flogging the dead horse...

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Absolutely any shot ever directed by Michael Bay.

 

Absolutely any shot ever produced by Jerry Bruckheimer.

 

And this is a very serious issue for me because both have been involved in some excellent filmmaking, but their work is generally such a repugnant, vacous exercise in hopelessly bankrupt intellectual mediocrity that I am forced, on principle, to dislike it all.

 

Phil

[Guest fstop]

Hi,

 

Absolutely any shot ever directed by Michael Bay.

 

Absolutely any shot ever produced by Jerry Bruckheimer.

 

And this is a very serious issue for me because both have been involved in some excellent filmmaking,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

WHERE??

 

Bruckheimer was the middle man on Pirates between Verbinski and Disney and the original Beverly Hills Cop was his name only- Martin Brest, as it's well documented, fought Bruckheimer and Simpson who tried to have him fired! Thankgod Paramount stood in the way.

 

Bay's name is somehow on the Texas Chainsaw remake, but everything else he's touched has been a crime against cinema.

[Matt Pacini]

I'd have to argue against the idea stated in a couple posts above, about these being "just tools, when used appropriately, are OK", because for most of these chiche shots, I don't see any justification whatsoever for them as far as the story goes.

 

I have no doubt the responsible person(s) is thinking either:

 

1. Wow, this would look cool (with no other reasoning at all) or,

2. Scorsese/Tarrantino/Michael Bay (fill in his favorite director/movie here) used this shot, so I'm gonna use it to be cool like him.

 

I mean come on, what story line ABSOLUTELY NEEDS a fridge shot?

Or what story justification is there for the "guys running away and jumping right as the explosion goes off" effect?

 

Matt Pacini

[Jonathan Spear]

"You think that's his real last name???"

 

Mark Vincent.

 

"Vin Deisel".

 

:rolleyes:

 

Silly goose.

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, the justification of the camera being inside a fridge looking out is to see the actor's face when they are looking in, which may have a dramatic motivation, for example, they are talking but looking away from the person they are talking too, not wanting to make eye contact, and the camera is placed where we can see their expression.

 

The whole flipside to this discussion is that it can be just as bad for a director to keep trying to do things in new ways because "that's been done before" -- in other words, being different for the sake of being different. Some techniques keep being used because they are still emotionally the most effective way to shoot a scene. In other words, they aint cliches when they still work, only when they don't work.

 

For example, the slow elegiac crane shots like in the funeral scene in "Superman" -- which inspired me to suggest some crane shots in "Northfork" -- are obviously repetitions of shots used in old westerns, etc. but they have the effect of both simultaneously creating 3D depth on endless rolling plains, which create a visual feeling of loneliness and demonstrate the smallness of humans in the vast landscape, but also suggest closure, like a theatrical curtain coming down at the end of a scene.

[Tenolian Bell]

I never get that worked up or upset over a shot. It's not that serious for me.

 

There are cliche' shots all through filmmaking. In the 70's they used the zoom like crazy.

 

Give me a good story and a cliche' shot doesn't bother me so much.

[Michael Nash]

Jeez, you guys hate everything!

 

So what shots do you LOVE? If all these shots, that define the vocabulary of modern cinema, are too painful to watch, then what DO you want to see? What would a good-looking movie look like, that doesn't contain any of these shots?

 

And I have to heartily disagree that the "shots don't make the story." I mean come on, we're cinematographers; we're telling the story with images. If we can't do that, then lets just pack it all up and go home, and let the director prop up a camera in the corner while the actors just do their thing in front of it.

 

Huf. <_<

[jeff striker]

I agree with Teno

Shots don't make the story--characters do...

 

When use properly alot of these shots or effects work

When used improperly then they can become annoying...

 

Eitherways this is the exact reason filmmakers and cinematographers

aren't choosen for market research...

You're average audience loves most of these shots

That's why they keep doing them...to please & appease the common-folk

 

Movies are made by filmmakers but not for filmmakers...

Tis a shame...

but imagine a world were movies were made to please & appease filmmakers

Could be a scary episode of the Twilight Zone  :o

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

this quote by terry gilliam seemed somewhat relevant

 

"People in Hollywood are not showmen, they're maintenance men, pandering to what they think their audiences want."

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Yesterday, I shot a Steadicam roundy-round and a black music artist in a flo-lit corridor on a dolly.

 

May I please beg forgiveness?

 

Phil

[andrewbuchanan]

Phil - sounds like you got to play with cool toys so, I think we can let it slide.

 

OKAY, I guess we should balance out the "hatin'" with some love.

 

I was watching Road Warrior the other night and was just BLOWN AWAY by the framing and composition of the shots. I mean it was shocking how well shot and directed that film is.

 

I came to the spot where a by now very pissed off Mel Gibson walks into the garage and steps into the darkness and the matte black bad m$%#!&%^$#r muslce car emerges from the darkness. What a perfect shot. No dolly. No steadicam. Just cinema. The light/dark was used to cover a change in his character: from man to machine. It was beautiful, simple, and most importantly using the camera to tell the story.

 

Anybody else?

[Mario Jimenez]

was it even better than "Beyond Thunder Dome"????

 

:P

[Nate Downes]

You know what I'm most sick of: SHAKY CAMERA

 

It's beyond epidemic when it happens in the Oscars.

[Matt Pacini]

Yeha, I nominate the Shaky Cam as the most annoying cliche, because it seems to be everywhere in the last couple years, usually completely unmotivated (especially that shot in The Village, where you're supposed to think it's in the 1800's).

 

Speaking of good composition, The Predator is amazingly well shot & composed, especially given that it's just a monster film, and it must have been a pain in the ass to film in a jungle.

