Sag to vote on strike

Jon Rosenbloom · December 30, 2008

"All non-union shoots are awful and all union shoots are wonderful?"

On a strict yes/no basis, the answer to that question is no. I suppose there are sweet non-union gigs out there, but the best non-union gig will only match what you would get in the union, but without the pension or welfare. Let's get real, if I tear up my union card, on average I'll make maybe half the wage, work three times as hard, work five times as dumb, give up any kind of pension and health, and have no functional ability to enforce the deals I make with my employers.

December 30, 2008

"All non-union shoots are awful and all union shoots are wonderful?"

On a strict yes/no basis, the answer to that question is no. I suppose there are sweet non-union gigs out there, but the best non-union gig will only match what you would get in the union, but without the pension or welfare. Let's get real, if I tear up my union card, on average I'll make maybe half the wage, work three times as hard, work five times as dumb, give up any kind of pension and health, and have no functional ability to enforce the deals I make with my employers.

Oh yes I realize that non-union shoots don't provide health insurance in the US, and other benefits.

But the unions are very exclusive clubs in Hollywood, you can't just "sign up", getting in is a long and arduous process. And many people need non-union shoots in order to survive.

What I can't tolerate is unions trying to "turn" a non-union shoot union. If all of the people on the production are happy with the arrangement what business does the union have of interfering with free enterprise?

I understand totally that if a producer starts out with a union crew and then tries to go non-union half way through that would be a serious issue.

R,

Mike Washlesky · December 30, 2008

Here's a perfect example of how Canada's actors union, ACTRA, "helps" the independent low budget filmmaker. This is a program they call TIP:

http://www.actratoronto.com/TIP/Qualifiy2.htm

Read it over. 90% of indie filmmakers in Canada read this page, burst out laughing, and then begin the process of finding non-union actors.

And ACTRA bosses honestly think they are assisting the independent film industry in Canada. Bizarre!!

To add insult to injury ACTRA has stated that if you don't use them then you're an amateur filmmaker. Except they can't explain how many non-ACTRA films receive distribution all over the globe and many ACTRA shoots end up in the rubbish bin with no distribution at all.

R,

Oh man, that was a funny read..

December 31, 2008

Oh man, that was a funny read..

My post, or ACTRAs TIP program?

R,

Sasha Riu · December 31, 2008

Imho, the problem is not that people are looking for better working conditions and rights, but it's is in the inefficiency and bad foundation of how film/media biz works these days or rather, how stubbornly refuses to adjust and change for the benefit of involved parties including workers who demand better deals (I acctualy started a topic on this very sub forum insipred by this observation on mine; please visit if you didn't already, I think you might contribute a great deal to it).

Animosity of audience and fellow coworkers toward SAG and WGA is completly wrong!

While we all contribute to production within our own fields respectively, please keep in mind that without writers and actors we would't have what and who to light, shoot, build, edit, make-up or cater!!!

Cinematographer who's shooting a movie with Brad Pitt in an interesting story, is getting paid a lot of money just because the audience wants to pay to see Brad Pitt in an interesting story-first! it's only their second wish that a movie needs to be nicely shoot.

Not vice versa.

Unions are digging their own grave for quite some time now. Also because they're acting quite stuborn and ignorant toward realities of production.

Union are having a same problem that college degrees have!

BFA degrees 20 years ago, had some real value when parents were saying to their kids:

You just get your BFA degree and you will not have to worry aboug finding a work.

Overtime, inflation of college degrees happened, more people has them, yet, they were never been less appreciated.

Now, even the MFA degree holder can't fine a job!

Now when Producers have found a way to work around unions, they were left as a some sort of unadjusted reliques from the past and as a consequence you have situation that Walter described:

Union workers work on non-union jobs more than ever!

In a recent past, music producers (MBA graduates mostly;not music producers per se, nor musicians) were warned that it will not hold for much longer, their ultimatum to keep charging 15$ for a CD that really costs around 1$ to be produced and made, and that only less than 5% of profit goes to musicians themselves.

They ignored it and what do we have now?

Music industry as we knew it doesn't even exist, that is record companies are soon to been exint from the food chain!

