Premium Member Matthew W. Phillips Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 Also commercial viability is obviously very much at play. You just have weird ideas about that as I already said. I admit I have not cracked it. But either have you so it seems odd that you are commenting on it like you have. Truth is, you dont know how to any more than the rest of us that arent Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Richard, tone does not come out over the internet without emoticons. And the context which you said it, at the time, sounded like you were on the defensive so it made since that you actually meant this. I understood but then I'm also British so point taken! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I admit I have not cracked it. But either have you so it seems odd that you are commenting on it like you have. Truth is, you dont know how to any more than the rest of us that arent Richard. Oh god! I'm really sorry but you are misunderstanding again. I'm not saying I know exactly what will be a huge hit or something (well other than the next Marvel movie probably) what I'm saying is that there are things that are commercially viable outside of the mainstream ideas of what is commercially viable. I'm not sure what you think is commercially viable as you didn't define it, so I don't know what is going on in your head but certainly there can be commercially viable films made for smaller audiences. That's all I'm saying about that. I can't say too much more about it as I don't know what is in your head and wouldn't know how to try and start explaining if I did I suspect. As far as I don't know how to any more than the rest of us.... I'm not claiming to know "how to" and havn't said "how to". Not that I have any idea what kind of "how to" you are talking about! ;) In any case whatever kind of "how to" it is I havn't made any claims about knowing it in this thread. I don't think so anyway... I suppose I could be wrong tho...? Going to have to try harder with this telepathy business.... Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Wait is "how to" the magic secret to everything that I'm saying doesn't exist maybe? In which case I'm not only not claiming to know "how to" I'm actually claiming the "how to" is imaginary anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Matthew W. Phillips Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 Oh god! I'm really sorry but you are misunderstanding again. I'm not saying I know exactly what will be a huge hit or something (well other than the next Marvel movie probably) what I'm saying is that there are things that are commercially viable outside of the mainstream ideas of what is commercially viable. I'm not sure what you think is commercially viable as you didn't define it, so I don't know what is going on in your head but certainly there can be commercially viable films made for smaller audiences. That's all I'm saying about that. I can't say too much more about it as I don't know what is in your head and wouldn't know how to try and start explaining if I did I suspect. As far as I don't know how to any more than the rest of us.... I'm not claiming to know "how to" and havn't said "how to". Not that I have any idea what kind of "how to" you are talking about! ;) In any case whatever kind of "how to" it is I havn't made any claims about knowing it in this thread. I don't think so anyway... I suppose I could be wrong tho...? Going to have to try harder with this telepathy business.... Freya Freya, the argument has been made in this thread that the reason many indies do not succeed in getting any level of distribution is because their project does not have "commercial appeal" or whatever term was used. I did not begin this line of reasoning. I was only responding to it. Now you are stating that there are different types of commercial appeal. I agree. But the thing is, how can someone be sure if a project will have commercial appeal before it is created? People are sometimes fickle and do not know what they want until it is under their nose. So the idea of "commercial appeal" seems a bit dodgy in explaining the success of one indie over another...especially in the context of the niche markets that you describe. Perhaps Landon mentioned the topic first, if so, I should be addressing him and not you. Nonetheless, I do not think there is any significant list of attributes that all success indie films have...am I mistaken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Matthew W. Phillips Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 Wait is "how to" the magic secret to everything that I'm saying doesn't exist maybe? In which case I'm not only not claiming to know "how to" I'm actually claiming the "how to" is imaginary anyway. I am not saying there is a set of rules that guarantee success but I also do not believe it to be complete luck or randomness either. Let me ask you a question...if the world hit an imaginary reset button and all famous filmmakers were nobodies again, would they all rise to success again? I only ask your opinion of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 Common sense tells you that independent movies have more than a "zero" chance of distribution, otherwise there would never be any independent films on the market, they'd only exist in film festivals or just dumped onto the Internet by the filmmaker. I think there's a need to clarify what's meant the term independent movie in this context. In LA, where I have recently been, and where I watched it happening, an independent movie might still have a multi-million dollar budget. Outside that arena, we tend to be lucky if there's a multi-thousand dollar budget. At that level, yes, it's quite normal for films to only exist in film festivals or dumped onto the internet by the filmmaker. Were I to make a feature-length production tomorrow, which I possibly could, I would expect and aim for no other end. There can be no other end. Dark Reprieve presumably wasn't a multi-million dollar budget and didn't have any well-known actors. It was sold anyway. That's the difference. I'm not here to sledge Richard for being unwilling to discuss the details, that's absolutely fair enough as part of normal business confidentiality, but we should all be aware that this is a vanishingly rare occurrence that probably happens once every ten years, worldwide. In essence, he's pulled off the Rodriguez Gambit, and I mean to take nothing away from Richard when I say that it relies on either special contacts or an absolutely staggering amount of luck. