This is the level we're now at

[Scott Fritzshall]

Ironically, I'm actually completely against the current health care reform bill as well, although for completely opposite reasons. I oppose it because it's essentially a gigantic handout to the insurance companies in exchange for them supporting the Democratic party against the Republicans. The Democrats get what they want- a health care reform "victory" in the public eye, as well as for the health insurance industry to stab the GOP in the back by shifting their support towards the Dems. The health insurance and pharmaceutical companies get what they want as well- the government will mandate that everyone in the country pay them. If someone can't afford whatever they decide to charge, they'll still get paid because the government will pay for it via taxed money.

 

Everyone else in the country, well, we're out of luck. We will have a mandate to purchase affordable health insurance from companies who will have no mandate to provide us with affordable health insurance. The new alternative will most likely be the non-profit health co-ops or whatever, which are a compromise from the weak public option, which was a compromise from a strong public option, which was a compromise from a single-payer system. The whole point of the co-ops is to be a pretend alternative that have no ability to compete with the private insurance companies. There is very little in this reform that will actually lower costs. The result is going to be that more and more people will actually lose their employer-provided health care, which means that they will have to purchase their own insurance that they cannot afford, which means that even more slack will have to be picked up by the taxpayers, which means that costs will continue to rise.

 

I oppose any reform which does not include at least a very strong public option. The vast majority of our problems are the result of the profit motive of the health insurance industry. Any plan which has no mechanisms to counter this are doomed to continued failure.

[Brian Dzyak]

I am absolutely against this Bill as are most Americans.

 

 

Well, that's "misinformation" for a number of reasons, most of which there is not just "one" bill. At last count, there were around five separate versions floating around. Second, ONLY Fox "News" claims that "most Americans" are against "the bill" when the facts are quite different. Most citizens of the US actually are FOR Health INSURANCE reform AND Health CARE reform, two separate issues. ONLY Fox "News" and the minority who watch and believe such nonsense support this system which only serves to deny healthcare for those who have already paid for it while enriching a few Insurance Company Execs (and their trophy wives, vacation homes, and sports car maintenance).

 

MOST citizens of the US are currently being screwed by the established "for profit" system, which is the ONLY for-profit system in the developed world which currently spends MORE per capita than any other nation yet delivers LESS than any other nation. The only argument to keep this system is to ward off the "evils of Socialism" which are so bad that they've kept our water safe (EPA), our food safe (FDA), diseases in check (NIH), our transportation system safe (DOT), our kids educated (Dept of Education), our nation safe (Military branches), our Veterans healthier (VA), our Seniors healthy (Social Security and Medicare)....

 

Yeah, Socialism is downright evil so that's why we need to keep the Health Insurance Industry in the hands of the private for-profit sector. <_<

[David Rakoczy]

Well, that's "misinformation" for a number of reasons,

 

Wrong Again Brian

 

 

...at least you are consistent.

[Scott Fritzshall]

Wrong Again Brian

 

 

...at least you are consistent.

It's funny though since no one actually knows what the bill contains, and probably half of the people who oppose it actually believe those absurd "death panels" rumors.

 

What's also pretty funny is there were a bunch of polls from a few years ago that showed that if you asked people whether they supported "universal health care" or "socialized health care," most of them opposed it, but if instead you just described what single-payer health insurance is but didn't give it a name, something like 70% of people actually favored it.

[David Rakoczy]

It's funny though since no one actually knows what the bill contains

 

Exactly... so how can Brian say (even mistakenly) most are for 'it'? :rolleyes:

 

We (do) know 'it' will cost well over 1.3 Trillion.... for what ever 'it' is...... :blink:

 

... and tho no one really knows what is in the Bill(s) and very few Congressmen have actually tried to read any of 'it'... "We gotta hurry and get this thing done now!"...

 

Insanity!

 

Regarding 'Cinematography', I had a great shoot in Orlando a couple days ago and hired David Desio (from this site) as Operator. He did great. Nice Guy!

[Scott Fritzshall]

My understanding is that there are a bunch of hypothetical bills floating around, and that a few groups are trying to synthesize them into something that will eventually be voted on. Whatever ends up coming out is pretty much guaranteed to be absolute garbage, and it's going to end up making things a lot worse.

