This one's for us

[James Steven Beverly]

NOOOOO, I truly believe there is a great deal of discrimination in the film industry. Everyone TALKS the talk so as not to get sued but the quiet back-handed discrimination goes on unabated. In an industry where paying jobs are hard to to get and NOBODY wants to rock the boat, they never tell you to your face you're not good enough, they just don't hire you, with 50 people for every job, who's gonna be able to prove they are bigoted? All they've got to say is Hey there were 30 GUYS I didn't hire either. It's much more insidious than putting it out in the cold light of day. Women have to work 5 times as hard to get 1:50th the work than men do in our industry and those that do make it are afraid to loose what ever they've gained so they don't make waves or if the do, they stop being hired and if you think it's all just because the girls don't want to play then you're living in denial....or just plain not paying attention. I wonder how many girls never even tried because everyone told them it was a man's job or un-lady like, what a shame, all that wasted talent that the world will never benefit from, that's the real crime! :angry:

Edited November 29, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[Matt Pacini]

Regarding a few choice statements in the post above:

 

"...they never tell you to your face you're not good enough, they just don't hire you"

 

If a person isn't good enough at a job, it's not unfair discrimination. Whether or not they tell you that to your face is irrelevant. If I apply for a job tomorrow as an investment banker, they're not going to tell me I'm unqualified, they just won't call me. I fail to see how that's somehow evidence of discrimination? This is how the entire job market works for everyone.

 

"...with 50 people for every job, who's gonna be able to prove they are bigoted? "

 

Well, that's a good point: THERE IS NO PROOF. Yet the accusations continue to be made, based on one fact alone: there are less women in the film industry than men.

That is not proof of discrimination, any more than the fact there are less men administration assistants is proof there is discrimination there.

 

Look, the fact that there IS so much more supply than demand means that LOTS of qualified (as well as unqualified) people DON'T get the job.

So what you have here, is a LOT of people not getting hired, and if they're not white males, they sit around wondering if it's their sex or skin color.

And all the political correctness just further convinces them that is what's going on. PC doesn't help the problem between the races or the sexes, it inflames it even more.

 

"...I wonder how many girls never even tried because everyone told them it was a man's job or un-lady like..."

 

I'd guess LOTS, as a result of all the politically correct comments and opinions about this. What I'm saying DOES NOT make them think this.

What you guys are saying DOES make them think this.

 

MP

[James Steven Beverly]

Regarding a few choice statements in the post above:

 

"...they never tell you to your face you're not good enough, they just don't hire you"

 

If a person isn't good enough at a job, it's not unfair discrimination. Whether or not they tell you that to your face is irrelevant. If I apply for a job tomorrow as an investment banker, they're not going to tell me I'm unqualified, they just won't call me. I fail to see how that's somehow evidence of discrimination? This is how the entire job market works for everyone.

 

How do you know if a person is qualified if you never give them the chance? That's the reason the government instituted Affirmative Action in the 60s and 70s so minorities would get the chance and LOW AND BEHOLD a LOT of them turned out to be JUST as qualified as anyone else! Who woulda thought by fairly giving people the opportunity, they were ACTUALLY able to do the job, go figure :rolleyes:

 

"...with 50 people for every job, who's gonna be able to prove they are bigoted? "

 

Well, that's a good point: THERE IS NO PROOF. Yet the accusations continue to be made, based on one fact alone: there are less women in the film industry than men.

That is not proof of discrimination, any more than the fact there are less men administration assistants is proof there is discrimination there.

 

Look, the fact that there IS so much more supply than demand means that LOTS of qualified (as well as unqualified) people DON'T get the job.

So what you have here, is a LOT of people not getting hired, and if they're not white males, they sit around wondering if it's their sex or skin color.

And all the political correctness just further convinces them that is what's going on. PC doesn't help the problem between the races or the sexes, it inflames it even more.

 

and in MANY cases it IS their sex or skin color or the employers preconceived notions of what someone is or is not capable of doing which is why discrimination against hiring physically challenged people is now illegal and public building have ramps and handicap equipped rest rooms, you're probably too young to remember when all that poop didn't exist and "crippled" people as they were referred to where relegated to a stasis that was somewhat less than human. Until women are actively sought out for these jobs there will never be equality in the film industry and our art will never honestly reflect the truth of who we are.

