non-union on a union job

Brett B · November 11, 2004

I wanted to know if there was any way a non-union ac or camera operator could work on a union film. Thanks.

Kevin Zanit · November 11, 2004

Yes you can. It is a little tricky as far as the rules go (especially for actors).

But as crew you can work a union show if you are non-union, this will work towards your days needed to be in the union.

A very common scenario is working a non-union show and at some point it "turns". Meaning it becomes union. In most cases the days you worked on the show when it was non-union are retroactive, thus those days work towards the needed days to join.

Kevin Zanit

Matt Pacini · November 11, 2004

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the producer takes a "hit" in the way of having to pay a fee to the union for hiring non-union workers.

So yeah, you can technically work on a union film & be non-union, but they're not very likely to hire you in the first place, right?

Matt Pacini

Phil Rhodes · November 11, 2004

God, it really is the mob, isn't it!

Jeff Tanner · November 12, 2004

God, it really is the mob, isn't it!

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Phil,

We've been over this before. It's obvious that you have some deep personal problem with unions...okay already, we get it.

However, millions of people in THIS country (USA) benefit greatly from their affiliations with unions. And yes, even motion picture unions. Making it difficult to join a union is a benefit not a hindrance. While I was a member of a local Studio Mechanics union I was glad that it was tough to join because it kept every Tom, Dick and Harry from joining my union on a whim which in turn keeps the enrollment full of QUALIFIED people. I did my part to get accepted to the union and so can anyone else.

And to answer the original question; yes you can work on union shows without being a union member. There are about a dozen features in production or pre-production in New Orleans and they are all union shows but I know many people working on them, in various positions, that are not members of a union. Now in Los Angeles they might be a bit more strict about hiring only union members but that would simply be because there are so many members and the unions have to look out for their own. It's really a business decision more than a "mob" mentality.

Jeff Tanner

Phil Rhodes · November 13, 2004

Hi,

My personal problem with unions is not to do with their hiring qualified people; it's that the rules are generally arbitrary enough that it simply becomes another way of preventing qualified people who aren't one of the right crowd becoming involved. The old adage - you have to know someone. Bah. Drivel.

Phil

Michael Nash · November 13, 2004

I'm non-union and I recently worked as camera operator on a union music video. The DP explained to me that the producers simply had to pay into pension and welfare on my behalf as though as I was union member. Naturally that payment doesn't benefit me directly, and I'm not sure exactly where the money goes!

But in this case all it took was for the director and DP to request me (they asked me on in the first place), and the producers agreed to it.

Adam Frisch FSF · November 13, 2004

I have a good DP friend who won the visa lottery and is now quite busy in LA. He told me he

would probably join the union at some point in the future. My question is this: can I work as DP on a commercial or music video in LA withou being in the union? Obviously he can. If yes, then why can't I work on a feature film in LA - isn't filming filming? And is it still a 100 days on american productions to join?

It's all so unclear. :rolleyes:

David Mullen ASC · November 13, 2004

I managed to shoot 25 features or so in the past decade before I joined the union, most shot in Los Angeles. I just shot a 1-mil non-union feature in Austin, TX. Last year, I shot a $700,000 or so non-union feature in Los Angeles. But I'm happier shooting union features -- better pay, better hours generally, overtime, and benefits.

There is a lot of non-union feature production in Los Angeles. But it will probably be under 3-mil in budget. It's that 1 to 3-mil budget range that the unions start taking notice. I joined when it looked like I'd start getting work at that budget range, so it was never a case of me losing work for not being in the union because I never was up for those jobs, and by the time I was, I had joined already. So it was pretty painless.

Yes, the current rule for joining Local 600 IATSE is proving 100 days of paid work in the U.S. or its territories, counted over a three year period, for work in the specific job area you want to join under, i.e. camera assisting work doesn't count if you are joining under the Director of Photography classification.

Commercial and music video shoots are similar in Los Angeles -- there is a mix of union and non-union production depending on the budget and whether the production company has signed a deal with the union. I suppose it's possible that some big commercial production company, for example, only does union productions but more than likely, they have an off-shoot company to handle non-union jobs. Sometimes you find two companies, one doing union work and one non-union, are the same company with two different names.

