making a living

[jordan kersten]

I am a 19 years old and I want to become a Cinematographer. I was wondering if any DP's out there can share with me what it's like to make a living as a Cinematographer. Is it very difficult to make a decent living? I really want to be a Cinematographer but I have lived in a house where money is tight so I know I don't want to be unable to support my wife and kids. How are you guys doin with it?? Thanks!

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> I am a 19 years old and I want to become a Cinematographer.

 

Oh dear!

 

 

> Is it very difficult to make a decent living?

 

Yes.

 

> I don't want to be unable to support my wife and kids.

 

Find a different line of work.

 

Phil

[Jonathan Spear]

Hey,

 

I definately agree with Phil.

 

=However=, you could start off learning the basics during any free time you may have. Starting with this website, check out the book and DVD recommendations and read every single post you possibly can.

 

Watch movies, DVD's (special features help) and become a regular at your local theater.

 

Buying a movie camera (digital/film) will definately help, and so will a basic understanding of photography, exposure and lighting. Pick up a 35mm SLR at a garage sale and go experiment. Have fun with it.

 

In this world we live in ( *:rolleyes:*: CLICHE ALERT!!) the only true freedom we really have is self expression through art.

All we need in return is to follow a pretty basic set of rules.

Small price to pay if you ask me.

 

Back in the day, my first guitar teacher told me that once I'm past the "rules" part of learning my instrument (music theory, scales, fingering techniques etc... = exposure, film history, lighting) I can give her a name.

 

In other words, after you learn the basics of photography, cinematography, watched a TON of films, read TONS of books, know film history and, back me up on this guys and gals, EAT SLEEP AND BREATHE FILMMAKING - then you'll probably be at the level of expertise which may actually lead to a comfortable income....perhaps even an Oscar one day.

 

It's totally up to you bro.

 

Good luck.

 

-Jon

 

P.S. = Don't forget, 99% of Hollywood's 'elite' started off as "nobodys".

[David Mullen ASC]

You can't start out with the house and the kids and THEN try and build a career to support all of that. You have to first work on getting the career before you can judge whether you can afford those other luxuries.

 

Because you will spend YEARS if not a decade working at low wages or sometimes for free just to establish yourself and then MAYBE, yes, you will make a decent living. Or maybe you will only make an OK living. Or maybe you will get rich. It's a crap-shoot.

 

This is not a career for the security-minded.

 

You need to keep a low overhead until you reach a point where you know what your wages might start being on a regular basis to then decide whether the house and kids are affordable.

 

Certainly many people work in this industry and do OK, money-wise. Some years are better than others. But there is no guarantee of success and no well-worn path to regular employment so it's a risk.

 

Like any artistic profession, you really should do it because you can't imagine NOT doing it and be willing to risk all to achieve it. Then IF you are successful, you can take stock of your life and figure out what's worth going into long-term debt for.

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

Or if you're like me, it's factually the ONLY thing you can do. I 100% suck at everything else I've ever tried. Usually because mindless repetition soon bores me. That's why I love cinematography/photography, it's always something new. But David is 100% right though, all artistic careers are feast or famine until you get established.

[jordan kersten]

Thank you guys so much for your information! I feel a little more aware of what it takes now. I've been a piano player since I was 9 years old (so I know what it's like to have a life with art) and I have been pretending my eyes were cameras as my mom drove me arond since even before that. I do shoot alot of pictures. I actually have 3 SLR's. Thanks again for all your help guys...I just joined cinematography.com last night and I LOVE IT!!!

 

P.S. What do you mean "Oh, Dear" to a 19 year old cinematographer wanna-be? <_<

[jordan kersten]

Any suggestions on Film Schools??? :huh:

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> What do you mean "Oh, Dear" to a 19 year old cinematographer wanna-be?

 

Because, like the rest of us, you probably aren't going to be able to take our advice to not do it, and it's probably going to cost you a lot of money.

 

Phil

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

I hate to sound like a complete bastard here, but becoming a successful cinematographer is no formal process. Thousands of people, just like you, have an ambition to become big in the film industry. Don't take this the wrong way, because it's a question you should ask yourself, why should you get that position over the thousands of others?

