Print Stocks

[Rodrigo Prieto]

I have been a bit frustrated when it comes to printing by the limited options offered by Kodak in terms of printing stocks. I have found that, especially when doing a DI, the normal Vision 2383 has weak, milky blacks. I much prefer the blacks offered by Vision Premier 2393 for DI since I can desaturate the colors if necessary, and play with the gamma to have softer contrast, but still deep blacks (if that is the intention). The problem is, of course, the cost. Even for "Alexander", it was impossible to convince the distributors to make all the prints with Premier! And then, when I finish a film through photochemical process (like I am doing now on "Brokeback Mountain"), the Premier is too saturated, and a bit too contrasty for the look we want. Still, I am not happy with the blacks of Vision 2383, so I have decided to print on Fuji 3513 DI, which has nice blacks, but some colors lack the saturation I would like (specifically the greens, and the film has many landscapes). I have heard that Agfa has a new printing stock that is pretty good (CP30), but I have not tested it. does anybody have comments on this stock? Also, does anybody know if Kodak is developing new print stocks? It seems to me that with the imminent advent of more Digital capture, the issue of printing stocks becomes more relevant.

 

Thanks!

[Jonathan Spear]

( :ph34r:

Whoa. Cooooooool.)

 

Man, I ~really~ wish I knew enough about film stocks to be able to participate in this thread.

 

:(

 

(21 GRAMS, AMORES PERROS + 25th HOUR KICKED ASS!!! ...especially Amores Perros :D :D :D )

Edited April 7, 2005 by TSM

[Dirk DeJonghe]

We use three stocks in our lab (excepting Kodak low-con and Fuji for special orders). They are the Kodak Vision , Kodak Premier and Agfa CP30. When a customer hesitates or asks our advice about which stock to use, we print a section of his film on all three stocks and show him the result as A, B and C.

 

The customer doesn't know which stock he is watching (this comes with experience) and makes a selection based upon look. In 90% of the cases the CP30 is the preferred stock. It sits nicely between the Vision and Premier in contrast and saturation. I think it is more stable in processing and printing.

 

The Vision is nice for high contrast originals where you have too much contrast to start with, Premier is for special effects, and the CP30 is just right for a look with just a little extra punch without overdoing it.

[Rodrigo Prieto]

Dear Dirk:

 

Thanks for your insights. I will test the CP30 (sounds like Star Wars) for the project I'm prepping. I am curious to hear if anyone from Kodak has something to say...

TSM: I am glad that you liked those films, thanks.

[John Pytlak RIP]

I am curious to hear if anyone from Kodak has something to say...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The preferred "look" of a print is quite subjective, and often depends on the project. Many factors influence the overall contrast and color saturation, especially when printing from a Digital Intermediate. Factors include the original cinematography and lighting, film processing variations, LUTs and creative decisions in making the digital intermediate, flare in the laser recorder, contrast of the film projection, etc. Unfortunately, the high volumes of film used in release printing preclude having more than a few "looks" of print film (Kodak currently has three: 2383, 2393, 2395).

 

Your comments are appreciated, and certainly will be considered as new products are developed.

[Alberto Larios-Saavedra]

Dear Dirk:

 

Thanks for your insights.  I will test the CP30 (sounds like Star Wars) for the project I'm prepping.  I am curious to hear if anyone from Kodak has something to say...

TSM:  I am glad that you liked those films, thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hola Rodrigo, no sabes la enorme y agradable sorpresa que nos das al participar en este foro (al menos para los que admiramos tu arte).

I've been trying to get information regarding the whole photographic and lighting process for "Amores Perros" and haven't been able to (I've done some searching on the web but no luck, and in the ASC archives I don't see anything). Do you know where I might be able to find it?

That film marked a new high (and inspiration) for Mexican and Latin American filmmaking. By the way, are you doing anything with Iñárritu anytime soon?

I liked your work in "Alexander" too (the infrared stuff was gutsy).

 

Saludos,

Edited April 7, 2005 by AL Saavedra

[Dominic Case]

especially when doing a DI, the normal Vision 2383 has weak, milky blacks

This has more to do with the DI than with the print stock. A properly calibrated and well exposed filmout from a proper DI should have the same range of tones and densities as a print from the original negative (there is no reason why it shouldn't).

[David Mullen ASC]

This has more to do with the DI than with the print stock.  A properly calibrated and well exposed filmout from a proper DI should have the same range of tones and densities as a print from the original negative (there is no reason why it shouldn't).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In theory, yes, but there is something about laser recorder transfers that seem to lack a certain depth to the blacks, a flattened, duller look similar to when you print from a dupe negative instead of the original negative. It's hard to explain; maybe its due to the gamma of intermediate stock or some lack of ability in a laser recorder to create absolute black unless a higher density is created and the image is printed "down." Or it could be related to the rounding off of information that comes from working in 2K.

