Film Transfer

ken brown · May 9, 2008

Hello,

Post Production is not my strong suite, although i am going to take a shot at it. I will be editing with FCP on my macbook pro and i am wondering what types of questions i will run into when transferring my footage to a hard drive?

Can anyone recommend a better format to have it transfered to? Should i have it put onto a digibeta or HD cam first and then transferred to hard drives?

Any help or guidance you all could offer would be a huge help!

Thanks,

Kenneth

Saul Rodgar · May 10, 2008

10-bit Quicktime 4:4:4 (or 4:2:2) uncompressed files are HUGE and will put ANY machine through its paces. If you are using FCP 6, Pro Res 422 is pretty darn good and quite lighter in file size than the uncompressed variant. Some people hate it, but I think it looks quite good.

It depends on the footage and project. If you are ever going back out to film, 4:4:4 uncompressed is the way to go. If you are finishing on HD, Pro Res 422 may be the better way.

Unless you go to HDCAM SR (4:4:4), HDCAM (4:2:2) or D5 (up to 4:4:4), it is better to go straight to hard drive. FYI, Digibeta is NOT in the ball park as any of the above formats, being NTSC not HD.

Where are you sending the footage to be scanned?

Adrian Sierkowski · May 10, 2008

I would recommend, as well the pro res 4:2:2 route. I have been seeing a lot of friends of mine getting flat transfers to it here 'round phila @ NFL and/or Shooters, and it seems to hold up pretty well.

Just make sure you back it all up! Drives crash!

Chris Burke · May 10, 2008

Hello,

Post Production is not my strong suite, although i am going to take a shot at it. I will be editing with FCP on my macbook pro and i am wondering what types of questions i will run into when transferring my footage to a hard drive?

Can anyone recommend a better format to have it transfered to? Should i have it put onto a digibeta or HD cam first and then transferred to hard drives?

Any help or guidance you all could offer would be a huge help!

Thanks,

Kenneth

How is the project going to be finished? Film, video? How much footage. If you want to go back to the negative for finish or want to leave that door open so you can go back to the negative, then will need the keycode. Some transfer houses can transfer to hard drive with the keycode, others can not. So what most people do is they tk to tape and then dump that to hard drive. This adds costs because it adds time. But it adds the security of having a tape back up. It also adds the cost of having to rent a deck. I personally wouldn't bother with HDcam, it is highly compressed, has 3:1:1 8bit color. Other flavors of HD such as D5 or HDcam SR look much better and you can do much more in terms of color correction from them than you could from HDcam. My advice would be to have it all your footage transfered to HD D5 or SR, dump that to hard drive. Make offlline clips, ProRes might be too much for a laptop, try plain old dv/dvcpro codec, works like a charm. Do your editorial, then conform with final cut. Yes working with the high res HD files take a pretty swank computer, but it can be done. How much footage will you have? Cost of storage is cheap, you can have loads of it for a lot less than five days in a post house. True drive crash, but you can triple or quadruple your back up for much less than even a one day rental of a deck.

ken brown · May 13, 2008

10-bit Quicktime 4:4:4 (or 4:2:2) uncompressed files are HUGE and will put ANY machine through its paces. If you are using FCP 6, Pro Res 422 is pretty darn good and quite lighter in file size than the uncompressed variant. Some people hate it, but I think it looks quite good.

It depends on the footage and project. If you are ever going back out to film, 4:4:4 uncompressed is the way to go. If you are finishing on HD, Pro Res 422 may be the better way.

Unless you go to HDCAM SR (4:4:4), HDCAM (4:2:2) or D5 (up to 4:4:4), it is better to go straight to hard drive. FYI, Digibeta is NOT in the ball park as any of the above formats, being NTSC not HD.

Where are you sending the footage to be scanned?

