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Master for DVX-100 24p


J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR

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I'm planning on shooting a documentary in 24p with the DVX100. I would like to wind up with a HDCAM master, anyone had any experience with up-rezing with this camera? I assume it would be better to shoot in the 24p advanced mode when doing this because of the whole "C" frame thing. But if I also shot some portions of this docco on 16mm and it will certainly contain film elements from the 50's and 60's (all formats I imagine) then transfered to HD would it be better to use normal 24p mode to match the effects of pull down in the film elements?

 

What is the best way to get to 16x9 shooting with this camera? Lens adapter? Post? or using a DVX-100A in 16x9 mode (not sure if the specified rental house will have one when production starts)?

 

Also what is the best standard definition 16x9 format master if we ultimately can't afford HD?

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I've seen some DVX100 footage uprezzed (I like to say "upfuzzed" :lol: ) and I was surprised at how good it did look. Best to use the 24pa mode to get the cleanest footage. I would handle the 16mm seperately, transferring that directly to HDCam and making a downconvert to SD for your initial edit, then after uprezzing the DV footage I'd spend a short time in an HD edit room to insert the original 16mm HDCam transfer footage.

 

People are divided about using the 16:9 adapter or not. I don't find it is the sharpest piece of glass in the world, which limits your lens choices (don't zoom in too much). You may be better off just cropping the frame in post. Best is to do a test to decide for yourself.

 

The Panasonic SDX900 is an SD camera that has the 24p function and is almost the same quality as DigiBeta. It is a native 16:9 2/3" camera that records to DVCPro50 with 3:1:1 compression and 4:2:2 color sampling. Panasonic and Apple worked together so that you can directly import this material to FCP4 via Firewire with no signal loss or recompression, and then export it back out equally well. Doing this exceeds the quality of any other format without adding a very expensive online edit from the original tapes. It is leaps and bounds better than shooting on the DVX100 and is the best way to go short of shooting HD. I personally consider the SDX900 the best SD camera available today, even if it didn't have 24p.

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>>I've seen some DVX100 footage uprezzed (I like to say "upfuzzed" :lol: ) and I was surprised at how good it did look.

 

I would rather not uprez to HD but it could be a requirement of distribution. Can you cite any specific programs completed this way with the DVX-100.

 

>>The Panasonic SDX900 is an SD camera that has the 24p function and is almost the same quality as DigiBeta. It is a native 16:9 2/3" camera that records to DVCPro50 with 3:1:1 compression and 4:2:2 color sampling.

 

This is the camera I would like to use but it is out of my budget range. :(

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The Panasonic SDX900 is an SD camera that has the 24p function and is almost the same quality as DigiBeta.  It is a native 16:9 2/3" camera that records to DVCPro50 with 3:1:1 compression and 4:2:2 color sampling.  Panasonic and Apple worked together so that you can directly import this material to FCP4 via Firewire with no signal loss or recompression, and then export it back out equally well.

 

 

But you need to rent a deck because the SDX900 doesn't have firewire out. So remember to factor that expense.

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But you need to rent a deck because the SDX900 doesn't have firewire out. So remember to factor that expense.

It sure does have Firewire out! It may be an option on the camera instead of a standard feature, in which case I don't blame rental companies who don't get that option because they don't want renters wearing down the heads on their cameras by using them as decks. But a Firewire port is certainly available on the SDX900. I know at least one person who uses his camera to download directly into FCP4 and when he completes a project he takes a portable hard drive to a facility that dumps it onto whatever format he needs. The limit of using the camera as a record deck is that it can only hold 33 minute tapes when running DVCPro50.

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Thanks Mitch,

 

That is news to me since a primary reason I didn't rent that camera, as opposed to the much cheaper DVx-100, was that the one in the facility I was renting from DID NOT have fire wire out. I didn't know it was optional. Interesting...

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When I got one that worked I liked it a lot. I went through two that had clogged heads before I found a reliable one. From that shoot I've got three or four gigs.

 

I think it's a good step forward from the Sony PD-150 and Canon XL1s. The menus are a little clearer to me, I like the audio, I like the 24P modes, I love the gamma, detail, black level adjustments, decent viewfinder, focus is a little odd but I dealt with it, amazing shadow detail in certain setups.

 

I've used it a few times now and am getting used to it.

 

Hopefully I shoot more film this year...

