very happy and had a good time. Yay! :)

 

love

 

Freya

[Guest]

Richard,

 

TO put case to you, If you make your film and follow your own advice and beliefs as far as crew and crew rights, you may make one film, or a dozen but eventually it catches up with you. You become known as the guy NOT to work for. The guy to not return phone calls. It doesnt matter how much you pay, If you treat people the way you describe they will not work for you. Things have a way of catching up with you.

 

I wish you luck, I hope that we as a collective of voices have had a benificial effect on you. I wish that you heard what we are saying.

 

If you want Quality, you have to pay for it, not neccessarily with $$ but with acts of good faith as well.

 

Good grief I keep saying over and over and over and over and over....that on my film I did NOT try and cut people's day rates. Every one got FREE hot food, and we never worked a 12 hour day.

 

Many members of my crew are on this forum they'll tell you what it was like.

 

I am simply pointing out that there are some "situations" like the driving situation I have described that I won't accept.

 

 

You tell me. Maybe you did it just to try to make money....

 

Uhhhh, yeah, why the hell else?

 

 

Well if you don't think motion picture -which includes TV- is art, why are you working in the industry? What motivates YOU to get up and the morning to try to get your pictures made? Come on, you can do better than that

 

 

This is just a business to me, and 99% of the producers out there, you make the product, you sell it. End.

 

R,

[Saul Rodgar]

This is just a business to me, and 99% of the producers out there, you make the product, you sell it. End.

 

R,

 

 

Yeah, so if you cameraman shoots garbage and your actors are stiff as wooden toys your "business" then flourishes, right? Why aren't you in pig farming then?

 

You are defending the indefensible here. Without art, motion pictures are nothing.

 

But you -and the rest of the producers out there- just live in denial and you'll be fine, eh?

Edited December 21, 2007 by saulie rodgar

[robert duke]

For centuries humanity has created Theater. Theater was around before the greeks, basic storytelling. It is as basic as emotions and cathartic situations. Humanity created Film as an extension of theater. Yes there is a lot of CRAP. Richard have you seen your movies? Are they worthwhile to the cause of human condition? All stories in some manner worth repeating are valued to the human condition. We strive to see someone we identify with in some way to remind us we are a collective of people feeling.

 

Yes life could go on without filmmaking and movies. The quality of life would suffer. Man would find another avenue for story telling and sharing of the Human condition. We all have forever been altered by this which we work in. You have a favorite movie, you have a favorite story. It doesnt matter who you are. Movies are an extension of our connectivity to one another.

 

How many dates have you take to a movie? How many hours have you "wasted" in front of a TV? Even Osama bin Laden watches TV and goes to the Movies.

 

You can't say movies are fluff. Everyone finds something of value in movies, That is why it is a billion plus dollar industry.

[robert duke]

Good grief I keep saying over and over and over and over and over....that on my film I did NOT try and cut people's day rates. Every one got FREE hot food, and we never worked a 12 hour day.

 

Many members of my crew are on this forum they'll tell you what it was like.

 

I am simply pointing out that there are some "situations" like the driving situation I have described that I won't accept.

 

 

 

 

Uhhhh, yeah, why the hell else?

 

 

 

 

 

This is just a business to me, and 99% of the producers out there, you make the product, you sell it. End.

 

 

There are easier ways to make money. there are easier ways to make a lot more.

[Walter Graff]

I know quite a few people that moved to reality television work in 1989. Some are still doing the same show they started on, some created other reality shows.. One moved on to "The Amazing Race" and picked up five Emmy awards.

 

Ah the nineties. I worked on nine talk shows back then. Man was the money good. On one show I was contracted to work three days a week pretty much around the clock the producing and shooting for three days and editing at home at night to deliver on time. I used to love those $12k a week checks. The best doctors couldn't do that. It was a killer, but then again I choose to do it. And to think I was doing that, directing at an agency, and was the lighting director for the NBA. Of course my wake up call was when I was working so many hours as not to be able to do any of the jobs well. Folks don't have the choice today and they certainly don't make the money we used to make. THey probalb y work as hard as I did hten, but for what?

 

Right now, there are so many folks suffering in NY who are novices to production that it's unbelievable. I had a PA tell me the other day that I am it for her. Without me she is nothing and would have to leave NY. She nearly made it sound like she'd die without me telling me I'm all she has. And with the state of the economy and the lousy jobs out there for folks who are starting out or just in it for a few years, we are going to see a glut of people with no money, and a lot of soul searching and career changing.

[Walter Graff]

How many dates have you take to a movie? How many hours have you "wasted" in front of a TV?