 

"...I wonder how many girls never even tried because everyone told them it was a man's job or un-lady like..."

 

I'd guess LOTS, as a result of all the politically correct comments and opinions about this. What I'm saying DOES NOT make them think this.

No, not what you say in particular, but the general false assumptions that have formed those opinions and the many men in positions of power the consciously or unconsciously act on them.

 

What you guys are saying DOES make them think this.

 

MP

 

No, what we're doing is putting into words what they have felt all their lives. They feel these things, as any with any human beings subjected to inequity, whether we make these statements or not. I don't need to tell THEM it's harder for women to make it in the film industry because of the prejudices of men, I need to tell YOU it's harder for women to make it in the film industry because of the prejudices of men. If you don't believe me, ask 'em. B)

[Kirsty Stark]

As a female, I have to admit that a couple of the 'stereotypes' that have been made in this topic are true for me. I know that I'm less strong than a lot of males on set, and I also have less interest in the tiny technical details relating to cameras than some. However, at the same time, these things aren't stopping me from doing what I want to do, and I don't think I've ever been treated differently for being female. People often appear surprised at how much I *can* do due to their expectation that I won't be able to, although this I think comes down to the strength aspect rather than a gender one. Plus, I have the advantage of being tall, (185cm), which often comes in handy!

 

I was discussing this issue with one of my male cinematography friends the other day, as we went to an industry event where 90% of the people there were male. We got to the point of wondering whether the actual craft / look of film is different between genders, i.e. do women shoot differently to men? (I know it's not a black and white issue, but in general terms, has anyone noticed any differences (that aren't necessarily true of every male or every female?)

 

And speaking of physical strength - does anyone have any recommendations for exercises / training programs specifically targeted for working in the camera department?

[Phil Rhodes]

Interesting medico-factoid.

 

It has been suggested that men have congenitally coarser muscle fibre than women and that this has two effects. Chunker muscle fibre (as distinct from just chunkier muscles generally) is more powerful but less precise, and has less endurance as it's more difficult to diffuse oxygen in and lactic acid out of a larger solid object.

 

Needless to say as with most of this stuff it's a fifteenth-percentile issue, and 85 percent of the population will be in a zone which would be normal for either gender, so it's not an issue that should lead to anyone being hired on that basis. As a practical matter, the average woman will tire more slowly than the average man when lifting a given proportion of capacity, but in practice it's not really about proportions of capacity, it's about absolutes, and the guy will be lifting more to begin with.

 

If you wanted to be a real perfectionist, what you actually want is a mix of people.

 

Oh yeah, that's what we've been saying all along...

 

Phil

[Danish Puthan Valiyandi]

And speaking of physical strength - does anyone have any recommendations for exercises / training programs specifically targeted for working in the camera department?

 

Everything about a strong back and shoulders. Workout on a rowing machine is a good start.

The earlier you begin the better it is.

 

greets,

-Dan

[Alex Haspel]

aw and the so often mentioned role models... i accidentally stumbled across a pa'ing job for an independent short, so i found myself on a set knowing exactly nothing about filmmaking but as soon as i had figured out who was doing what (took me almost 2 days) i was very much drawn to what i used do call "the magic department" guess what that is... so the two guys making up the department alex and alex who seamed like the impersonated mc guyvers to me became my role models and are untill today, especially when it comes to creative missuse of equipment.

 

How incredibly nice of you, i am genuinely flattered. Blushing, actually.

 

Well, except for that missuse part.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Alex Haspel

[Alex Haspel]

And for that whole gender/strenght discussion going on here,

Anna almost beat me in arm wrestling at the last wrap party of that gig that was cancelled after the test shoots.

 

But seriously, i dont see why women should not not be able to work in the camera department.

The amount of lifting that has to be done is considerably less than for example in the grip/electric department

and i have experienced women working there too, even having worked up the way to gaffers....

 

Another up- or downside, i havent yet completely worked out which of the two it is, is that the intellectual level

of jokes rises directly proportional to the amount of women within a department.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Alex Haspel

[Matt Pacini]

Who ever said women should not be allowed to work in the camera department?

 

I certainly didn't, even though I was repeatedly accused of that in this thread.

Women should be allowed to do whatever they are qualified to do... and the reverse is also true, of both men and women.

 

MP