EPIC first impressions

[John Brawley]

I had a visit today from Ted Schilowitz of RED and he brought along an EPIC and Scarlet to show off.

 

Just some first impressions here....

 

jb

[Matt Stevens]

Holy cow, it's smaller than I anticipated.

[Francesco Bonomo]

thanks for the report, John.

you wrote:

"they’ve cleverly made it easier to backfocus by putting in a device that moves the entire sensor to change the backfocus"

So that means that the sensor position is relative and not fixed? I'm asking this because while it could be a good thing for adjusting back focus, it will have some influence on measuring focus from the sensor plane, if I'm understanding this correctly.

 

You also mentioned 14 custom buttons: no problem with that, though it looks like the RedMote or touch screen would be good enough for 99% of situations, but once you've assigned a function to each one of them, how do you identify them?

Edited March 2, 2011 by Francesco Bonomo

[John Brawley]

thanks for the report, John.

you wrote:

"they’ve cleverly made it easier to backfocus by putting in a device that moves the entire sensor to change the backfocus"

So that means that the sensor position is relative and not fixed? I'm asking this because while it could be a good thing for adjusting back focus, it will have some influence on measuring focus from the sensor plane, if I'm understanding this correctly.

 

I wouldn't have thought so...we're talking hundreds of a millimetre adjustments for backfocus....have you got actors that can hit marks like that ? ;-)

 

You also mentioned 14 custom buttons: no problem with that, though it looks like the RedMote or touch screen would be good enough for 99% of situations, but once you've assigned a function to each one of them, how do you identify them?

 

I'd use what i use now....a DYMO labeller !

 

jb

[Francesco Bonomo]

I wouldn't have thought so...we're talking hundreds of a millimetre adjustments for backfocus....have you got actors that can hit marks like that ? ;-)

 

nope, but even though it may sound incredibly strange to you, I got DPs who could freak out for things like that :-) luckily, not many.

 

I'd use what i use now....a DYMO labeller !

 

Yeah, I was referring to custom labels, I was just wondering, since it's so small, if in your opinion there's enough room for that.

(14 custom buttons seem a LOT to me, anyway, but that doesn't mean we MUST use all of them, so it's ok)

[John Brawley]

nope, but even though it may sound incredibly strange to you, I got DPs who could freak out for things like that :-) luckily, not many.

 

 

 

Yeah, I was referring to custom labels, I was just wondering, since it's so small, if in your opinion there's enough room for that.

(14 custom buttons seem a LOT to me, anyway, but that doesn't mean we MUST use all of them, so it's ok)

 

 

I don't think it's going to contribute to focus issues unless it's way out of it's correct depth...but by then the lens would be *out* anyways....

 

The buttons had labels on them such as "A" "B" "C" etc....i guess you'd end up maybe remembering what you program them to be after a while...i's one of those *good* problems to have though !

 

All the menus are very quickly accessed via the menu anyway.....

 

jb

[Francesco Bonomo]

I don't think it's going to contribute to focus issues unless it's way out of it's correct depth...but by then the lens would be *out* anyways....

 

I agree.

 

The buttons had labels on them such as "A" "B" "C" etc....i guess you'd end up maybe remembering what you program them to be after a while...i's one of those *good* problems to have though !

 

As I wrote earlier, i'd rather have 14 buttons and use 1 than have none when I need it. Besides, the camera will be bigger with modules, so nothing prevents from making labels as "A=*function* and attach it to the side anyway.

 

All the menus are very quickly accessed via the menu anyway.....

 

I've only seen pictures or shitty youtube videos of the display or the redmote, but it surely looks easy, and that's a huge relief considering it comes from the people who gave us the original Red menu.

[Stuart Brereton]

I wouldn't have thought so...we're talking hundreds of a millimetre adjustments for backfocus....have you got actors that can hit marks like that ? ;-)

 

There are days when I'd be happy with actors who could stop within 3' of their marks..... ;)

[Francesco Bonomo]

There are days when I'd be happy with actors who could stop within 3' of their marks..... ;)

 

...after hitting them at least 5 times during rehearsal... :lol:

[Dom Jaeger]

thanks for the report, John.

you wrote:

"they’ve cleverly made it easier to backfocus by putting in a device that moves the entire sensor to change the backfocus"

 

This is one of those ideas that sounds like a good thing but could actually prove to be a hindrance.