So if i dont want to kill my computer i should go the pro res 422 route? is 422 similar to DVCPro HD? what would straight quicktimes to drive look like for FCP? i will bring this footage into shake, so better resolution is ideal, although i know by experience that 1920x1080 makes her choke a bit when processing. what type of resolution will 422 give me? i think the final form of it will be HD. I dont ever want to have to deal with a film blow-up, unless someone else is paying for it.

photokem is my first choice to get it scanned. VPT in Dallas may be the best choice for me however, seeing as i am in Austin. I found BonoLabs by looking around on this site and they look pretty ideal, although i do not know of anyone who has transferred things there. thanks for your help and please feel free to offer any more advice! it is greatly appreciated!!!!

ken brown · May 13, 2008

How is the project going to be finished? Film, video? How much footage. If you want to go back to the negative for finish or want to leave that door open so you can go back to the negative, then will need the keycode. Some transfer houses can transfer to hard drive with the keycode, others can not. So what most people do is they tk to tape and then dump that to hard drive. This adds costs because it adds time. But it adds the security of having a tape back up. It also adds the cost of having to rent a deck. I personally wouldn't bother with HDcam, it is highly compressed, has 3:1:1 8bit color. Other flavors of HD such as D5 or HDcam SR look much better and you can do much more in terms of color correction from them than you could from HDcam. My advice would be to have it all your footage transfered to HD D5 or SR, dump that to hard drive. Make offlline clips, ProRes might be too much for a laptop, try plain old dv/dvcpro codec, works like a charm. Do your editorial, then conform with final cut. Yes working with the high res HD files take a pretty swank computer, but it can be done. How much footage will you have? Cost of storage is cheap, you can have loads of it for a lot less than five days in a post house. True drive crash, but you can triple or quadruple your back up for much less than even a one day rental of a deck.

- The project will be finished either HD or on DVD.

- I am only shooting 4 rolls worth, 400ft. Although over the summer i will be shooting a feature and will shoot about 35 rolls (14,000ft), so if you have any suggestions for that please let me know.

- Ive thought about transferring to tape first as a precaution, but i just dont know if my budget will allow for the extra costs. i agree it would be more cost effective to just back up the drive once or even twice (seeing as how terabyte can be found for $350 now). i dopnt know too much about doing it offline, ill have to look more into how i can do that. it may be the best route from the sounds of it.

- let me see if i understand the idea of an offline eidt though: i edit at a much lower resolution and then the EDL is exported to FCP and it conforms those cuts to the HD footage? Kind of like making a 1/2 proxy, if you're familiar with Shake...?

- thank you for the HDCam warning, i was considering it, but now know that if i do put it to tape, HDcam is out!

Saul Rodgar · May 14, 2008

- thank you for the HDCam warning, i was considering it, but now know that if i do put it to tape, HDcam is out!

You have to be careful. HDCAM will be perfectly fine if you are not going out to film. I know Chris Burke says that he wouldn't bother with HDCAM, but that is his personal opinion and he didn't know what format you are finishing on. HDCAM is perfectly acceptable for COUNTLESS film commercials, features, TV shows and music videos that end up on HD/ SD only. If the DP and telecine colorist are worth their salt, HDCAM footage can be virtually indistinguishable from SR footage to the naked (particularly if untrained) eye. I would be willing to bet on that.

Anyway, transfering to SR is going to cost a pretty penny. And if you are finishing on any compressed HD format such as DVCPRO HD or HDV (or worse, SD DVD) it could be money badly spent. I would say, better make sure that a good telecine operator does a good job with your footage and that should be money better spent than putting it on SR, unless you are doing a film out.

Just my opinion.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Saul Rodgar

Saul Rodgar · May 14, 2008

So if i dont want to kill my computer i should go the pro res 422 route? is 422 similar to DVCPro HD? what would straight quicktimes to drive look like for FCP? i will bring this footage into shake, so better resolution is ideal, although i know by experience that 1920x1080 makes her choke a bit when processing. what type of resolution will 422 give me? i think the final form of it will be HD. I dont ever want to have to deal with a film blow-up, unless someone else is paying for it.

photokem is my first choice to get it scanned. VPT in Dallas may be the best choice for me however, seeing as i am in Austin. I found BonoLabs by looking around on this site and they look pretty ideal, although i do not know of anyone who has transferred things there. thanks for your help and please feel free to offer any more advice! it is greatly appreciated!!!!