 

Anyway, print stocks with a higher D-max like Fuji Hi-Con or Vision Premier seem to help restore some snap back to the laser recorded image being printed from an IN.

 

Perhaps it's time that Kodak created a print stock optimized for D.I.'s with a D-max somewhere between 2383 and 2393 -- AND SOLD AT THE SAME PRICE AS 2383 so filmmakers would get to use the print stock they want rather than have a studio tell them which to use.

 

I posted this elsewhere, but considering that the true cost of a mass-produced release print is something like $800/print, then printing on 2393 instead of 2383 only adds $80 to the cost of the print -- of course, that's an additional $160,000 if you strike 2000 prints...

[Travis Cline]

I was just talking with a Kodak rep this week and I asked her why Kodak doesn't make a wider selection of print stocks and she said DP's aren't interested, which I didn't quite believe. Leads me to believe Kodak does not know it would be helpful to cinematographers to have that option. Also, David is totally right about the cost. It's terrible to have basically one choice of print stock if your show is pretty low budget. Can ask of anyone, who is best to talk to about the Agfa CP30?

 

Thanks for the post

 

Travis

[Travis Cline]

Tambien quiero decir que 25th hour es fenomenal. los colores son increibles. Lo enseno a mi clase anoche. Gracias

 

travis

[John Pytlak RIP]

This has more to do with the DI than with the print stock.  A properly calibrated and well exposed filmout from a proper DI should have the same range of tones and densities as a print from the original negative (there is no reason why it shouldn't).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Athough some prefer using Kodak VISION Premier Color Print Film 2393 for productions that went through Digital Intermediate, I agree there is no inherent reason that 2383 should produce "weak, milky" blacks.

 

Things to check include whether the exposure of the duplicate negative in the film recorder was adequate. Low curve placement (underexposure) onto the intermediate film (2242) can result in loss of shadow detail and "milky" blacks. As mentioned before, any optical flare in the film recorder can also reduce contrast in the shadow areas.

 

If a Laboratory Aim Density (LAD) control film was carried through the Digital Intermediate process, the aim density of the gray LAD control patch on the 2242 duplicate negative should be at least 1.00 red, 1.45 green, and 1.55 blue Status M density. Some labs might use an even higher aim (e.g., 1.15 red, 1.60 green, 1.70 blue) for "richer" shadow densities. The darkest areas in the original scene should be visibly above the D-min of the duplicate negative film, with detail clearly visible in the shadows on the duplicate negative:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/....4.11.8.6&lc=en

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/....4.11.8.8&lc=en

[John Pytlak RIP]

I was just talking with a Kodak rep this week and I asked her why Kodak doesn't make a wider selection of print stocks and she said DP's aren't interested, which I didn't quite believe.  Leads me to believe Kodak does not know it would be helpful to cinematographers to have that option.  Travis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Academy honored Kodak for its development of Kodak VISION Premier Color Print Film 2393:

 

* 2002 SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL AWARD (Scientific and Engineering Award)

To DR. LESLIE GUTIERREZ, DIANE E. KESTNER, JAMES MERRILL and DAVID NIKLEWICZ for the design and development of the Kodak Vision Premier Color Print Film, 2393. This film stock provides filmmakers with enhanced color saturation, higher contrast and darker blacks, producing a bold, colorful 'look' on the theater screen. [plaque] 

 

Kodak was the first to recognize the need for additional "looks" in print stock, and currently has three different color print films available. Kodak has several recent patents specifically dealing with technology to offer various "looks" of color print film. Unfortunately, the number of different print films that can be offered is constrained by the logistics of providing millions/billions of feet to laboratories worldwide on very short notice. Each release print is typically about 10,000 feet of print film.

 

As far as cost, Kodak VISION Premier Color Print Film 2393 uses substantially more silver, couplers, gel, and other emulsion components, so the cost is proportionately (about 9 percent) higher than 2383.

[Max Jacoby]

We use three stocks in our lab (excepting Kodak low-con and Fuji for special orders). They are the Kodak Vision , Kodak Premier and Agfa CP30. When a customer hesitates or asks our advice about which stock to use, we print a section of his film on all three stocks and show him the result as A, B and C.

 

The customer doesn't know which stock he is watching (this comes with experience) and makes a selection based upon look. In 90% of the cases the CP30 is the preferred stock.

 

I saw such a test for my last film, only it was between the Agfa and the HighCon Fuji. We were looking for good blacks but not too saturated colors and the Agfa was much better than the Fuji. It had darker blacks, but also more detail in the shadow area. All in all a very nice stock.

[Sam Wells]

In theory, yes, but there is something about laser recorder transfers that seem to lack a certain depth to the blacks, a flattened, duller look similar to when you print from a dupe negative instead of the original negative.  It's hard to explain; maybe its due to the gamma of intermediate stock or some lack of ability in a laser recorder to create absolute black unless a higher density is created and the image is printed "down."  Or it could be related to the rounding off of information that comes from working in 2K.