 

Unless it's incredibly well engineered and machined, having a large sensor on what is presumably some sort of motorised rack and pinion mechanism could introduce all sorts of problems. For one thing the sensor needs to remain flat with respect to the mount to within 10 microns from edge to edge (both vertically and horizontally), so any contamination of the sliding surfaces, wear or play in the mechanism could result in a slightly tilted sensor.

 

It needs to be held in its setting securely enough that a knock to the camera body or any external vibration won't cause even the slightest change in the flange depth.

 

How will the mechanism cope with temperature changes? How easy is it to accidently adjust?

 

I can foresee scenarios where each time a lens is changed the flange depth gets adjusted.

 

Of course I could be wrong, and it's a fine idea. Time will tell I guess.

[John Brawley]

This is one of those ideas that sounds like a good thing but could actually prove to be a hindrance.

 

Unless it's incredibly well engineered and machined, having a large sensor on what is presumably some sort of motorised rack and pinion mechanism could introduce all sorts of problems. For one thing the sensor needs to remain flat with respect to the mount to within 10 microns from edge to edge (both vertically and horizontally), so any contamination of the sliding surfaces, wear or play in the mechanism could result in a slightly tilted sensor.

 

It needs to be held in its setting securely enough that a knock to the camera body or any external vibration won't cause even the slightest change in the flange depth.

 

How will the mechanism cope with temperature changes? How easy is it to accidently adjust?

 

I can foresee scenarios where each time a lens is changed the flange depth gets adjusted.

 

Of course I could be wrong, and it's a fine idea. Time will tell I guess.

 

 

You have to take the top handle off completely to adjust it from what I understand.

 

The Aaton's XTR PROD has a similar system with their ground glass adjustment. You pop a small cap off the side and adjust the flange depth of the ground glass through a small hole with a hex key and in the the company of a good collimator.

 

There never seemed to be any problems with it going *out* in my 5 years in a rental company with 8 of them. You always would check it before each job though...just like backfoucs....

 

jb

 

 

 

I didn't see the mechanism in action, but you had to take the top handle off the camera off to actually get to the adjustment, which was a hex key buried down deep inside ( i think)

 

I know that there is a similar mechanism for adjusting the flange depth of the ground glass on an Aaton XTRprod as well. Pop the little screw on the side and adjust ( in the company of a collimator)

 

It never seemed to be *out* for no apparent reason either, but one would always check it before goin out on a job with the camera. Just like back focus....

 

jb

[Keith Walters]

I had a visit today from Ted Schilowitz of RED and he brought along an EPIC and Scarlet to show off.

 

Just some first impressions here....

 

jb

There's an actual Epic in the country?!

That probably explains all the floods, earthquakes and freezing summer weather.

All to no avail of course :rolleyes:

 

By the way, what ever happened to Lowdown?

Was it only ever a short series, or did the ABC ship it off to some forgotten timeslot?

[Dom Jaeger]

You have to take the top handle off completely to adjust it from what I understand.

 

The Aaton's XTR PROD has a similar system with their ground glass adjustment. You pop a small cap off the side and adjust the flange depth of the ground glass through a small hole with a hex key and in the the company of a good collimator.

 

There never seemed to be any problems with it going *out* in my 5 years in a rental company with 8 of them. You always would check it before each job though...just like backfoucs....

 

jb

 

Right, so it's a mechanical adjustment. Sorry, from your description of a clever new 'device' I imagined something electronic.

 

Still seems a bit risky though. As you observed with the Aatons, ground glass adjustments tend to be made once and then left alone. 35mm Arri cameras have several set screws to adjust the depth, flatness and position of the ground glass, and it certainly isn't a procedure I'd want to do in the field. With something the size of a 5K sensor I would think the adjustment would need to be even more critical, notwithstanding the fact that a ground glass image isn't what's actually being recorded.

 

I'm not directing this at you John, just throwing it out there, but I guess my query is: why the need for an operator-adjustable flange depth in a professional camera? Shouldn't professionals be using properly collimated lenses? And if the flange depth does require adjustment, why move the sensor and possibly introduce alignment issues when it's much safer to just re-shim the mount?