 

(Imao) Personally I believe I deserve a shot at the big time, I think I'm better than the thousands of others out there. Wow.. Doesn?t that sound big headed? But there?s no way your going to get anywhere by saying "Ahh well I'll give it a try".

 

Many film makers put their entire financial state in complete jeopardy, to become successful. I can't remember who it was but one film maker re-mortgaged his house in order to pay for the rest of the movie he was making.

 

Are you willing to do that? Because if you do want to make it big time, those are the kind of sacrifices you have to make.

 

It's a right sod to get into, but with ultimate determination, hey you might get somewhere.

 

Take me for instance. Next year I might *possibly* be shooting a multi-million action film project out in Vietnam, IF, I get the position (which I doubt I will, but heyhoe) I am willing to quit my current education on go on and make it. Kinda putting all my eggs in one basket here, but it's the risk we have to take. Because if the film is a complete failure, and I end up a failure, bugger. No qualifications. Bugger... Looks like a lifetime of work in Chas Norman cameras, retail. Bugger?

 

One thing that seems to put people off is when they see others around their age doing better. I know one kid of my age, and he has done TV shoots e.t.c. I wasn't put off by it, infact I find it drives me even harder. It's probably jealousy, but I am DETERMINED and I PROMISE to everyone here that I'm gonna succeed that kid. All I can say is, tough poop for him. What I'm saying is, don't give a damn about the people around you who might be doing better, it's not about them.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

[jordan kersten]

Thanks everyone for all your advice and sharing your experiences with me. Being in the fine arts my whole life, I have known for sometime that whatever I ended up doing, it would be the same situation: uncertainty. There are bassically three things that would make me happy in life: Being a cinematographer, a recording engineer or a film scorer. In all cases, the money is the same. So I have to say to myself, "Do I want to have a job I hate and get a hefty paycheck every week, or do one of the three things I love and figure out a way to live?" And my answer is definatly do something I love to do. And out of the three things that would make me happy, cinematography is the one I feel I have the best feel for. I dunno...sometimes it sucks being artistic, doesnt it?? :)

 

Hey Phil, can I ask why you became involved in cinematography/film. And do you regret it now?

[Rik Andino]

Any suggestions on Film Schools??? :huh:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It does suck being artistic...

But at least we're still alive

 

Anyways if you're looking for a FILM SCHOOL

Lemme plug my old ALMA MATER

If you're near the East Coast check out CUNY-BROOKLYN COLLEGE

 

They've got an excellent undergraduate program (better than NYU)

It's especially geared towards cinematography,

Sound and the other technical aspect of filmmaking.

Although it lacks on the directing side...

It's got the best undergradute screenwriting program in the USA

 

Best of all you won't have to put up with all the snotty NYU brats

who want to be great directors but can't read a lightmeter to save their arses.

And it cost a third less than NYU (and even less if you get finiacial aid).

 

And yes, I know what you're wondering, the campus has lots of cute girls. ;)

 

 

 

KARMA bums

[jordan kersten]

Can anyone point me in the right direction on how to get onto some sets so I can at least see whats going on and maybe meet some people too? I am not at a real good place to do that now (I live in St. Louis, MO) but where should I go to get this thing started!? All your guy's help is sooooo much appreciated!

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> I am not at a real good place to do that now (I live in St. Louis, MO)

 

Actually, you're in the best possible place in the world to do it, because you're in the US with working papers.

 

> Hey Phil, can I ask why you became involved in cinematography/film.

 

The usual. Obsession with the medium, artistic interest in creating it, inflated view of one's own capabilities.

 

> And do you regret it now?

 

Yes, very much.

 

Phil

[Rob Belics]

If you want to stay in St. Louis check out Webster University. Washington U. also has a film course but not as hands on as Webster from what I was told. It also leans more toward film criticism than production.

 

There are one or two in Chicago that are good but I don't recall the names off the top of my head.

 

Check out the St. Louis Filmwire if you want to crew up on local productions. I could be bitch slapped for saying this but I do not consider most of the productions there "elite" but you can get a taste of some amateur productions that sometimes approach professionalism.

 

Look at the Missouri Film Commission's website and contact some of the producers to see if you can PA or just come and watch during a shoot. If you want to go to Kansas City, they have more productions there for some reason.