 

Anyway, print stocks with a higher D-max like Fuji Hi-Con or Vision Premier seem to help restore some snap back to the laser recorded image being printed from an IN.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to agree with David here, in my experience. (Far less than his, but same observation).

 

 

I don't know the cause either but there are too many people who have seen this difference, it can't be dismissed.

 

-Sam

[John Pytlak RIP]

AFAIK, Kodak VISION Premier Color Print Film 2393 still offers the best blacks of any print film on the market, with a maximum density of over 5.0 (100,000:1):

 

[Sam Wells]

Hi Dirk and Max.

 

Have you looked at how CP30 (actually sounds more like a dolby processor :) handles what's sometimes referred to as a "Chinese red" ? I always thought this was one of the great strengths of the old AGFA reversal print stock 902/903. Kodak has always been more fire engine.

 

My test would be to print from a negative with a Ferrari and a Chinese or Japanese red lacquer cabinet in the same shot.

 

(Who wants to lend me a Ferrari ? :D )

 

-Sam

[John Pytlak RIP]

Hi Dirk and Max.

 

Have you looked at how  CP30 (actually sounds more like a dolby processor :) handles what's sometimes referred to as a "Chinese red" ?  I always thought this was one of the great strengths of the old AGFA reversal print stock 902/903. Kodak has always been more fire engine.

 

My test would be to print from a negative with a Ferrari and a Chinese or Japanese red lacquer cabinet in the same shot. 

 

(Who wants to lend me a Ferrari ? :D )

 

-Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The couplers (dyes) used in color print film are different than the dyes used in an old reversal film. Here are the spectral characteristics of Kodak VISION Premier Color Print Film 2393:

 

 

 

Whenever I've compared Kodak prints to others, I've generally felt the Kodak color reproduction was more natural, without over-enhancement or unnatural hue shifts.

[Sam Wells]

True but 902/903 bore a more than familial resemblence to other Agfa products, color wise.

 

I don't dispute for the most part. Nonetheless I think it would be an interesting test.

 

-Sam

 

OK lend me a fire engine, guess I'll have to settle........

[F Bulgarelli]

Hello there,

 

Has anyone had any experience going Deluxe's ACE, CCE route and testing different print stocks.

It seems like that Agfa stock is worth a try.

 

Any tips will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Francisco

[Dirk DeJonghe]

John,

 

you are quite right about the Kodak stocks giving very neutral and natural color reproduction especially flesh to neutral balance, difficult to achieve when starting with a Fuji negative.

 

However, it is good to have choices of looks. The world wouldn't be the same if Van Gogh would have painted his sunflowers in natural colors.

 

On the older Agfa stocks, prior to the CP20, I was not so happy with the reds, they tended to turn to orange, no deep reds possible even if you wanted. The current CP30 is so close to the Kodak look it could have been made in Rochester by someone who mixed half an emulsion of Vision with half an emulsion of Premier (just kidding of course but you get the idea).

[Rodrigo Prieto]

In theory, yes, but there is something about laser recorder transfers that seem to lack a certain depth to the blacks, a flattened, duller look similar to when you print from a dupe negative instead of the original negative.  It's hard to explain; maybe its due to the gamma of intermediate stock or some lack of ability in a laser recorder to create absolute black unless a higher density is created and the image is printed "down."  Or it could be related to the rounding off of information that comes from working in 2K.

 

Perhaps it's time that Kodak created a print stock optimized for D.I.'s with a D-max somewhere between 2383 and 2393 -- AND SOLD AT THE SAME PRICE AS 2383 so filmmakers would get to use the print stock they want rather than have a studio tell them which to use.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Amen! That is exactly what I think. Every movie I have shot in the last 5 years, I have tested printing stocks in different labs and DI companies (Efilm, Eclair) and came to the same conlusion.

 

John: Please mention this concern to the powers that be in Kodak, as I would like to print on Kodak if I am shooting Kodak negatives. Maybe, as you say, something in the DI is causing the problem I have perceived in the blacks on the 2383, but this doesn't happen on Premier or Fuji 3513 DI on the same film-out machine. I just don't like having to go through enormous amounts of politics and convincing to get a few prints on Premier, and then having the rest of the prints not to my satisfaction. It is quite frustrating!

[Sam Wells]

However, it is good to have choices of looks. The world wouldn't be the same if Van Gogh would have painted his sunflowers in natural colors.

 

On the older Agfa stocks, prior to the CP20, I was not so happy with the reds, they tended to turn to orange, no deep reds possible even if you wanted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kinda what I was saying more or less. Thanks Dirk, food for thought.

 

Dear Rodrigo, I have yet to meet a DP who did not express the same the same frustration.

 

-Sam