 

I theoretically agree with you on the issue that it's a pretty big problem that congress doesn't tend to read bills before voting on them, but I think it's really amusing to hear it coming from conservatives given that they seem to be pretty highly in favor of the PATRIOT act, which was an even more sweeping bill that was also like 1000 pages long, which was passed before anyone had read it. It's also pretty amusing that the ones who have actually read any of the current bills seem to wildly (and purposely?) misinterpret things like "allows for voluntary end-of-life counseling" into "mandates death panels."

[David Desio]

Been following this thread for a bit, lots of opinions from both sides...I'll keep mine to myself and just say that I appreciate the kind words David, I had a nice time on your set, everything looked very nice...we now return you to your regularly scheduled debate...

[Brad Grimmett]

Wrong Again Brian

The above article and polls contained within were written and compiled by Rasmussen Reports. The company was started in 1995 by Scott Rasmussen and he is still the publisher. It is interesting to note that Scott Rasmussen was a paid consultant for the 2004 George W. Bush campaign.

While Rasmussen polls are widely used by many of the major news outlets, I think it's important to know who is compiling these numbers. And Rasmussen is widely believed (even by many of the news outlets that use it) to be slanted to the right. We very rarely get un-biased information these days. Most of it is hugely biased. Even when a reporter is un-biased and doing their best to report facts, they have to use a poll compiled by a biased polling company. Man, I sure miss Cronkite.

[David Rakoczy]

The above article and polls contained within were written and compiled by Rasmussen Reports. The company was started in 1995 by Scott Rasmussen and he is still the publisher. It is interesting to note that Scott Rasmussen was a paid consultant for the 2004 George W. Bush campaign.

While Rasmussen polls are widely used by many of the major news outlets, I think it's important to know who is compiling these numbers. And Rasmussen is widely believed (even by many of the news outlets that use it) to be slanted to the right. We very rarely get un-biased information these days. Most of it is hugely biased. Even when a reporter is un-biased and doing their best to report facts, they have to use a poll compiled by a biased polling company. Man, I sure miss Cronkite.

 

 

Give us a break :rolleyes: ... Rasmussen is one of the (if not THE) top rated and trusted Polling Company here in the US. The problem is that (some) of you are so far left that when a man stands in the middle... to you he looks far right.

[Scott Fritzshall]

Rasmussen has been noted as being kind of a "take this with a grain of salt" kind of organization, although to be fair most of the pollsters have been dodgy at one point or another. The thing with polls is that you've really got to check the methodology and the questions they're actually asking, because I've definitely seen some Rasmussen polls that asked incredibly leading questions. This particular poll seems pretty straightforward in its questioning, however, so I can't really find fault with it. And honestly, given the climate of the last few weeks, I don't find the results surprising in the least. There are a whole hell of a lot of people who are really angry about healthcare reform. The problem is that they're angry at things that aren't even part of any of the proposed bills, like "death panels," "rationing," "government takeover of healthcare," "loss of choice of doctors," etc.

[Robin R Probyn]

Rasmussen has been noted as being kind of a "take this with a grain of salt" kind of organization, although to be fair most of the pollsters have been dodgy at one point or another. The thing with polls is that you've really got to check the methodology and the questions they're actually asking, because I've definitely seen some Rasmussen polls that asked incredibly leading questions. This particular poll seems pretty straightforward in its questioning, however, so I can't really find fault with it. And honestly, given the climate of the last few weeks, I don't find the results surprising in the least. There are a whole hell of a lot of people who are really angry about healthcare reform. The problem is that they're angry at things that aren't even part of any of the proposed bills, like "death panels," "rationing," "government takeover of healthcare," "loss of choice of doctors," etc.

 

 

Whats the quote for health care in the US...

 

Scandinavian tax,s ... third world service..

[Scott Fritzshall]

Yeah basically, except that we actually spend more tax money on healthcare than Scandinavia, or anyone else for that matter.

[Brad Grimmett]

Give us a break :rolleyes: ... Rasmussen is one of the (if not THE) top rated and trusted Polling Company here in the US.

I'm aware that Rasmussen is trusted, as I made clear in my previous post. It's just interesting and surprising that a company that is suppossed to be completely un-biased has a CEO/publisher that sometimes works for the GOP/right wing/George Bush. How is that un-biased? If I campaigned for Obama, would you consider ME un-biased?

