PAL music video

Michael Nash · December 15, 2004

I may be shooting a music video that will have a PAL master, but I'd like to have NTSC material as well for my reel. I'm trying to figure out a shooting and editing workflow that gives me the best quality for both frame rates. I'm trying to avoid doing any standards conversions if I can at all help it.

My inclination is to shoot and edit in 24fps for the most flexibility, and output both PAL and NTSC masters from a 24P timeline. The edit platform will likely be Final Cut Pro (don't know which version). Can FCP output a PAL signal from a 24P timeline? I'd also like to stick with 24fps since we're shooting here in the US with 60 Hz power.

Right now the producers are comparing budgets between 35mm and HDCAM, with their preference for film (the budget is REALLY low). So I'm also trying to map out the transfer and dub formats for both scenarios. My hope is that they can pipe digibeta straight into their system (I don't think they can handle HD), but chances are they're only set up for DVCAM. How hard is it to extract a 24P signal from a tape format that includes a 3:2 pulldown? Anything special I need to tell the transfer or dub house? Is this even the right way to go about it? Thanks.

Laurent Andrieux · December 15, 2004

I may be wrong... but, PAL is 25 fps. If you care about the PAL edition, I would say shoot 25, not 24. If you really need NTSC, well, then why not shoot it 30 fps, as I am wondering if it's not better to take images off a 30 fps to go 25 than the opposite... Just trying to guess...

December 15, 2004

This is a tricky one :-)

I transfer 24fps film to PAL all the time, the one frame difference is not even detectable. But, I'm not using any audio or lip sync on those shots. The audio is what could be a problem.

If PAL is the main objective, then shooting film at 25fps is the most ideal scenario. Then also do a NTSC pass of the same film with 3-2 pull down on it for NTSC. I think that would work, never done it though.

DC

John Sprung · December 15, 2004

I am wondering if it's not better to take images off a 30 fps to go 25 than the opposite... Just trying to guess...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the PAL markets don't buy 30 to 25 conversions. The NTSC markets accept conversions the other way. If music is important, then pitch shift between 24 and 25 is an issue. Since PAL is the main market, the best choice is 25.

-- J.S.

David Mullen ASC · December 16, 2004

Plus you get 100 more lines...

Michael Nash · December 16, 2004

Okay, so dumb question...

Is PAL EXACTLY 50i, or is it 49.something (like NTSC is 29.97)? When shooting 25 fps for PAL, is it recommended to shoot exactly 25fps, or is it a nearby decimal? Again, I might be shooting with the Sony F-900 or 35mm...

Phil Rhodes · December 16, 2004

Hi,

It's exactly 50.

I find it amusing to wander past schools in the US and listen to all the little kiddies learning to count - "twenty-eight, twenty-nine, twenty-nine-point-nine-seven, thirty-one...."

Phil

Rich Steel · December 16, 2004

Nice one Phil.....

December 16, 2004

Oh I get it, Phil is making fun of NTSC. Very funny.

By the way Phil we are having a Bible reading and pro Bush rally at my house this Saturday. Any chance you can make it?

I'll be in London in May on a shoot, I'd be happy to drop by and give you some fundamentalist Christian literature. It's no trouble at all.

DC

David Cox · December 16, 2004

Liking the anglo US relationship building...

... but yes 25FPS. If you shoot at 24, you could do a pitch shift (for your sound) if it was anything other than a music video, but I would not like to be the one to tell the music company that you have been messing with their beloved track - no matter how bad it is :-)

I know this doesn't help you cut your new PAL spot into your reel, but if you take a PAL copy on DVD, I guess your multi-region DVD player will do something meaningful with it?

John Sprung · December 16, 2004

Is PAL EXACTLY 50i, or is it 49.something (like NTSC is 29.97
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PAL is exactly 50.00i, and NTSC I monochrome was exactly 60.00i from its adoption in the summer of 1940 until its replacement by NTSC II color at the end of December in 1953.

The field rate change for NTSC was a last-minute fix for a last-minute "Aw S--t!" discovery. The original NTSC used an audio subcarrier at 4.5 MHz. The panic discovery was that the new color subcarrier was producing beat frequencies against the audio subcarrier, and this was causing visible artifacts. The solution was to move one of the subcarriers by a factor of 1000/1001, which would move the difference frequency out of the problem range. They could have shifted the audio subcarrier, but didn't want to take a chance on some existing sets not working with it. They chose to move the new video subcarrier, which forced them to shift the line and field frequencies to keep the multiples the same. If only we could have gone back to the NTSC II committee through a time warp and told them that in 20 years there would not only be video recording, there'd be 12M time code, of course they would have moved the audio subcarrier. It makes me wonder what we're building into today's new standards that will turn out to be a major pain in the tushies of the future. ;-)

PAL and SECAM, on the other hand, were designed fresh from the ground up, with no compromises imposed by the previous 405 line monochrome system. So they're part of the "point zero zero" world. Only in NTSC and ATSC do we have "point nine something", and in ATSC only because we have to feed NTSC during the transition. There has been some discussion that in the far future when NTSC is clearly dead and really most sincerely dead, we might have a "throw the switch" day and convert everything to "point zero zero".

-- J.S.

December 16, 2004

If your shooting it primarily for pal then i would go with 25fps no question.

Also regarding adjusting audio for 24 to 25, you don't actually pitch-shift it, you time stretch it. Pitch shifting is changing the pitch or tonal frequency while leaving everything else the same, while time stretching is just increasing or decreasing the time.

Also, as a side bar, audio time is recorded in "clicks", one click being 1/100th of a beat per minute. If you change the timing by even a couple of clicks, to someone who is familiar with the track it will feel wrong. Because the visual image in this instance "a music clip" is to support the audio, it is sometimes more desirable to adjust the speed of the clip to suit.

Mike Brennan · December 17, 2004

Set shutter to clearscan, dial in 1/60th and you'll solve the 60HZ issue.

Looks like you have no excuse to shoot the best frame rate in the world:)

Mike Brennan

Michael Nash · December 17, 2004

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I have a few followup questions.

Moving on to post (Final Cut Pro); can FCP edit PAL material as 25 progressive frames, or does it become interlaced? My thinking is that if I can maintain a 25P timeline, there ought to be a way to make that 24P within the computer before output (allowing both PAL and NTSC tape masters).

You're all right of course that if a project is intended to be PAL it makes sense to shoot it at 25 fps. The problem with shooting 25fps here in the US is that you have to find a transfer and/or dub house with PAL decks in whatever format you need (or at least a good quality format that you can dub down somewhere else). For example, how many places in LA are set up to do HDCAM 25P out to PAL DVCAM? Can I just walk into a facility that has an HDCAM deck with the producers' "bilingual" DSR-11, plug it in and get a dub? Similarly, if I shoot 35mm how many transfer houses in LA are set up to record PAL digibeta, or even transfer straight to PAL DVCAM? And how many of these places are cheap? :P (We're talkin' LOW budget for this one).

The last low-budget music video I shot for a client associated with these producers became a big mess at the post end. Again destined for PAL release, we shot on PAL video. The client went back to New York to edit where he had "a good deal" with an AVID, only problem it was NTSC. So he paid way too much to have all the footage transferred to NTSC, edited, output to NTSC, and then standards converted to PAL. Ugh! Obviously NOT the way to go, and I'm trying my best to circumvent this kind of disaster.

I'll meet with the producers today and get some more info, but I have a feeling I'll be back here with more questions. ;)