Question(s) about Super 8 Sound and Film

Dylan Moss · June 3, 2012

I'd like to preface by saying I've looked tirelessly for existing answers to what follows on these boards.

- I read a post by Pav Deep in which he/she said "All you need is a good camera, some Vision 2 stock, a directional microphone and a professional telecine" in reference to making a Super 8 film with substantial dialogue.

This is the thread: http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=41159&st=0www.cinematography.com/index.php?showforum=31

*My question is: He/She must be talking about using magnetically recorded sound on the film strip right? If so, where does one acquire sound film now that it doesn't exist? Is converting the magnetic sound strip to digital audio part of the telecine process in this case along with the film conversion? If he/she was talking about using a different means of audio recording, I'd love to know what it was.

Thank You,

Dylan Moss

Matt Stevens · June 3, 2012

Super8 film no longer has the strip to record sound. That era has long since passed so you will need to record your sound another way.

And blimp your camera for sure.

Pavan Deep · June 3, 2012

Hi

I have filmed a lot of dialogue pieces with Super 8; https://vimeo.com/3175593 . I haven't uploaded any films recently, but I have just finished filming a film about an interrview - a film I made to show [my students] how lip sync dialogue can be recorded with ease when using any Super 8 camera, I will upload the film in a few weeks. As has been pointed out Super 8 sound film is not available, but recording sound is not impossible, nor is it difficult. I record the sound seperately on a mini-disk recorder, the sound recording and the camera are not linked in any way, the sound from the mini disk will always run at the same speed, while the camera's speed will flunctuate [in longer scenes] especially if the camera is not crystal controlled - the sound is being recorded 'wild'. When the film is edited on computer the sound file is merged and synced with the picture, this is quite simple.

P

www.lightbreeze.co.uk

Dylan Moss · June 3, 2012

This helps me a lot, thank you. My only other question revolves around ISO. When I shoot using Kodak Vision 3 200T, how do I adjust for the difference in exposure? When using a native 40/160 ISO tungsten film, you already have to correct the automatic exposure reading when using the daylight filter right? So how does using 200 ISO film complicate things? I'd like to know how both of these factors influence f/stop settings.

David Nowak · June 4, 2012

Here's one option to help sync your sound. A frame-sync'd click track.

http://www.super8sync.com/super8sync/Shooting_Film.html

Richard Tuohy · June 4, 2012

This helps me a lot, thank you. My only other question revolves around ISO. When I shoot using Kodak Vision 3 200T, how do I adjust for the difference in exposure? When using a native 40/160 ISO tungsten film, you already have to correct the automatic exposure reading when using the daylight filter right? So how does using 200 ISO film complicate things? I'd like to know how both of these factors influence f/stop settings.

Its not quite clear what you are talking about here I am afraid Dylan. Some super 8 cameras were designed for either 40 or 160 asa film. These could be described as 'natively' 40 and 160 asa CAMERAS. But there is no such thing as a 40/160 asa film. A film might be either 40 or 160 asa (or any other speed) but not BOTH. So it is hard to know how to help.

However, we can say the following:

colour neg film has a wide exposure latitude, and is quite forgiving of exposure errors.

When inserted in a super 8 camera that is set to AUTO exposure, most super 8 cameras will give very nice results with vision 3 200t.

When exposing with a super 8 camera using an external light meter, you have to take both the shutter angle of the camera as well as the light loss due to the reflex viewfinder into account. This can total anything from half a stop to over two stops. Depends on the camera. Only way to find out is to do a test using reversal film. But simpler is to trust the camera's auto exposure and if you insist on using a hand held meter, calibrate the meter to the camera's auto exposure reading. That will get you to a perfectly useable ballpark for colour neg film (but not for reversal film!).

Yes, there is also the question of the cameras internal 85 filter. Ibelieve vision 3 200t has no filter notch, meaning it is intended that you would use an external 85 filter on the camera. I cannot confirm this however as I don't process colour neg super 8 so I don't know for sure how the new 200t cartridges are notched. If there is no notch, you will need to use an external filter for shooting in daylight.

cheers,

richard

Dylan Moss · June 4, 2012

I just looked and luckily it seems like Vision 3 does have a notch. I realize there's no 40 and 160 ISO film, I was just under the (possibly false) impression that shooting film with an ISO apart from these two values would require some kind of f/stop adjustment, or is this only really the case with reversal film? I like the lower cost of reversal but maybe it isn't as fitting for a beginner.

I wonder, would that syncing device work with a laptop as the recorder?

