Ideal Stock for NYC Subways

Ryan Silva · December 30, 2010

Hello,

I'm a film student who recently acquired a Bauer C-20. I come from the DSLR generation of film students, and the only film format I've worked on prior is 16mm (I own a Bolex H16), so I've never had the experience of shooting Super-8 before. For a short film that I'm working on, I was hoping to intercut some footage taken from my DSLR (Canon 5D Mk II) with some highly saturated Super-8 footage.

I'll be shooting the film in one of NYC's more well-illuminated subway stations, and a few shots will be in trains. I've heard various good things about Kodak 7285 stock, but from what I read on the Kodak manual, it seems less suited for an older Super-8 model (The C20 is from 1970-71 I believe). So with that in mind, would anyone want to advise a stock? My Bauer only has the sunlight/tungsten settings.

Thanks in advance.

Miguel Loredo · December 31, 2010

Ektachrome 100D is compatible with 99% of cameras of any time... the problem are precisely the Bauers, not the stock. Although most 40T/160T cameras are also 25D/100D, Bauers aren't.

That said, E100D is the less suitable film to shoot in interiors under artificial light, because it's daybalanced and the necessary filter to correct colour will reduce light 2 full stops. Also I would recommend a high ASA films like Vision3 200T or 500T, but these are negative films and not saturated at all.

Adrian Sierkowski · December 31, 2010

Perhaps you can find Fuji Vivid 500T in S8mm? I'm not sure whether or not they make it though..

Chris Burke · December 31, 2010

Hello,

I'm a film student who recently acquired a Bauer C-20. I come from the DSLR generation of film students, and the only film format I've worked on prior is 16mm (I own a Bolex H16), so I've never had the experience of shooting Super-8 before. For a short film that I'm working on, I was hoping to intercut some footage taken from my DSLR (Canon 5D Mk II) with some highly saturated Super-8 footage.

I'll be shooting the film in one of NYC's more well-illuminated subway stations, and a few shots will be in trains. I've heard various good things about Kodak 7285 stock, but from what I read on the Kodak manual, it seems less suited for an older Super-8 model (The C20 is from 1970-71 I believe). So with that in mind, would anyone want to advise a stock? My Bauer only has the sunlight/tungsten settings.

Thanks in advance.

Yes, your camera is the bottle neck. It cannot read the cartridge correctly and with auto only functionality, you can not compensate that much. Use 7219 which is Vision 3 500T in super 8. It will give you the best exposure in the subway. I suspect that the camera will over expose the film stock at least by a stop or two, but this is good. In terms of saturation, certainly the 100D is more so and would render some really cool looking colors under the mixed lighting, but the 500T being a negative stock, will give you so much wiggle room, that you can simply dial in the saturation you want in the transfer. Bravo on choosing super 8, I hope all goes well and you continue to use it, but even bigger kudos for electing to get the look you want in camera rather than in post. Sadly in this case you may have to fix it in post. If you can get your hands on an "xl" camera I'd at least suggest testing the 100D underground. Have fun. Happy New Year.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Chris Burke

Ryan Silva · January 1, 2011

Yes, your camera is the bottle neck. It cannot read the cartridge correctly and with auto only functionality, you can not compensate that much. Use 7219 which is Vision 3 500T in super 8. It will give you the best exposure in the subway. I suspect that the camera will over expose the film stock at least by a stop or two, but this is good. In terms of saturation, certainly the 100D is more so and would render some really cool looking colors under the mixed lighting, but the 500T being a negative stock, will give you so much wiggle room, that you can simply dial in the saturation you want in the transfer. Bravo on choosing super 8, I hope all goes well and you continue to use it, but even bigger kudos for electing to get the look you want in camera rather than in post. Sadly in this case you may have to fix it in post. If you can get your hands on an "xl" camera I'd at least suggest testing the 100D underground. Have fun. Happy New Year.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've checked some footage that the 7219 puts out -- exactly what I'm looking for in terms of potential for some decent saturation. And yeah, ideally I try to accomplish effects in-camera, as much as I tempted to do otherwise. I like the challenge in it. But again, thanks for the tip, I appreciate it.

K Borowski · January 1, 2011

I'm not the most knowledgeable S8 shooter, only having done a few cartridges (DR8 is another matter), but with S8 cameras being so cheap, why not pick up one that can function with 100D notching?

Or borrow something in DS8, or 16mm.

Someone on here wanted to try to match DSLR footage with 16, and I said it would be tough, there'd be a glaring difference in DOF (far deeper with a DSLR) grain, and colors.

S8 will be a jarring difference, although 100D, exposed properly (but can you GET exposure for it on a subway, correcting for probably ugly green standard fluoros?) should have comparable granularity to 500T 16.

If you don't want a grainy mess, I would highly caution against your shooting anything in 500T S8 and trying to intercut it with DSLR.