Rob Belics · November 13, 2004

because it kept every Tom, Dick and Harry from joining my union on a whim which in turn keeps the enrollment full of QUALIFIED people.

That's a very good point and well worth remembering. Especially for me because I, too, had a big gripe against unions for a long time but that was due to a bad experience with my local ibew when I was in television.

They didn't protect me in three separate cases but I was the one that got in trouble for it and eventually got the boot. In one case I hadn't gotten paid in three months for example. When I refused to work for that station, that was what got me the boot (believe it or not).

Other fellow members were on my side but were powerless to do anything. That was in the day when a director I know got called on the carpet for moving a monitor off a table so he could sit down.

Eric Steelberg ASC · November 13, 2004

For videos and commercials it depends on the production company and it's producers. Videos tend to less strict especially since they've gone union relatively recently.

Commercials I do are pretty strict. I've tried to hire non-union crew but been told I can't. However, I've shot probably 30 union commercials in the last 4 years and have yet to join the union. They are supposed tor make a non-union DP join the commercial roster after 30 days, but somehow I've not been called. I won't join until I have to for the same reasons David mentioned above.

I have just booked a feature just under $3mil but it is being shot outside the US so it doesn't look like we will be forced to 'organize.'

Jayson Crothers · November 14, 2004

Eric, congrats on the feature! Care to give us a few details?

Brad Grimmett · November 14, 2004

I'm non-union and I recently worked as camera operator on a union music video. The DP explained to me that the producers simply had to pay into pension and welfare on my behalf as though as I was union member. Naturally that payment doesn't benefit me directly, and I'm not sure exactly where the money goes!

But in this case all it took was for the director and DP to request me (they asked me on in the first place), and the producers agreed to it.

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I used to work as a prop assistant a lot, and I did many union jobs, both in FL and CA. No one ever questioned me about it or gave me any grief. My pension and welfare was paid into an account in my name through the union. After about three years of not doing any prop jobs, and obviously not having any more money paid in for P&W, I was issued a check for the money that was being held in that account for me. Apparently, after not paying in for a certain amount of time they release the money to you. But I doubt that will be the case for you since you're still working within the realm of Local 600. Unless of course you don't do another union job for a while.

I think it's a bit tougher to work on union jobs (without being in the union) in the camera department than it is in the prop department. And it's probably harder still as a grip or electric. But that's just my opinion from what I've seen in the past. It also gets harder depending on the length of the job. You may just slip through the cracks on a commercial or music video, but someone's likely to notice if it's a feature.

Phil Rhodes · November 14, 2004

Hi,

> And is it still a 100 days on american productions to join?

100 days, a pound of flesh and your first-born child.

Phil

Eric Steelberg ASC · November 14, 2004

Eric, congrats on the feature! Care to give us a few details?

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Thanks. I can't talk about it right now but in the upcoming months, sure. We don't shoot till March/April.

shootist · November 28, 2004

According to several laywers I've talked to, if you are requested to work on a union contract job, the union has to offer you membership or give you a pass.

The supreme court of the US has ruled that membership in a union cannot be used as a prerequisite for obtaining employment. They considered it part of your right to free association.

Talk to the NLRB if you are denied employment by a union.

Look up www.nrtw.org

Search Beck vs. CWA & GM vs. UAW. Closed shops are illegal.

If you are in a right to work state then your right to work is absolute. If you are not, then you can be required to pay for the bargaining that was done on your behalf for the contract you would be working under. This is known as the 'core' fee or agency fee. The union is required to break out bargaining costs as a part of dues as a whole. This would apply if you are not interested in joining but wish to work under the contract anyway.

Brad Grimmett · November 28, 2004

If you are in a right to work state then your right to work is absolute. If you are not, then you can be required to pay for the bargaining that was done on your behalf for the contract you would be working under. This is known as the 'core' fee or agency fee. The union is required to break out bargaining costs as a part of dues as a whole. This would apply if you are not interested in joining but wish to work under the contract anyway.

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I've heard about this before, but have never met anyone who actually did it. I would be very interested in hearing from anyone that has. Sounds like it would be a tough road to take...