Edited June 4, 2012 by Dylan Moss

Pavan Deep · June 4, 2012

What camera/s are you using? From experience the Vision 3 200T will produce perfect results in almost all super 8 cameras that will auto expose it as 160, look on Vimeo and Youtube for examples, here is a friends film;

The vision stock is one of the easiest Super 8 stocks. Normally I use the cameras internal filter when using the 200T and have the filter setting on the camera to the 'sun'; sometimes I do use an external filter [number 85b] and have the camera filter switch to the 'bulb' setting.

I have found that the Ektachrome 100D colour reversal film can be a bit tricky, some cameras will under expose this by ½ stop while some expose it correctly, you need to test your camera first to find out. During your testing you need to try the backlight button [if your camera has one]. My Bauer cameras underexpose the film, but when I press the backlight button I get perfect results, some of my cameras expose the 100D perfectly without the need for backlight button, like the Canon 1014 XLS I used, it produced perfect results with the 100D. It's weird because I have a Minolta XL 64 and XL 84, the XL 64 under-exposes the film but when the backlight button is pressed I get perfect results, but with the XL 84 I get perfect results but when I press the backlight button the picture is over-exposed.

P

Will Montgomery · June 4, 2012

Just remember to use an old school clapper and record the sound of the clap and the visual of it on the camera. Always a good habit to have anyway. You just have to be mindful of what framerate you're shooting film at. Whenever possible shoot at 24 or 25fps. As long as your takes are short you should have no problem syncing up. Look for a Zoom H4n or similar digital audio recording device.

Dylan Moss · June 5, 2012

I'm using a Sankyo Xl-400, there is a button on the side that looks like a circle with short lines coming out from it, could that be the back-light button? I regards to sound, could a laptop with Sonar or another similar program work?

Will Montgomery · June 5, 2012

I'm using a Sankyo Xl-400, there is a button on the side that looks like a circle with short lines coming out from it, could that be the back-light button? I regards to sound, could a laptop with Sonar or another similar program work?

Anything that records audio will work including cassette tapes or directly to computer. You'll just have to sync it manually on your editing software.

Dylan Moss · June 5, 2012

Anything that records audio will work including cassette tapes or directly to computer. You'll just have to sync it manually on your editing software.

Thanks! So I think I'm close to being ready now, the only thing I'm still unsure of is how I'm going to get the Film onto my computer for editing/what the best editing route is for low-budget shorts. I emailed Cinelicious and they charge 600/hr for HD telecine with small formats, with an hour minimum. Is there a less expensive way to get a high quality digital conversion from the film to edit? Are there other editing options I don't know about?

I promise these are my final questions! ha ha

Edited June 5, 2012 by Dylan Moss

Will Montgomery · June 5, 2012

Thanks! So I think I'm close to being ready now, the only thing I'm still unsure of is how I'm going to get the Film onto my computer for editing/what the best editing route is for low-budget shorts. I emailed Cinelicious and they charge 600/hr for HD telecine with small formats, with an hour minimum. Is there a less expensive way to get a high quality digital conversion from the film to edit? Are there other editing options I don't know about?

I think that is their highest rate, I'm fairly sure they have a standby rate that is less which means you send them the film and they get to it when they get to it...usually less than two weeks.

There are plenty of great transfer houses out there, many of which sponsor this site like Cinelab, Pro8mm & Cinelicious.

Other companies worth checking out for Super 8:

All these can handle reversal or negative film, there are many more than can handle just reversal. Please add more to this post since I'm sure I'm missing some good ones.

Everyone is looking for work so you should be able to make a good deal.

Dylan Moss · June 7, 2012

Cinelab seems to be decently priced, it's too bad I'm on the west coast. I asked if about the Cinelicious price and they said they would do 500/hr for unsupervised standby, which still seems a bit expensive to me.

Tom Balfe · June 10, 2012

I'm using a Sankyo Xl-400, there is a button on the side that looks like a circle with short lines coming out from it, could that be the back-light button? I regards to sound, could a laptop with Sonar or another similar program work?

If it's like my Super CM 880 then the red button with the lines coming out of it is the backlit button. I don't know how much exposure it adds to the shot but I'm guessing one stop extra light.

Will Montgomery · June 11, 2012

Cinelab seems to be decently priced, it's too bad I'm on the west coast. I asked if about the Cinelicious price and they said they would do 500/hr for unsupervised standby, which still seems a bit expensive to me.

Cinelab is great, good work and good service.

If you are just testing it out, buy some Ektachrome 100D and send it to Dwayne's photo for processing and transfer. They can give you a file. The transfer is not all that great but it's extremely inexpensive and will give you an idea of how your camera is working.

Once you've actually shot, processed & transferred once with Dwayne's you can send your processed film to a higher-end place and see the difference. You'll know if it is worth it to you then.