[John Brawley]

There's an actual Epic in the country?!

That probably explains all the floods, earthquakes and freezing summer weather.

All to no avail of course :rolleyes:

 

By the way, what ever happened to Lowdown?

Was it only ever a short series, or did the ABC ship it off to some forgotten timeslot?

 

 

CMON Keith it's on RIGHT NOW on the abc. It's in it's second screening after premiering last year.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/lowdown/

[John Brawley]

Right, so it's a mechanical adjustment. Sorry, from your description of a clever new 'device' I imagined something electronic.

 

Still seems a bit risky though. As you observed with the Aatons, ground glass adjustments tend to be made once and then left alone. 35mm Arri cameras have several set screws to adjust the depth, flatness and position of the ground glass, and it certainly isn't a procedure I'd want to do in the field. With something the size of a 5K sensor I would think the adjustment would need to be even more critical, notwithstanding the fact that a ground glass image isn't what's actually being recorded.

 

I'm not directing this at you John, just throwing it out there, but I guess my query is: why the need for an operator-adjustable flange depth in a professional camera? Shouldn't professionals be using properly collimated lenses? And if the flange depth does require adjustment, why move the sensor and possibly introduce alignment issues when it's much safer to just re-shim the mount?

 

I'd rather adjust the depth with a hex screw than having to re-shim. What a pain in the arse.

 

I've got 5 RED bodies on a show right now. We checked the back focus at the begin inning and weve not yet had to change it.

 

For some reason, some people have lots more trouble with RED back focus. I often make it though a show without changing in it once.

 

There are two things that can go wrong. A lens can be out or the mount can be out.

 

On a film camera there are three things so it's actually more complex than you're giving credit for.. The lens can out. The mount can be out and the ground glass can be out.

 

There are tolerances and if you're on the + and - sides momf those then you can still be out. I'd much rather be able to make a simple mechanical adjustment than to have to carry a aet of shims, pull the entire mount off ( which can introduce more issues..not seating...shims not seating etc...) then put it back together. The thing is, that these higher resolution digitval cameras seem to have less wriggle room. I reckon you could get away with more on film. Ask any focus puller...RED is less forgiving....

 

Just assuming a lens is collomated makes no allowance for temperature differences, freight, differences in mount machining...let alone if the lens is even right in the first place. You're wanting to get rid of the potential for a back focus error from mis-seating vs assuming that every lens you get is perfectly collimated ? You're much more likely to get a lens that isn't perfectly collimated in my opinion....

 

JB

[John Sprung]

The devil's in the details. How do they move the sensor? How do they lock it in place without any shift in the adjustment? Having a lens or two that need special tweaks every time you go to them, and every time you go back to the others, would be a royal pain in the tush no matter how easy the back focal adjustment is. To get the body and lenses all set up correctly before you start production should be a bench job at the rental house, not something the AC's are supposed to do in the field.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[David Mullen ASC]

The devil's in the details. How do they move the sensor? How do they lock it in place without any shift in the adjustment? Having a lens or two that need special tweaks every time you go to them, and every time you go back to the others, would be a royal pain in the tush no matter how easy the back focal adjustment is. To get the body and lenses all set up correctly before you start production should be a bench job at the rental house, not something the AC's are supposed to do in the field.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

 

 

Keep in mind that this is also an owner-operator camera so this may make things for owners to adjust the back-focus. Ideally, you wouldn't have to touch it very often, but over the years, there have all sorts of oddball issues with back-focus and digital cameras, particularly the Red One, like the fact that Master Primes, for some reason, need to have their back-focus adjusted for the Red One. Not sure why, you'd think all PL-mount lenses would focus at the same distance exactly.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over this issue until more is known. If the back-focus can be set, locked, and forgotten about until the next time it becomes an issue, I don't see a problem with making it user-adjustable as opposed to needing shims and whatnot.

[Keith Walters]

CMON Keith it's on RIGHT NOW on the abc. It's in it's second screening after premiering last year.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/lowdown/

????

 

This is what it says on the link you gave me:

 

"Latest Episode

Project Runaway

Wednesday 9 June 2010

 

Project Starsearch finalist Joss Miller (Jane Harber) has absconded from the show's compound, jeopardising the multi-million dollar TV final.