 

Yes, I am in St. Louis.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Rob Belics

[Guest Frank Gossimier]

Hi,

 

I agree 100% with David Mullen but I will have to differ with him on one point...

 

"You can't start out with the house and the kids and THEN try and build a career to support all of that." D. Mullen.

 

True in the film biz there are advantages to being single and "flexible" while you are getting up and running. But I certainly would not put off a family just for the sake of filmmaking. You can always make movies, it's tough to have kids when you're 40. Even for men.

 

Have a look at the guys who made "Napoleon Dynamite," ALL of the key players are guys in their mid twenties and all are married. The director is 24 and has a wife and child. The star is about the same age and is also married with one child. Many of the other cast and crew are also young and married.

 

Also Mitch Davis, who made "The Other Side Of Heaven", went to USC film school with a wife and two kids in tow, then left USC with a wife and three kids in tow. He got Disney to back his first movie made for 7 million. Maybe the studios are more willing to bet on a married, "stable" man with a family, over single guys? I don't know just a thought? Certainly most employers choose married men over single men for management positions.

 

There is also a plus side to being young, married, and in the film biz. Fact is married men live longer and are generally happier than single men. You can't dispute the statistical evidence that shows married men do live longer (sorry Phil :D ). Why is this? Perhaps they are happier and more satisfied with their lives? Having a wife and children can be a great motivator for a man to succeed. And you need all the help you can get in this biz. Plus your wife can be your number one cheering section! This is a business of "no". You get 200 "no's" for every one "yes", a spouse can lend moral support during the "no" phase. Just make sure she knows in advance what type of career you're choosing.

 

While it's true the odds are quite low that you will end up shooting major Hollywood films. The odds are low for "big time" success in the arts period. Whether it's music, painting, acting, etc etc.

 

Don't put off family life just for the sake of films, you can do both at the same time, many do.

 

I know so many people who put off marriage and kids until their mid to late thirties so they could get established in the film biz, and all of them tell me they regret it.

 

Frank

[jordan kersten]

Frank, are you supporting a family as a cinematographer? If so, do you find it extremely difficult or is it somewhat typical: you know, not rich, not dirt poor.

 

And Rob,

Thanks for the links man! I am going to check thoes out right now and see if I can't get in on some productions.

 

Thanks for all the advice again, guys. Please let me know how you guys are doin in life right now and what kind of up's and down's I can expect from the wonderful world of film. What were some problems as you all started out? How did you overcome them? It's a weird feeling: Being sooooo excited and yet soooo scared to do something you soooo love. I guess thats one of the reasons it sucks being artistic, huh? :rolleyes:

[Guest Frank Gossimier]

Oh yes I am absolutely supporting a family and a very nice life style for us all as a cinematographer. I have been doing so for many years now and I'm 36 years old.

 

We are not filthy rich (yet). But our house is certainly much bigger and nicer than other people my age. I'm glad to be able to travel the world and do some thing I like. If it wasn't for cinematography I would not have been able to see as many countries as I have and do amazing things like explore Luxor Egypt and film great whites from a cage. To name a few examples.

 

My wife was even able to quit her job three years ago.

 

Now I'm taking more risks than ever even though I have a family. By more risks I mean making indie films, indie TV shows, and of course the typical indie feature :D

 

I know the odds of me losing the money are all but guaranteed on the film, BUT, you can't take it with you and I'm not getting any younger.

 

Single guys in their early 20s who put off marriage and family for a film career, may not think it was such a good idea when they hit 37. They'll be looking around at many of their friends who are dads by then, and they'll feel a loss. A loss that can not be replaced by success in the film biz no matter how big.

 

All my successes to date have been so fleeting. You feel good when you win an award for about a day, it's amazing how fast the buzz wears off. A family is there for you always, that high never goes away.

 

Find a wife you will support your endevours, and you'll succeed together.

 

Frank

[David Mullen ASC]

On the other hand, quite a few of the people I went to film school with quit the business because they had a family to support.

 

This is just my opinion -- as someone who never had kids -- but I doubt I'd be as risk-taking if I had children to take care of.

 

But I suppose it depends on how many kids you're talking about and how much your wife makes too. I certainly would have had a harder time if my wife hadn't supported me for so many years on her city employee salary. Last year was the first time I actually earned more than her, a nice feeling...