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Thanks for the help Bill, I have a few more questions though and it looks like I'll be getting to test one late next week.

 

How did you go about getting your exposure right, meaning how were you sure about your creative exposure judgements and lighting? Did you use some kind of monitor, work from the autoexposure setting or use a light meter? What is the approximate ASA of the camera?

 

Did you use one of the follow focus rigs available and could you focus well enough with the viewfinder or screen?

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I use a Sony field monitor, 8045Q. I send color bars to the monitor and make adjustments using the Blue Only button, standard operating procedure.

 

As far as ASA, I really just go in and measure footcandles, keeping the exposure latitude around 5 stops if I can, using whatever means necessary, always favoring the low end.

 

Re: focus, I know that none of these projects so far are for print, so I've been judging via the viewfinder or had someone pull off the monitor. I haven't really gone into the focus menu and had a focus puller adapt himself to the scale.

 

In a DAY INT. I like to knock down windows w/ LEE 208: Full CTO+ND.6 gel.

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Hey Bill,

 

just a few more questions. I'm getting the DVX100 Thursday for a test. I got the 8044Q 9" monitor just because it will be easier to tote around. Might still go for the 13 during production.

 

Keeping in mind that I intend to upconvert to HD and there might be a possible film out.

 

What do you know about setting V_Detail Freq. in Cinelike set to THIN while using in-camera crop to 16:9? I understand that this will maintain more resolution for HD upconvert at the expense of more moire in SD output?

 

Could I then change detail in Scene File to -1 to obviate this? Or would I wind up with what I started with?

 

How did you set your master pedestal?

 

I'm thinking about using Detail 0 and Master Pedestal -1.

 

As far as setting up the monitor is it ok to use the interlace colorbars provided by the camera (it's not an A). Then switch to Progressive?

 

Finally did you use Zebra to get exposure? Did you use 100 and stop down to eliminate hotspots? Or use 80 and stop down to eliminate hotspots on skintone?

 

Basic questions I know but I skipped video 101, to takefilm 101.

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just a few more questions. I'm getting the DVX100 Thursday for a test. I got the 8044Q 9" monitor just because it will be easier to tote around. Might still go for the 13 during production.

 

 

The 8" (not 9") will likely be fine. A 13" monitor can really be a pain.

 

 

What do you know about setting V_Detail Freq. in Cinelike set to THIN while using in-camera crop to 16:9? I understand that this will maintain more resolution for HD upconvert at the expense of more moire in SD output?

 

This was recently discussed on the Cinematography Mailing List. If I recall properly the THICK setting was suggested as still being better for various reasons. You may want to check for the discussion at cinematography.net.

 

 

 

I'm thinking about using Detail 0 and Master Pedestal -1.

 

I would suggest Detail set all the way down. I believe the bottom of the range is -7. This is essentially Detail Off.

 

 

As far as setting up the monitor is it ok to use the interlace colorbars provided by the camera (it's not an A). Then switch to Progressive?

 

Yes, the colorimetry remains the same.

 

 

Finally did you use Zebra to get exposure? Did you use 100 and stop down to eliminate hotspots? Or use 80 and stop down to eliminate hotspots on skintone?

 

 

Depending on the style of shoot I change between 80 and 100. I would suggest 100 to protect the highlights.

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"...just a few more questions.

 

Keeping in mind that I intend to upconvert to HD and there might be a possible

film out."

 

I never intended on doing a film out with this camera myself so my experience is limited to the small screen.

 

Re: Detail. For my stuff, I went -6 on detail. I saved all my settings into a user file so I could switch to bars, come back to 24P mode and retain my settings.

 

"Finally did you use Zebra to get exposure? Did you use 100 and stop down to

eliminate hotspots? Or use 80 and stop down to eliminate hotspots on

skintone?"

 

I went with 80, I think it's part of my ENG background that wants to watch skintones. I don't like to burn anything out, but if it's not for broadcast I'm not quite as concerned. But I watch for over-exposure on the monitor. The whole scene is set up and looked at on the monitor before shooting.

 

To me, those hotspots are one of the signals that it was shot on video.

 

"Basic questions I know but I skipped video 101, to takefilm 101."

Same boat.