I wasn't commenting on the particular poll in question, just on the company compiling the poll. And I was stating facts, not coming up with things out of thin air.

The problem is that (some) of you are so far left that when a man stands in the middle... to you he looks far right.

I stand in the middle. To you I look like a bleeding heart lefty pinko liberal I guess. But yes, many of the people who supported and worked with George W. Bush look far right to me, as Bush himself was/is.

There are very few people that are "far left" anymore. The country has gone so far right that even a moderate looks like a socialist to some people.

[Brian Dzyak]

Wrong Again Brian

 

 

...at least you are consistent.

 

 

I'm consistently right. :) I don't expect Conservatives to use real facts as Pravda-like propaganda from places like Fox "News" has been enough to placate them since Reagan.

 

Someone made a cartoon to explain this is simple language that ANYONE can understand, even Conservatives!

 

The Cartoonist erroneously uses the word "Free" in the piece, but he is likely using the smallest, least confusing, words possible for the Conservatives who still don't get it. Otherwise, I couldn't have explained this any better (though I've tried!)

[David Rakoczy]

Brad, my humble apologies... I mistook your motivation. Please forgive me... tho I can't see how you can feel there are very few far left (?)!

 

Brian.. only you could look at that poll and and say "no, I'm right."

[Scott Fritzshall]

Brad, my humble apologies... I mistook your motivation. Please forgive me... tho I can't see how you can feel there are very few far left (?)!

I'm fairly far left, and there are few to no mainstream voices that are anywhere close to my views. The far left barely exists in this country.

[georg lamshöft]

I have friends in the States and I think health care/insurance is one of the most important topics in American politics, therefore I'll just add my 2 cents from the perspective of an "European" once and then will switch back to cinematography-related topics ;-)

 

One thing that is important is efficiency - who much of the money spend for health care is actually used for health care?

That might sound strange, but most of the money that Americans spend for health isn't used for health care at all. It's used for marketing, stock-market speculation, fighting other insurances...

 

The other thing is the difference between being social and being "fair" (getting what you paid for). Insurances are based on the social mindset, you don't get what your paid for at all, instead, all people in the insurance agree to pay a fee and everybody who needs the money that was paid into it, gets it. Insurances in many places are just business and make barely any sense at all, but health is part of everybodies life and it's unpredictable and non-cyclic. Some may need only a few thousand dollards of health care all their life, others may need millions! But all paid the same...

 

Many countries/governments tried out different systems and after many decades there is one thing save to say:

 

Only the universal health care works!

 

There is no competition and the Government controls it. But the system of competition doesn't work in the very special circumstances of health care! Nobody knows when he/she gets sick, people become desperate once they become sick. Private insurance companies love to take money from their customers, it works for the small additional services but not when peoples lives depend on it! Germany has tried to establish a private sector in health care. A few decades later, all the private insurances companies spend billions on marketing and competing to each other (while offering basically all the same), they got well-paid young people who didn't want to pay into the national insurance (because of their high wages they had to pay much more than most of them ever got back). Now, the private insurances crawl back to the government, their customers became old and ill - they don't want them anymore... So it will go back to a non-competitive only national insurance. Why is this good? Because the social system of insurances works best when more people are part of it!

 

A national health care isn't a guarentee for good health care at all. It's the government that runs it, the government you elected! YOU have the responsibility, no market regulates it automatically, you have to regulate it! You make a good or bad health care system out of it!

But don't make it a business anymore, don't let a market regulate that doesn't exist!

Then you will get a more efficient system than today, which shouldn't be too difficult with 8000$/year for health care right now...

[David Rakoczy]

I'm fairly far left, and there are few to no mainstream voices that are anywhere close to my views. The far left barely exists in this country.

 

 

I guess they all moved to Washington! :blink:

[Scott Fritzshall]

For instance...?

[Paul Bruening]

The problem is deeply-rooted. My previous comments about the unfashionability of personal honour notwithstanding, people do this sort of thing because it's almost the only way to operate in such a rarified environment. I don't really think the producers are making that much money in these circumstances either, much as it's fun to demonise them.

 

P

 

I am running into this all around my little slice of the world. I am catching people of all types, lying. It's almost as if they are lying as a matter of course. I don't know where the break point was for me where I noticed that people in even slight positions of responsibility stood out as lying without any conscience. Maybe, I started noticing when the crash set-in. It is so prominent that it sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't imagine people have changed recently. I have been reasonably cynical of my fellow humans' capacity for honesty for most of the latter half of my life. At least, enough to not always be a total sucker. It's just that I see it so clearly lately.