Brian Eno said that not even he, as a professinal musician, desn't buy CD's any more in the store, so why should the regular audience?!

Madona, RadioHead, Prince, recently made a foundation and showed us a new direction for a future biz model of music industry:

Cooperate with event promoters-not record companies, give away complimentary CD's with a purchase of a performance tickets or spred them on line as a free gift and partv of a promotional package rather than the acctual product.

How will unions react to the fact that almost 50% of the financing of acctual product that they are working on, is spent not on production but on marketing?!

Saul Rodgar · December 31, 2008

Cinematographer who's shooting a movie with Brad Pitt in an interesting story, is getting paid a lot of money just because the audience wants to pay to see Brad Pitt in an interesting story-first! it's only their second wish that a movie needs to be nicely shoot.
Not vice versa.

Most people go watch movies because they want to be entertained not because they want to see an interesting story starring Brad Pit. Hence the big explosions, stunts galore and cookie cutter scripts. It really speaks volumes when a lot of the big budget films are actually classic or foreign film re-makes, or scripts that appeal to the lowest possible common denominator in a wide cross section of audiences. And a lot of people will go see a movie simply because Brad Pitt is in it, not because they care about the story.

As for the rest of your post, you are mixing two different things: recorded music of (live) performances and feature films.

The former is about capturing intended- live musical performances mostly -in other words, people get a (proxy- version) track of musicians performing a tune BECAUSE they cant afford hire the musicians to play it for them at their house, that is why Maddonna says come to see me play live, BTW get a CD.

And films couldn't be farther from that. They are designed to be their own entity, to be watched at a movie house or your living room, but they are not recorded versions of a theatrical performance, say. They contain portions of actors performing parts as they would in a play, but they are infinitely more than that.

Sasha Riu · January 1, 2009

Most people go watch movies because they want to be entertained not because they want to see an interesting story starring Brad Pit. Hence the big explosions, stunts galore and cookie cutter scripts. It really speaks volumes when a lot of the big budget films are actually classic or foreign film re-makes, or scripts that appeal to the lowest possible common denominator in a wide cross section of audiences. And a lot of people will go see a movie simply because Brad Pitt is in it, not because they care about the story.

As for the rest of your post, you are mixing two different things: recorded music of (live) performances and feature films.

The former is about capturing intended- live musical performances mostly -in other words, people get a (proxy- version) track of musicians performing a tune BECAUSE they cant afford hire the musicians to play it for them at their house, that is why Maddonna says come to see me play live, BTW get a CD.

And films couldn't be farther from that. They are designed to be their own entity, to be watched at a movie house or your living room, but they are not recorded versions of a theatrical performance, say. They contain portions of actors performing parts as they would in a play, but they are infinitely more than that.

Is it me who doesn't know how to express my thoughts accuretely or you who are only willing to interpret it the way you want to read it?

:)

My whole point of Brad Pitt example is regarded to filmmaking solely through the prism of biz and work practices:

In a food chain of filmmaking biz, we need actors and writers more than they need us, sort of speak!

Without them we'll be unemployed...

Them, without us?

Well, they will find their way much easier.

So, to be irritated cause they ask more rights and better deals that we ask, is a bit unfair and silly, to my perspective.

And, that's one of the points that other show biz unions dont understand:

For a camera person, your main allies are talents not producers nor studios!

Therefore you better nurture and maintain nice relationship with them, which unions for the most part failed to accomplish.

Don't betray your fellow coworkes.

Their success can only lead to your success when you start asking for better deals and conditions in the future...

Music and Movies are different media and different way to express one self creatively, but again, when it comes to biz practice, filmmakers and musicians are in the pretty much same spot:

Income of both groups in in the hands of others-producers.

Now, we realised that music industry in the last couple of years is completly mishandled by the leaders of the industry - managers, producers, executives.

Music industry is now destroyed because of it.

Like I said, executives in music industry have a golden parachutes so they dont care! They will go to be in a board of directors in the hospital, factory or some other corporate stuff.

Even musicians are much better off than filmmakers, because they will always have live performances as a escape exit.

But filmmakers?