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Thanks guys,

 

That detail thing might have tripped me up. I assumed if you went below 0 you were going below what is considered normal detail. I didn't realize it meant OFF. Anyway I'm getting an early pickup so I'll have all evening to play with it at home before shooting Thursday. If I save a scene file will it stay in memory after I remove power? Looks like my test day is going to be a production day. Typical, you have to use it if ya' got it. I guess I'm going to have to roll 16mm at the same time incase I don't like (or I screw up) the DVX-100 footage. :unsure:

 

I'm about halfway through reading the manual now, which I find hard to learn anything from because I don't the camera here.

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On a lot of cameras, "0" is the medium-level setting, not the lowest setting.

 

For example, on the Sony F900 HDCAM, Detail can be set from -99 to +99, "0" would be considered rather high - most people, if they use Detail at all, set it to -60 or so.

 

Also, anything to be transferred to film should have really low levels of Detail, if not have it shut off completely. Because the edge enhancement artifacts (those black and white edges around objects) become pretty obvious and obnoxious on the big screen.

 

So "0" on the DVX100 would generally be considered too heavy for material to be transferred to film. -4 to -7 would be more appropriate.

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Bill or Mitch or somebody who might see this before mid-day Thursday US.

 

I got the DVX-100 package today brought it home to do some tests and it's an awesome camera.

 

Question about my monitor though. Does the Sony 844Q run at 0 or 7.5 IRE? Is it switchable? I don't seem to be able to find a switch or anything.

 

Does it really matter that much for assessing exposure? It only looked slightly different when I switched the camera to 7.5.

 

I haven't aligned a monitor with color bars in a number of years. I went though the process and when I turn on the blue gun only it seems I can get the tone of the bars to match but there is a big wacky line between the long and short bars and the short ones seem offset a little. I don't remember it looking that junky last time I did it. (we're talking 10 years here). What gives?

 

The monitor also appears to shake verticaly a small amount and it has what looks like a 1 pixel wide dark strip theough its lower third. Bad monitor?

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Bill or Mitch or somebody who might see this before mid-day Thursday US.

 

I got the DVX-100 package today brought it home to do some tests and it's an awesome camera.

 

 

 

Does it really matter that much for assessing exposure? It only looked slightly different when I switched the camera to 7.5.

"Question about my monitor though. Does the Sony 844Q run at 0 or 7.5 IRE? Is it switchable? I don't seem to be able to find a switch or anything."

 

Leave your camera at 0 ire. It will automatically add "setup" to the composite out signal, which is what you are watching on your monitor.

 

"I haven't aligned a monitor with color bars in a number of years. I went though the process and when I turn on the blue gun only it seems I can get the tone of the bars to match but there is a big wacky line between the long and short bars and the short ones seem offset a little. I don't remember it looking that junky last time I did it. (we're talking 10 years here). What gives?"

 

The big line is probably the secondary colors and you can just ignore it. As long as you get the others to match out. You can always go to videouniversity.com to refresh yourself on how to set up the monitor to be safe.

 

"The monitor also appears to shake verticaly a small amount and it has what looks like a 1 pixel wide dark strip theough its lower third. Bad monitor?"

 

I guess. Wouldn't worry about it. Flip out the LCD screen on the camera and see if the problem is there as well. If it is then it's a camera issue; if not then it's the monitor. Probably the monitor.

 

Hope this helps. I like the look the camera gives fleshtones and colors when I underexpose a little. By that I mean let the auto exposure tell me what it likes and then click it down a little. Try it out, it can make a very pleasing image for such a little bugger.

 

Mitch

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Thanks Mitch,

 

I went to videouniversity.com and lined up the monitor again and this time it looked a hell of a lot better! The skin tones were looking reddish but now there spot on.

 

I noticed that the darkened pixel line is exactly at the point where the sub-bars touch the long bars. This is where the trashy looking line is and I guess it's just burned in from all the use.

 

The verticle vibration is only in the monitor but it's not really an issue. You don't really see it unless your right on top of it.

 

About setting the white patch in the color bars. I'm not sure I ever really understood what the "bloom" looks like. How do you know when this is set right?

 

Finally I've decided to run with -7 detail but I'm still not sure where pedestal should be. What will give the widest range of manipulation in post? 0 or - something?

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Thanks Mitch,

 

I went to videouniversity.com and lined up the monitor again and this time it looked a hell of a lot better! The skin tones were looking reddish but now there spot on.