Wednesday 9pm on ABC1

Thursday 8:30pm on ABC2"

 

 

After laborioulsy wading through my Electronic Program Guide, I've discovered re-runs of the original series are being showing on ABC2 on thursdays, but at 9PM.

No sign of it on ABC1

 

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. Was there asecond season, or not.?

If there was, did you mention it here?

 

 

I have to admit I'm not much in the habit of scanning through the secondary channels; it's hard enough finding anything worth watching on the main channels!

[John Brawley]

????

 

This is what it says on the link you gave me:

 

"Latest Episode

Project Runaway

Wednesday 9 June 2010

 

Project Starsearch finalist Joss Miller (Jane Harber) has absconded from the show's compound, jeopardising the multi-million dollar TV final.

Wednesday 9pm on ABC1

Thursday 8:30pm on ABC2"

 

 

After laborioulsy wading through my Electronic Program Guide, I've discovered re-runs of the original series are being showing on ABC2 on thursdays, but at 9PM.

No sign of it on ABC1

 

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. Was there asecond season, or not.?

If there was, did you mention it here?

 

 

I have to admit I'm not much in the habit of scanning through the secondary channels; it's hard enough finding anything worth watching on the main channels!

 

 

Yeah i think the ABC aren't great at updating their micro sites. That's all from the first airing, but yeah they are re-running the show now. It looks like a second run of the series is going towards the end of the year.....you haven't even seen the first run yet though !!!

 

jb

[John Brawley]

Not sure why, you'd think all PL-mount lenses would focus at the same distance exactly.

.

 

Exactly.

 

[quote name='David Mullen ASC' timestamp='1299188518' post='346319'

Anyway, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over this issue until more is known. If the back-focus can be set, locked, and forgotten about until the next time it becomes an issue, I don't see a problem with making it user-adjustable as opposed to needing shims and whatnot.

 

 

It's not an issue unless they totally screw up the design. And that would be a deal breaker of course. To me It's an improvement over their current approach which was a pain in the arse, but was at least better than re-shimming. I think a lot of the back-focus issues are more to do with a lack of understanding and knowledge about how to actually set it properly in the first place.

 

jb

[Daniel Porto]

their current approach which was a pain in the arse

 

There is nothing worse then when you set it, lock it and then it shifts!!!!

 

However, back to the EPIC... The build that the camera is currently running (at least TED's cameras build) is unable to run time-lapse, playback footage and although the redmote works it isn't fully functional. Yes it allows you to change settings however I was unable to see which particular setting I was adjusting and had to look on the monitor. Nonetheless this will be fixed and I was very impressed by the camera.

 

The ability to shoot "5K" images with such a small body is amazing. However there are some drawbacks... There is only one monitor/eyepiece out on the body meaning that you cannot run both at the same time - its one or the other. Also the battery life of the EPIC when powered by the side handle didn't seem to last long at all... I remember TED mentioning it lasts 30 minutes. So yes there will be some occasions where it will be fine to run the camera brain only but I imagine that the majority of feature shooting will include the addition of both the I/O and battery module.

 

The best thing about this camera is that you can configure exactly the way you want, adding and subtracting modules that you may or may not need. So with 3D gaining popularity and the fact that 2 EPIC's in 3D handheld configuration weigh as much as a single 435 in handheld configuration... I suspect this camera will become the workhorse of the world.

 

But what will Panavision and Sony (with their "4K" camera) bring to the table?

[Daniel Porto]

2 EPIC's in 3D handheld configuration weigh as much as a single 435 in handheld configuration...

I should mention that this is according to Zohn Schwartzman, DP of The Amazing Spiderman

[Francesco Bonomo]

So yes there will be some occasions where it will be fine to run the camera brain only but I imagine that the majority of feature shooting will include the addition of both the I/O and battery module.

 

I thought the same when I read about those modules and saw the first renderings.

So far I've only seen pictures and videos of the camera in a Dslr-like configuration or on 3D rigs, so it'll be interesting to see how you can configure it for different situations. Based on the pictures I've seen, there are a couple of things that make me scratch my head, but I won't say anything before I actually put my hands on the camera and test it, whenever that will be. I only hope the more important modules, like the ones you mentioned, will be available at the same time the camera ships to rental houses.