 

 

Yea but most of the porn theaters are gone so ther goes dating and the porn you rent today is boring so you don't end up even finsihing it. :rolleyes: ;) :lol: :P

[robert duke]

erm, you seem to be drifting into the world of social darwinism here which is not a good place to be! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

 

Freya,

 

I am sorry but social darwinism or not it is a truth. People who cannot survive in the industry leave it. It happened in the 80's on the last writer's strike. Talk to the old timers. The number of "old timers" is few not because they all died, many left because they could not make a living. I have had dear friends who taught me about lighting, grip, and camera retire early to open bars, start Ad agencies, etc. because they had to pay the bills.

[Freya Black]

Uhhhh, yeah, why the hell else?

 

This is just a business to me, and 99% of the producers out there, you make the product, you sell it. End.

 

R,

 

I found it kind of funny to read this after my posting because I was just saying about mixing buisness with pleasure and people ending up not understanding one another!

 

However Richard, I'd say that it's also kind of useful that people see it as fun because then they will probably work for less and do a better job. If everyone saw it entirely as buisness they would probably want to be paid more and not to work silly hours, there would be less people doing the job and those pesky unions would be in a stronger position too. ;) So maybe in a way some of the stuff you see as being silly and not relevant to the buisness might actually be kinda useful. You probably already worked this out partially tho, cause as you said you provided hot meals and looked after the people on your shoot.

 

Otherwise crew would be like, you make the product, you get paid. End.

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

Freya,

 

I am sorry but social darwinism or not it is a truth. People who cannot survive in the industry leave it. It happened in the 80's on the last writer's strike. Talk to the old timers. The number of "old timers" is few not because they all died, many left because they could not make a living. I have had dear friends who taught me about lighting, grip, and camera retire early to open bars, start Ad agencies, etc. because they had to pay the bills.

 

My point is that maybe it's best that it is the truth and it isn't anything to do with Darwin, because that leads somewhere kind of horrible in a whole load of intresting ways that you really don't want to go to! ;)

 

It's just a really bad analogy, one that doesn't fit that well anyway and obviously one with a really horrid history. It also leads directly into a number of other places you probably don't want to be! ;)

 

Best to just leave Darwin where he belongs!

 

love

 

Freya

[Brad Grimmett]

Uhhhh, yeah, why the hell else?

 

This is just a business to me, and 99% of the producers out there, you make the product, you sell it. End.

 

R,

OK, so you're only in it for the money. Fine. I can understand why you don't like your crew then...they cost money, money that you want in your own pocket.

[Michael Most]

This is one of the more bizarre traditions of the film industry, why do film workers expect, and get free food on set?

 

I think you have some inaccurate ideas about how this works, at least in Los Angeles based production. Food is provided in the form of craft service throughout the day, but the only thing that's really "expected" of craft service is what's normally provided in many industries, and that's coffee, drinks, and snacks. If you're talking about catering, that is something that is normally provided only on location (with a reduced lunch break) or in situations where food is not directly available without leaving the studio, such as in some warehouse stage situations. For shows that live on studio lots, catering is not normally provided except on specific occasions at the discretion of the producer - for instance, a crew screening of a television show episode, or perhaps a late call.

 

The other thing that blows me away is how film workers often expect mileage to and from the set.

 

The only time mileage is provided in Los Angeles is when the location is outside of the 30 mile studio zone.

[David Mullen ASC]

I will say that I often think that the level of catering is a bit over the top on many shoots, sort of restaurant level cooking, which is too rich day after day. Crews can be rather spoiled in that regard.

 

On the other hand, on my last show out of town, we had the sort of mediocre catering that only a producer could love, I think our chef would have been fired if he worked for a high school cafeteria. There was no joy in his cooking. As I ate the same dry chicken and chewy beef, and over-boiled vegetables, day after day, even I was ready to stage a mutiny. It was fine once or twice, but week after week, for a month, it became a form of torture. And my living arrangement had no working fridge where I could store perishables. By the fourth week, huge swaths of the crew disappeared for lunch, some coming back late. The producer eventually got the caterer to switch chefs, but the improvement was marginal.

[Guest]

"Richard have you seen your movies? Are they worthwhile to the cause of human condition? "

 

No of course not!!

 

And please don't tell me there is much of any thing on TV or in the movie theaters that is..."worthwhile to the cause of human condition."

 

As Rupert Murdoch once famously put it, "the purpose of TV is to sell soap." I mean it's like I'm having a discussion with a bunch of CBC employees here.

 

Yeah, Hollywood turns out movies so they can improve the human condition, money is not their motivation. Ok, yeah right. Listen I have some property in New Orleans I want you to see.

 

"OK, so you're only in it for the money. Fine. I can understand why you don't like your crew then...they cost money, money that you want in your own pocket."

 

Brad...I seriously wonder if you and I are even reading the same thread???????

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

Richard, keep in mind -- this is an election year plus there is an industry strike going on, so passions are high and tempers are short. Even the most apolitical of us is liable to sound like a revolutionary these days...