 

I noticed that the darkened pixel line is exactly at the point where the sub-bars touch the long bars. This is where the trashy looking line is and I guess it's just burned in from all the use.

 

The verticle vibration is only in the monitor but it's not really an issue. You don't really see it unless your right on top of it.

"About setting the white patch in the color bars. I'm not sure I ever really understood what the "bloom" looks like. How do you know when this is set right?"

 

It's like porn -- you'll know it when you see it. :lol:

 

The white will get so bright that it will "shine" into the areas surrounding it, sometimes even causing a curving of the image. So you want to get the white up there and then pull back on it until the "bloom" goes away.

 

"Finally I've decided to run with -7 detail but I'm still not sure where pedestal should be. What will give the widest range of manipulation in post? 0 or - something?"

 

I'm guessing that 0 will give you the most manipulation range, but this is a tricky one because it's really a question of taste. Of course you can always raise the black level or shift contrast in post. I generally lower the pedestal some, not to the point of completely flattening out the image but to get a little more range in the image. And if you do an eventual film out this process always seems to dramatically raise the contrast, so lower ped. is probably better.

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But you need to rent a deck because the SDX900 doesn't have firewire out. So remember to factor that expense.

It sure does have Firewire out! It may be an option on the camera instead of a standard feature, in which case I don't blame rental companies who don't get that option because they don't want renters wearing down the heads on their cameras by using them as decks. But a Firewire port is certainly available on the SDX900. I know at least one person who uses his camera to download directly into FCP4 and when he completes a project he takes a portable hard drive to a facility that dumps it onto whatever format he needs. The limit of using the camera as a record deck is that it can only hold 33 minute tapes when running DVCPro50.

I was just invited to a seminar on the SDX-900 at a rental facility.

For the hell of it I asked the rental mgr. if the SDX-900 has Firewire out, and if it is an optional accessory.

 

I was told it does not have fire wire out, nor is it an accessory. So who knows, I'll ask the Panasonic rep. tonight to see if I can get a definative answer since there seems to be some confusion.

 

Anything else I can ask for anyone here?

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Thanks Mitch,

 

I went to videouniversity.com and lined up the monitor again and this time it looked a hell of a lot better!  The skin tones were looking reddish but now there spot on.

 

I noticed that the darkened pixel line is exactly at the point where the sub-bars touch the long bars.  This is where the trashy looking line is and I guess it's just burned in from all the use.

 

The verticle vibration is only in the monitor but it's not really an issue.  You don't really see it unless your right on top of it.

"About setting the white patch in the color bars. I'm not sure I ever really understood what the "bloom" looks like. How do you know when this is set right?"

 

It's like porn -- you'll know it when you see it. :lol:

 

The white will get so bright that it will "shine" into the areas surrounding it, sometimes even causing a curving of the image. So you want to get the white up there and then pull back on it until the "bloom" goes away.

 

"Finally I've decided to run with -7 detail but I'm still not sure where pedestal should be. What will give the widest range of manipulation in post? 0 or - something?"

 

I'm guessing that 0 will give you the most manipulation range, but this is a tricky one because it's really a question of taste. Of course you can always raise the black level or shift contrast in post. I generally lower the pedestal some, not to the point of completely flattening out the image but to get a little more range in the image. And if you do an eventual film out this process always seems to dramatically raise the contrast, so lower ped. is probably better.

Sorry for not being timely in my response, we've been swamped with awards season here, plus I was wrapping a short film.

 

My opinion re: 0 or 7.5 IRE is that I have more shadow detail if I set the camera to 7.5, it will be legal for broadcast and I can always make it denser in post.

 

And to my eye the softer curve at 7.5 looks less video like to me.

 

If the monitor isn't maintaining vertical hold you may have synching issues. I would try another monitor, if the problem persists it may be generating from camera and I would swap the camera out. Of course this is a week after you posted the issue so tell us how it came out.

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Anything else I can ask for anyone here?

Ask Jan Crittenden what Panasonic is going to pay me for being such a cheerleader for their product. Then smile and tell her it's a joke.

 

Jan is the one who first told me about the option. And she's Product Manager for the camera.

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Hi,

 

Don't believe a word they say! No, seriously, I tried for ages to find out if the Sony DSR-45 DVCAM deck will do E to E component to firewire. I got varying answers, and was eventually told by Sony that it won't. Then I got to play with one.

 

It will.

 

Phil

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