[Guest Frank Gossimier]

Well David you raise another excellent point, being married actually helped you, it didn't hinder you. Your wife was able to work and support you while you got established in the biz. That second income obviously proved beneficial. And you got health insurance via her job as you have pointed out earlier.

 

This method is often used by a lot of married men while they get established in careers. Having a working wife can be a real financial asset. Think of how many doctors are "put through school" by their wives. Medical school ain't cheap.

 

And yes you're quite right many do quit the film biz shortly after graduating film school, that is a known fact. But many single folk are in that group as well, they also have to eat and pay rent or a mortgage.

 

No kids David? Who will carry on the Mullen filmmaking tradition?

 

Frank

[jordan kersten]

Well guys, all your words are much appreciated. I think that I will follow my dream/heart and start the process to get into the film biz. Any words of advice and/or wisdom on gettin in there and getting the reels rolling? :lol:

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> know so many people who put off marriage and kids until their mid to late thirties so

> they could get established in the film biz, and all of them tell me they regret it.

 

Yes, of course they regret it now, when their success is a known factor. How many failed film people have you spoken to who are thanking their lucky stars they didn't put a family through hell before finally having to give up? I think it'd be grotesquely irresponsible for any freelancer to start a family before having at least five or six years of excellent returns.

 

Phil

[Annie Wengenroth]

:sigh: Wellll, I don't know if I am in a good position to comment on this thread right now, having come home from one of the sh*ttiest days at work I think I have ever had! :blink: I work at my school's rental house, I love the job to death...but let's just say that this seems to be the quarter where everything breaks, the checkout software is constantly down, and all the students act like snotty little pr*cks about it... </rant>. Broken Arri lights, dropped zoom lenses, smashed viewfinders... :sob:

 

Having said that, if you want to get into this industry, then go for it! But like Mr. Mullen pointed out, it's not the most secure job out there. Then again, there are many amazing jobs in the world that aren't that secure, so maybe that's okay. It's your decision. I don't have kids nor am I married, yet I am older than you, so we're on different levels here and I'm not sure exactly what you're after. But you won't know until you try.

 

Mr. Rhodes seems to paint a somewhat bleak picture of an industry in which everybody starves. That's his opinion and I respect that, but mine's a little different. I say guess what, the economy sucks and you are going to find frustration wherever you work. So it might as well be with something you love. I'd rather be frustrated at my current job, than frustrated delivering pizzas. No offense to pizza delivery people.

 

Anyway, I basically decided a year ago that my "way in" will be to try and get work at a rental house when I'm done with school and start networking from there, picking up whatever freelance work I can along the way. When I've got more money I'll see about getting positions on bigger crews. You have to start small but more importantly, you have to START, period!

 

I have no idea if my little plan will work out. I have no doubt that I will end up "throwing away" thousands of dollars just getting there, but I might as well give it a shot because it's still better than sitting on your ass wondering what your life would have been like if you'd taken a risk. Just my two cents and then again, maybe I push myself way too hard, but I'd rather look back and say I did too much, than look back and say I didn't do enough.

[Guest Frank Gossimier]

I see what you're saying Phil, and I'm not disputing that there is wisdom in what you say. However, it's also true that there are many industries where there is no guarantee of any thing even after "at least five or six years of excellent returns" as you put it.

 

There are many lawyers who crap out, and an endless number of people in other fields who have a tough time getting established. I know several people who have been fighting for years to get a professorship at a university for example. The competition is cut throat no matter what you choose.

 

Yes the film industry has it's own unique instability when it comes to work, there is no disputing that.

 

The only field I've seen offer people guaranteed steady work is being a doctor. If you have the ability to be one, become one, and make films on the side :D

 

Frank

[David Mullen ASC]

I never said being married was a detriment or a hindrence -- quite the opposite if your spouse believes in you. Often it is easier to bear living expenses, gaps in employment, get health insurance, etc. if you are married, especially if the spouse is in a more stable career than yours.

[Guest Frank Gossimier]

I was more implying to the greater "discussion" that marriage didn't hinder you.

 

Of course I know you didn't mean marriage would be a hinderance.

 

Now if you can marry a woman who also works as a studio exec and has geenlight authority, now you're talking!!

 

RDCB