If you're going for a difference, then this is another matter altogether. I definitely think '85 is your best choice for saturation, or another Fuji reversal stock. Seem to recall Velvia 50D being available too. That would have the absolute finest grain available if it's still available. Think it was a special order. Only shot Kodachrome and Video News Film myself.

Ryan Silva · January 1, 2011

I'm looking for the kind of grain and unique saturation that's coming from the Super-8 footage, however. From the images that I've seen come out of this particular type of film, it's just what I'm looking for. The camera was sort of an heirloom, which is why I was curious to see if I could pull off the desired look with the equipment I already had. But I'm more than willing to give the 7219 a shot and see what happens. I'm probably only going to be shooting two rolls of the stuff, and if needed, I can do some work in post. I'd rather not, but I'm not gonna complain if I have to. If I can get close to the desired effect that I'm looking for in those subways, though -- I'll definitely look into getting a better camera body. Maybe a Nizo. This is more me wanting to test the limits of the film itself in various environments.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Ryan Silva

K Borowski · January 1, 2011

If you have '19, why not shoot with the H16? You can probably even snag some ends of '19 or the Fuji equivalent, as there are still some TV shows shooting S16 (you''ll probably have to look on the West Coast for them though).

Otherwise, I'd stay far away from '19 altogether. . . You'll have grain like canonballs, nothing like 100D, and certainly something that won't come remotely close to matching anythign coming out of a DSLR, unless you're shooting at EI100,000 stopped all the way down.

One other thing I'd like to say, with response to what Chris is saying: You won't have the latitude of negative shooting '85, but you have just as much color control and wiggle room for correcting out casts with reversal as with negative. Reversal probably gives telecine equipment more trouble with its huge gamma than negative, but if you have proper exposure you can pull out all sorts of color casts and correct minor (less than one stop) over- or underexposure. Main advantage of '85 would be the far-tighter grain. It's arguably Kodak's finest-grained current reversal stock (though not quite as fine as K25 or K40A, sadly).

And you'll have a great exposure meter in that DSLR. If you know what you're doing, you can nail exposure to a T with the DSLR to guide you.

Edited January 1, 2011 by K Borowski

Ryan Silva · January 1, 2011

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in the original post -- and I'm sorry -- but I really don't have a desire to get a perfect exposure out of the Super-8 footage or come close to the quality of the DSLR. Not to say that I'm intentionally degrading the footage, but I want a little-more of the amateurish look that came out of some of the older home movies. That's not to say I plan on just pointing and shooting, but... I guess more to recapture an aesthetic. That's as close as I can really explain it.

I'd actually prefer shooting in the H16, but there's a host of reasons why it just wouldn't work on the current project, sadly.

You won't have the latitude of negative shooting '85, but you have just as much color control and wiggle room for correcting out casts with reversal as with negative. Reversal probably gives telecine equipment more trouble with its huge gamma than negative, but if you have proper exposure you can pull out all sorts of color casts and correct minor (less than one stop) over- or underexposure. Main advantage of '85 would be the far-tighter grain. It's arguably Kodak's finest-grained current reversal stock (though not quite as fine as K25 or K40A, sadly).

That's an interesting point you're making, though. Something to look into. I'll plan on doing tests for both, then.

K Borowski · January 1, 2011

That's an interesting point you're making, though. Something to look into. I'll plan on doing tests for both, then.

Good for you, man. A lot of film school students can write term papers about why they don't have enough time or money to test. If you do, please post your results here.

I would look into Velvia too, but first thing you want to do (I assume you ride the subway often) is go on there with a light meter and see if (with a color correction filter) you can even obtain proper exposure with slower stocks. DSLRs are handy for figuring out color temperature quickly.

Chris Burke · January 3, 2011

If you have '19, why not shoot with the H16? You can probably even snag some ends of '19 or the Fuji equivalent, as there are still some TV shows shooting S16 (you''ll probably have to look on the West Coast for them though).

Otherwise, I'd stay far away from '19 altogether. . . You'll have grain like canonballs, nothing like 100D, and certainly something that won't come remotely close to matching anythign coming out of a DSLR, unless you're shooting at EI100,000 stopped all the way down.

One other thing I'd like to say, with response to what Chris is saying: You won't have the latitude of negative shooting '85, but you have just as much color control and wiggle room for correcting out casts with reversal as with negative. Reversal probably gives telecine equipment more trouble with its huge gamma than negative, but if you have proper exposure you can pull out all sorts of color casts and correct minor (less than one stop) over- or underexposure. Main advantage of '85 would be the far-tighter grain. It's arguably Kodak's finest-grained current reversal stock (though not quite as fine as K25 or K40A, sadly).

And you'll have a great exposure meter in that DSLR. If you know what you're doing, you can nail exposure to a T with the DSLR to guide you.

7219 isn't that grainy, believe it or not. I am often expecting lots of grain and end up surprised at how little there is for 500T super 8.

Ryan, you may also want to contact pro8mm about testing some fuji vivid 500T in super 8. The vivid deep blacks make it very appealing, I'd say even more so than the kodak. It is also very color saturated.