Mere mere mortals like myself would be very likely to say "screw it, just put the camera on sticks & shoot the scene, I can't take these mosquitos any longer"

 

Matt Pacini

[drew_town]

The shot I role my eyes at the most is the "look straight down from a helicopter over a city at night" shot that's in a LOT of movies. POV shots are annoying unless I need that perspective. I like handheld shots and scenes and you can win me over most times with that. I also love the way Requiem for a Dream is shot as well as the Bourne Supremacy and the textures of Snow Falling on Cedars. I like the grit of 28 Days Later and the simple shapes of Dogville. Kudos to the other posts they're really funny and absolutely correct. Wink.

[brooklyn]

I just can't wait to hear about the poor Steadicam Op who has to fly with the Genesis onboard...It's gonna make for some funny poop on set I would reckon. Singer - "I want this 360 around routhy in this barn in shitsville middle of Australia...by the way, haven't art dept. done a great job with the pillars".

To which the our long suffering steadicam op passes out on the spot and is crushed by the Genesis, and then electrocuted cos its pulling 17 amps:)

[Gordon Highland]

Oh! I just thought of one! (a month later. . .)

 

Tracking with a spool of yellow police tape as it's rolled out and tied off to establish a crime scene. It was clever the FIRST time. . . (as were many of these devices).

[Micah Fernandez]

The Vertigo shot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, the dolly/zoom. I'm with you.

[Danny CSC]

Here's two more for ya's:

 

The scared girl is peering around a spooky room when a child's figure crosses quickly in camera's foreground. Ussually accompanied by violent musical chord.

 

The character has a drowning flashback. Most often it's in a bathtub with victim's face being held under water in ECU right into camera. She struggles in terror and finally goes limp.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I just watched Aliens yesterday, and... is it actually a policy of American schools to teach children to begin walking backwards when in dangerous situations?

 

At least when you do finally walk into someone, you can perform the "Aargh! Oh, it's you," cliche correctly. And Aliens has the dramatic-foreground-child shot, too.

 

Phil

[Matt Pacini]

Oh yeah, you nailed it.

That "walking through a dark house/building" backwards thing drives me nuts.

Also, the bit where they hear a noise, and a cat comes flying at them in midair, as if cats can fly.

 

The most annoying chiche of all though, seems to be in every "buddy" film, and that's where two people are racing in a car (usually trying to outrun the bad guy), and then something scary is in front of them (a mac truck heading for them usually), and they both look at each other, then forwards, and scream.

I mean, come on. This has been used like 800 times, and I STILL see it.

Shameless cheesyness.

 

 

MP

[Marty Hamrick]

Many mentioned here, too many to list in  such a dire post-modern era litterd with

The Vertigo shot.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Is this the shot where the camera dollis one direction while zooming the opposite?Yeah,that's gotten old.

[not valid]

The only shot mentioned that i cant stand is the run and jump from explosion shot. All the other shots that are mentioned i can tolerate except maybe the stare at each other and scream thing. I think you can use any of these shots in their own context effectivly without it looking cliche.

[Marty Hamrick]

Jeez, you guys hate everything!

 

So what shots do you LOVE? If all these shots, that define the vocabulary of modern cinema, are too painful to watch, then what DO you want to see? What would a good-looking movie look like, that doesn't contain any of these shots?

 

And I have to heartily disagree that the "shots don't make the story." I mean come on, we're cinematographers; we're telling the story with images. If we can't do that, then lets just pack it all up and go home, and let the director prop up a camera in the corner while the actors just do their thing in front of it.

 

Huf. <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The success of tellying a story on the screen is a result of the collaborative efforts of all professionals,directors,actors,cinematographers,editors,etc.,so shots DO make the story IF all the other elements are coming into play as well.The annoying cliche comes from the over use of one particular thing,be it a shot in a movie,a song or a line of dialogue.The good part of that is that we can have fun with it.Movies like Airplane with the lampooning of the bad rear projection shots and the Scary Movie series with satired shots from every horror movie(although I question whether or not the whole target demographic got the lampooning of the dolly shots from the 1973 classic,Legend of Hell House).

A "good looking movie" to me is one that draws me into the story where I feel for the characters in the story.Whether it has a hackneyed cliched shot in it is only unworkable if it detracts from that experience.Its not something that you can singly dissect and point to,but you know it when you see it.

[Chris Keth]

I'd have to argue against the idea stated in a couple posts above, about these being "just tools, when used appropriately, are OK", because for most of these chiche shots, I don't see any justification whatsoever for them as far as the story goes.

 

I have no doubt the responsible person(s) is thinking either:

 

1. Wow, this would look cool (with no other reasoning at all) or,

2. Scorsese/Tarrantino/Michael Bay (fill in his favorite director/movie here) used this shot, so I'm gonna use it to be cool like him.

 

I mean come on, what story line ABSOLUTELY NEEDS a fridge shot?

Or what story justification is there for the "guys running away and jumping right as the explosion goes off" effect?

 

Matt Pacini

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Of course this stuff isn't needed. Hell, stories don't need cameras or sound to exist. Maybe all stories should be told by bards instead of becoming movies. It'd save so much money, nobody needs moving pictures or sound anyway. :)

 

 

See my point? Of course x shot isn't needed but it's done because it either looks good that way or because it serves the story psychologically. Not every unique shot in a movie needs to have a psychological motivation.

[Marty Hamrick]

I mean come on, what story line ABSOLUTELY NEEDS a fridge shot?

Matt Pacini

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I worked on a spot for a support group for people who suffer obsessive compulsive disorders like overeating.The fridge shot was motivated and justified,a woman opens the fridge and we see her look of guilt as she contemplates the food she's about to eat.Since we need to see her face,how else would you recommend that shot to have been done?