Look at this:

http://www.cinematography.net/digitk/digitk.htm

Do a test if you will, don't just transfer all your footage at once. Comparing as our friend above did may be the best thing to do.

I use Spy Post and they are great, but they only have HDCAM.

And yes you can get Pro Res 422 at 1080 24p, which looks as good or better than DVCPRO HD 1080 24p, but your computer will be happier with it as it is not as hefty file size wise.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Saul Rodgar

timHealy · May 14, 2008

Just for clarification aren't there two types of Pro Res? Pro Res 422 and Pro Res 422 HD. I thought I understood them to be different but I haven't used the format yet. Maybe I am mistaken.

Tim

Saul Rodgar · May 15, 2008

Just for clarification aren't there two types of Pro Res? Pro Res 422 and Pro Res 422 HD. I thought I understood them to be different but I haven't used the format yet. Maybe I am mistaken.

Tim

Yes, actually there is Pro Res 422 HQ (High Quality) and Pro Res 422 which are 10 bit 4:2:2 HD formats. And there is also just Pro Res 422 which is 8-bit or 10-bit 4:2:2 SD.

I was refering to the HD version. It is confusing because they call it Pro Res 422 whether you use it as HD or SD.

The entire specs can be downloaded by cutting and pasting this on the web browser address bar:

images.apple.com/finalcutstudio/resources/white_papers/L342568A_ProRes_WP.pdf

ken brown · May 30, 2008

so all these routes are essentially a D.I.? does anyone know where i can find a price sheet comparing 2800ft of super 16mm to

Pro Res 422 which are 10 bit 4:2:2 HD formats

Pro Res 422 which is 8-bit or 10-bit 4:2:2 SD

HDCAM SR (4:4:4)

HDCAM (4:2:2)

or D5 (up to 4:4:4)

Michael Most · June 1, 2008

or D5 (up to 4:4:4)

There is no such thing as 4:4:4 D5. D5 is a 4:2:2 format. The only current videotape format that supports 4:4:4 recording and playback is HDCam SR (which can do 4:2:2 as well, and is most often used in that mode). Also, DVCPro HD files are more compact than either flavor of ProRes. As an example, an hour or DVCPro HD at 1080/24p will require a bit under 40GB. An hour of Pro Res 422 at the same size and frame rate will require almost 50GB.

Saul's comments regarding the viability of HDCam and the "proper" circumstances for using SR are right on the money. Old wives tales and slavish adherence to numbers aside, nearly every sitcom -and a number of dramas as well - that you see on the air today are recorded on HDCam. This would include dramas such as Gossip Girl, Reaper, Dexter, The Tudors, The L Word, Jericho, Moonlight, and a number of others.

One other thing to beware of is that if you ask a facility for files only, it is your responsibility to back up those files. The facility is not responsible for keeping multiple copies on either a disk or a backup system unless you're requesting and paying for that. If you get a videotape as well, that media becomes your backup in case of file corruption or disk crashes. Just a thought.

Chris Burke · June 4, 2008

so all these routes are essentially a D.I.? does anyone know where i can find a price sheet comparing 2800ft of super 16mm to

Pro Res 422 which are 10 bit 4:2:2 HD formats

Pro Res 422 which is 8-bit or 10-bit 4:2:2 SD

HDCAM SR (4:4:4)

HDCAM (4:2:2)

or D5 (up to 4:4:4)

If you are going for a HD only finish, then yes HDCam will be more than adequate. I would definitely get the keycode and flex files along with it so you can always go back to the negative if need be.

But given the fact that you will be transferring such a small amount of film 400' (is that correct?) then by all means go for the highest quality you can. You can get it to HDCAM SR or any other higher end format, have the lab dump it to hard drive and you will have all your bases covered. Again for such a small amount of footage......why not?