What will filmakers do when their leaders, hollywood studio executives, inform us that they also mishandled the biz and therefore filmamaking as we knew it existed so far in a light of glamour, fun, art, succes, profit and creativity is gone...?

Therefore every "rocking the boat", which SAG is doing right asking for better deal and what WGA did last year, is good for all of us!

Maybe not in a short term, but in a long run - YES!

Saul Rodgar · January 1, 2009

My apologies, but you have completely lost me.

Hunter Hampton · January 1, 2009

sag= gas?

Sasha Riu · January 1, 2009

My apologies, but you have completely lost me.

Yes we did got lost in these northeast storms

:)

In short:

Cinematographers should support SAG and WGA efforts for getting the better deals, because:

-they are our first allies out of all fellow filmmakers in the motion pictures battles

-in the long term, their good deals helps us getting our good deals in future, if not by establishing the standards than by creating the precedents that we can call upon when fighting for our rights

Yes, they are divas and pain in the butt when it comes to dealing with them, yes we might get less work in the next couple of months, yes majority of them our waiters and bartenders but:

-They are STAR infected individuals. At least what you can expect from them is to be spoiled brats. That's why world wants to pay admission tickets to watch them which keeps us employed

-More work under worst conditions is not such a great alternative to less work with decent conditions

-A list actors, all of them were baristas and hosteses at some point of their acting career before they hit big.

Just because they reached their dreams now, does it approves that they coworkers should lost their wings on the premises "they will never make it because they're just a simple bartenders and go-go dancers"?

Mike Washlesky · January 2, 2009

My post, or ACTRAs TIP program?

R,

The TIP program.

Walter Graff · January 4, 2009

As I have mentioned in other posts, I work quite a bit with the auto industry. Since this was a topic of unions and some discussion touched on the car industry, I thought I'd share an email I got recently. It is a comment on the car industry and its unions. I found it clear and to the point. The author has no problem with me sharing this. He owns a company that does work and supplies to the 'big three' so is very familiar with the ills of Detroit.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Employees & Suppliers,

Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis......................As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.

Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.

Troy Clarke

President General Motors North America

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Response from:

Gregory Knox, Pres.

Knox Machinery Company

Franklin, Ohio

Gentlemen:

In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of General Motors North America.

Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah", Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream"? Believe me folks, The dream is over!

This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities?this dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever.

Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states: "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not."

You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management?how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass?so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time?for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics?for putting out too many parts on a shift?and for being too productive

(We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)

Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: "over the last few years ?we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors." What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on? What a joke!

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit .

I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research , surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". "Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day? and the following very important thing would happen?where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up?that is how a free market system works?it does work?if we would only let it work?"

But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us"?Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing?and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening?But, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams?yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it?

Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?... How can that be??? Let's see? Fuel efficient? Listening to customers? Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul?

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs. Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning? Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"? Efficient front and back offices? Non union environment?

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it. Radical concept, huh? Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away." I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied?"we really might not do it in a year?or in four?" Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.

Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks ? That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000? People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits? That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year? We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe?

That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home? Let the market correct itself folks - it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has?and doesn't live beyond its means?and gets back to basics?and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world?and probably turns back to God.

Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news". I hope you take it to heart.

Gregory J. Knox, President

Knox Machinery, Inc.

Franklin, Ohio 45005

Saul Rodgar · January 4, 2009

Wow, there are some undeniably hard hitting truths there, but they apply to the manufacturing industry / union mostly. Service industry unions are different, particularly the film crews. So the analogy doesn't quite work.

I mean what kind of film electrician drags ass so that he or she can work overtime? That person would be fired immediately. I have also never heard of an AC who says to the loader, "look buddy, you are loading too much film on the mags; for the last time, cut it out!!" :lol: If movie crews (including directors, actors and writers) work overtime is because production demands it, so it is fair that they pay accordingly. Etcetera.

It is great to read the what Walter posted, and I thank him. Definitely food for thought. Now lets just move on and work our asses off.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Saul Rodgar

Walter Graff · January 4, 2009

It wasn't meant to be an analogy as much as simply info as a few posts brought up the car industry. The unions involved are the worst role models for unions as a whole. Many of them will be extinct in the upcoming year when the US manufactures file for bankruptcy.