 

I suspect this camera will become the workhorse of the world.

 

It will perfect for some things, not so much for others, just like any other camera. More tools to choose from is a great thing for all users and for the market. I'm 100% sure It will be widely used and it will push other manufacturers to come up with better cameras, but there will be the ones who won't like it for one reason or another and who will shoot on different cameras (as weird as it may sound - and I don't necessarily agree with it - I've talked to 2 camera operators who told me they already don't like it because it's too small, and they haven't even tried it).

[John Brawley]

There is nothing worse then when you set it, lock it and then it shifts!!!!

 

This happens with shims as well. You measure the depth, you choose a shim, you take the mount off, you put in the new shim, you put the mount back on, you measure the depth, only to find the mount measures differently despite the thickness of the shim you've put in....

 

The ability to shoot "5K" images with such a small body is amazing. However there are some drawbacks... There is only one monitor/eyepiece out on the body meaning that you cannot run both at the same time - its one or the other. Also the battery life of the EPIC when powered by the side handle didn't seem to last long at all... I remember TED mentioning it lasts 30 minutes. So yes there will be some occasions where it will be fine to run the camera brain only but I imagine that the majority of feature shooting will include the addition of both the I/O and battery module.

 

Well i think it's bit hard to knock them for *only* having a battery that can run for 30 mins and a single LCD output.... That's only for running in this very minimal configuration. At least you DONT have to have a battery running through a cable somewhere else. The 235 has a similar modest capacity battery that can make it self contained, OR you get a bigger one that runs external. You can add single or dual batteries and extra monitors on the various modules out the back so there's no *issue* as far as I can see...just flexibility....this is the most pared back minimal version of the camera.....I'm excited about having a camera this small as an operator. I can pimp the camera up if I want to, but I love the idea of doing more intimate handheld work with this form factor...(and it has SDI out for video split anyway). All the other stuff that doesn't work yet will come I'm sure. It's more *finished* in terms of software than the first RED was !

 

 

But what will Panavision and Sony (with their "4K" camera) bring to the table?

 

Panavison have been working on a replacement for the Geneisis for years (with some kind of HDR option), but I wonder if we'll ever see it. They seem to be in financial difficulty. I haven't used a Sony camera for...well years......I tried one of their F3's recently. The camera itself is nice in terms of the form factor....but I was very underwhelmed with the end results....I did a shootout with 35mm, Super 16, RED MX, Alexa, a 1D and the F3. We're just in the middle of doing the film outs but the F3 was the worst performer in my opinion. I would say though we had an engineering prototype so it's possible a little unfair, but the codec is VERY limiting, along with the apparent DR of the camera. As I say, I personally haven't used a Sony camera by choice for a long time....I'll keep checking in on their progress, but they aren't really making cinema cameras that I want to use.

 

jb

[Dom Jaeger]

This happens with shims as well. You measure the depth, you choose a shim, you take the mount off, you put in the new shim, you put the mount back on, you measure the depth, only to find the mount measures differently despite the thickness of the shim you've put in....

jb

 

I have to respectfully disagree on this. If you follow some very simple guidelines - avoid damaged or dirty shims, line up the screw holes and do up the mounting screws with even tightness in opposing pairs - shimming is 100% foolproof. Takes me about 5 minutes and I've never had a problem.

 

I imagine that's why shims are used to adjust the back focus on every high end modern cine lens and the flange depth on virtually every professional cine camera (including Alexa).

 

Having said all that, Moviecams and Arricams do have the facility for technicians to fine tune the flange depth by one or two hundredths of a mm using a hex key adjustment that moves the entire inner skeleton relative to the mount, but anything outside this limit (effectively twice the allowable flange depth tolerance) requires a shim change. This is primarily because the gate flatness (and position) can't be maintained if the skeleton is moved more than this.

 

If the Epic engineers were sensible that's how they've designed their camera - shim the mount to within tolerance, then allow a tiny adjustment to compensate for minute variations in lens back focus. Really, any professional cine lens that is out by more than a few hundredths of a mm (an imperial thou or two) probably has more issues than just back focus and shouldn't be used until a technician has checked it over. That kind of error usually means it's been dropped, damaged in transit or has a loose element.