 

Could it be that if we collectively became compulsive and obsessive liars, then there was no mirror for us to see what we'd become?

[Guest]

Whoooo, Eeeeeee! You Americans are having a real hum dinger of a debate over health care now. The scenes on the news of the shouting matches at town halls are quite hilarious to say the least.

 

Then again, as some one who lives in Canada (the country that invented the best health care system in the world), I should point out that the Canadian health insurance system was only enacted after a very bitter struggle that took place in the Province of Saskatchewan in 1962. That's where it all began, the shift from private to public health insurance.

 

The Saskatchewan gov't decided to enact public health insurance and the doctors of Saskatchewan went on strike to protest the plan, they didn't like it one bit. In response the Sask gov't brought in foreign doctor's from the USA, England, and South Africa, and told the Sask doctors to basically, "shove it."

 

Eventually the Sask gov't broke down the doctors and the doctors finally agreed to accept the plan, the rest is history.

 

So national health care wasn't brought into Canada without a fight that's for sure. But it was in 1962 and no one remembers any more. There would not be national health care in Canada if the Sask gov't had not had the fortitude to take on every one that opposed the plan and to see it though.

 

Any health care reform in the USA will require the same approach. Does Obama have what it takes? Only time can answer that question.

 

In the mean time the video on CNN is entertaining to say the least. I especially love the people that start screaming about the...."gov't deciding who will live and who will die." Those folks are hilarious!

 

R,

[David Rakoczy]

Then again, as some one who lives in Canada (the country that invented the best health care system in the world), I should point out that the Canadian health insurance system was only enacted after a very bitter struggle that took place in the Province of Saskatchewan in 1962. That's where it all began, the shift from private to public health insurance.R,

 

Then why are Canadians coming to America for healthcare EVERYDAY? Doesn't your Govn't decide who gets what healthcare and when? Absolutely! Aren't there people waiting in line who finally out of fear of procrastinating come to American for their procedures? Absolutely!

[Guest]

Then why are Canadians coming to America for healthcare EVERYDAY?

 

Obviously this is the type of ridiculous misinformed response I predicted when I made my post, right on cue :lol: Question for you......why are Americans coming to Canada EVERYDAY for healthcare? Because they can't afford care in the USA that's why.

 

Doesn't your Govn't decide who gets what healthcare and when? Absolutely! Aren't there people waiting in line who finally out of fear of procrastinating come to American for their procedures? Absolutely!

 

David, I thought you where an intelligent person, your comments are the comments of ignorance and misinformation. You of all people can do better by doing some research on the web to answer these questions for yourself.

 

I have used the Canadian healthcare system for 35 years, and so have every member of my family. We have zero complaints. The quality of care is world class and there is no need to deal with idiotic insurance companies and mountains of paper work. You hand over your health card and that's it done! Americans really have no idea how good and efficient it is.

 

You need to sit down and do your own home work and not believe the drivel fed to you by the AMA and other right wing extremists in the US.

 

I lived in the USA for five years and used the health care system in your country. The quality of care is good but the paper work is just insane, and I had quote "good coverage" from Blue Cross. Oh and when I was laid off from my job in the USA, I lost my health care, which is exactly what happens to millions of Americans every year.

 

Guess what that can't happen in Canada. Open your eyes David, thousands and thousands of Americans file for bankruptcy every year because they can't pay their health care bills. I have never in my life heard of even a single Canadian that filed for bankruptcy because of health care bills.

 

You just can't win the debate over which system is better, clearly the Canadian model is superior. Read what you fellow Americans post on this board.

 

R,

[Scott Fritzshall]

Richard, why are you failing to mention the death panels? All Canandians must appear before a death panel each time they want to see their doctor or have a medical procedure performed, in order to determine if they're a productive enough citizen deserving of receiving care. If not, they're told that they'll just have to die! I know this is true because both Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have said so, and they also said that anyone who says otherwise is being paid by Obama to spread lies. Why aren't you telling the truth about how no one in Canada is able to receive health care after they turn 65 because they're no longer valuable? The truth must be told!

[Guest]

Scott,

 

Good one :D

 

R,