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 (edited) I am not saying there is a set of rules that guarantee success but I also do not believe it to be complete luck or randomness either. Let me ask you a question...if the world hit an imaginary reset button and all famous filmmakers were nobodies again, would they all rise to success again? I only ask your opinion of the matter. Definitely not. I mean they could get hit by a car or anything, and they would all be older and the world would be in a different place. I think the answer to that is clearly no for so many reasons. Also most of the famous filmmakers didn't start out as nobodies so they would be extra stuffed than before too. Edited May 13, 2016 by Freya Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 or an absolutely staggering amount of luck. P Well it was pretty lucky that my wife hired a gardener here in Horseshoe Valley Ontario who happened to be an ex DOP and gave me a couple of very valuable contacts, you've heard the story before. But....there was a movie to sell in the first place..... R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Maybe I should just write that book and get it over with? I' sure Phil and Matthew will attend the book signing :D BTW Matthew, does this mean you won't be buying the special, Dark Reprieve 10th Anniversary Edition? R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 At that level, yes, it's quite normal for films to only exist in film festivals or dumped onto the internet by the filmmaker. Were I to make a feature-length production tomorrow, which I possibly could, I would expect and aim for no other end. There can be no other end. Once again Phil you are talking about "feature length production" like it is butter that can be sold by weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Matthew W. Phillips Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 Maybe I should just write that book and get it over with? I' sure Phil and Matthew will attend the book signing :D BTW Matthew, does this mean you won't be buying the special, Dark Reprieve 10th Anniversary Edition? R, I would buy your book, yes. Dark Reprieve 10th anniversary better have some good special features though. ;) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Dark Reprieve presumably wasn't a multi-million dollar budget and didn't have any well-known actors. It was sold anyway. That's the difference. I'm not here to sledge Richard for being unwilling to discuss the details, that's absolutely fair enough as part of normal business confidentiality, but we should all be aware that this is a vanishingly rare occurrence that probably happens once every ten years, worldwide. In essence, he's pulled off the Rodriguez Gambit, and I mean to take nothing away from Richard when I say that it relies on either special contacts or an absolutely staggering amount of luck. P The horror genre doesn't always have well-known actors. It's different in that way. Also Dark Reprieve did not sell to a huge studio, it sold to a very small distributor that does direct to DVD: http://www.us.rljentertainment.com/image-entertainment We also obviously have no details on what form the deal was. As I've said before I know people who have sold their first movie without a third party involvement to a much larger and well known distributor but the devil is in the details and getting from there to making the next movie can be really difficult. There wasn't any magic word or anything tho. Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Matthew W. Phillips Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 There wasn't any magic word or anything tho. Freya Why are you assuming that anyone thinks there is a magic word? Maybe, for all we know, Richard is friends with someone who is friends with someone else. Networking and being fortunate enough to encounter someone has led to many good careers in other fields. It just doesnt make for as good of a public interest story to say you got a break because you happen to have married someone whose brother installed toilets in a B-Distributor's bathrooms. That was intentional sarcasm btw but the example isnt the oddest I have heard about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Freya, the argument has been made in this thread that the reason many indies do not succeed in getting any level of distribution is because their project does not have "commercial appeal" or whatever term was used. I did not begin this line of reasoning. I was only responding to it. Now you are stating that there are different types of commercial appeal. I agree. But the thing is, how can someone be sure if a project will have commercial appeal before it is created? People are sometimes fickle and do not know what they want until it is under their nose. So the idea of "commercial appeal" seems a bit dodgy in explaining the success of one indie over another...especially in the context of the niche markets that you describe. Perhaps Landon mentioned the topic first, if so, I should be addressing him and not you. Nonetheless, I do not think there is any significant list of attributes that all success indie films have...am I mistaken? Yeah I didn't get into "commercial appeal" as it's a bit of an odd turn of phrase. I'm assuming it means something that there is a market for. There is a problem in the questions you ask me here because you talk about "the success of one indie over another" as if they are interchangeable and you can just make a movie and go and sell it which might be possible or not but they are not all the same like butter or something. There is a difference for instance between a genre movie and an unspecific drama of some kind. I do not think there is any significant list of attributes that all success indie films have no because again indie films is a very vague description. It can be the very best indie movie, really well made and still sit unsold because it's not easy to sell. There is a difference between a documentary about the casting process of garden gnomes and a horror movie for example. Yet everyone here keeps talking like it's all the same stuff. Like you just make this feature length thing and sell it by the minute or something. It's not uncommon for a distributor to release only certain kinds of movies for example. Is there a distributor out there that releases movies like the one you are making or does it not fit their remit? One mistake people make is to think about things in terms of audiences but if you are looking for distribution then this is less your concern. If you are self-releasing then fine. The British film funding bodies are big on audiences at the moment for instance but if you want to sell to a distributor then you need to think more about what they want because they are your customer. You are better talking to them and asking them what kind of things they want. However you might not be happy with the answers you get back... Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Why are you assuming that anyone thinks there is a magic word? Maybe, for all we know, Richard is friends with someone who is friends with someone else. Networking and being fortunate enough to encounter someone has led to many good careers in other fields. It just doesnt make for as good of a public interest story to say you got a break because you happen to have married someone whose brother installed toilets in a B-Distributor's bathrooms. That was intentional sarcasm btw but the example isnt the oddest I have heard about. It's a metaphor. Wouldn't have to be an actual magic word that's very literal. I explained what I meant further back in the thread but again briefly people are asking about some vague undefined thing, the secret to everything across all 4 releases but I'm arguing that there isn't one magic thing that covers all these situations and makes them work. A lot of it will be the progression and building on earlier success. I compared it to having a magic word. It's just an idea to fill in for the undefined "secret thing" that people keep asking about. Even if there is some contact that has helped Richard get started then this isn't a magic thing that covers all 4 releases. I hope that's clear I don't want to repeat everything I already wrote in this thread... sorry! Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Matthew W. Phillips Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 Even if there is some contact that has helped Richard get started then this isn't a magic thing that covers all 4 releases. Freya Hah. But I think this initial release means more than you are letting on. There is a world of difference from saying you had distribution on your first film than there is coming in empty handed. I think we are seeing things differently because you sound like you view success in this context as linear while I am viewing it as factorial or at least exponential in the inverse sense. For example, I do not think that the second release is as hard as the first, etc. Getting your foot in the door seems to be, by far, the hardest aspect of this whole thing. And that is what Richard did (albeit direct to DVD but still a good turn.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 The British film funding bodies are big on audiences at the moment for instance Who's left? I thought UKFC got shut down? If British film funders are still around...I am setting up a meeting. Not even kidding. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 (edited) I think we are seeing things differently because you sound like you view success in this context as linear while I am viewing it as factorial or at least exponential in the inverse sense. For example, I do not think that the second release is as hard as the first, etc. Getting your foot in the door seems to be, by far, the hardest aspect of this whole thing. And that is what Richard did (albeit direct to DVD but still a good turn.) Actually that's EXACTLY what I am saying. Yes getting a good start is important in everything but meeting some people in a toilet and them helping you get DVD distribution is one thing. It's unlikely to be the same magic answer as to why it's possible to sell the same movie to two broadcasters in the same country at the same time etc etc (see start of thread). What I'm arguing is that it is this progression that allows this to happen with success building on success and not some magic single thing that is working at all stages. The only big thing I disagree with here is that getting your foot in the door is the hardest part as it continues to be difficult after that first release sadly but the more you do the more of a track record you have for sure. Edited May 13, 2016 by Freya Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Who's left? I thought UKFC got shut down? If British film funders are still around...I am setting up a meeting. Not even kidding. R, Go for it! There is film London but you need to be a London resident. There are what's left of the regional screen agencies and there is creative England I think? Not sure I have that all right. There are some catches however. You need to have a team where there are different writers producers and directors (these can't be the same person). Also some of these key members need to be from the minorities list. I was actually told not to bother unless some of these key people were BAME but I have since seen groups of people who are mostly the usual posh white folks from shoreditch or whatever get chosen with only very token BAME representation so I may have been misled on that. The BFI originally had a much wider list than just BAME so who knows what's going on with that. There are other restrictions too that I can't remember off the top of my head but they may not be a problem for you as they were for me Richard as I think they were economic but I don't remember all the details. I keep coming across things, get excited for a short time, read the long details and eventually find there is a catch! Some of the stuff might be for first features only too I suspect but you will have to look into it. Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 It just doesnt make for as good of a public interest story to say you got a break because you happen to have married someone whose brother installed toilets in a B-Distributor's bathrooms. That was intentional sarcasm btw but the example isnt the oddest I have heard about. heh heh! I reckon that would make for a great story actually! ;) Yeah there is a lot of the thing with people knowing key people as I alluded to earlier when you asked me about the reset button. That's often a thing and being "good in a room" and all that is definitely important. This networking and sales ability is part of what I have alluded to throughout this thread. Hey Matthew I've started to understand we have a bit of a communication barrier which is going to be hard for me to break down, plus I have to go to bed soon too! ;) I hope some things I have said have been useful or thought provoking but like you said before I don't have any magic answer and I would argue that sadly there isn't one. It would be great if there was and we could find out what is was. Maybe by kidnapping Richard and tying him to a chair or something but I suspect it's all mundane every day stuff we are all familiar with for the most part. ...anyway hopefully I said something interesting or helpful along the way somewhere. Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 There are some catches however. You need to have a team where there are different writers producers and directors (these can't be the same person). Producer needs to have a track record too which is usually the major gotcha here because it generally means working with someone who already made a film with them (you can see where that is going...) this is why it tends to be the same kind of people making the films over and over. You already have a track record tho Richard which would be a huge advantage. Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Also some of these key members need to be from the minorities list. Really? That comes as a total shocker. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Oh also don't rule out Scotland. There is creatve Scotland too, I think that is the main one there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Matthew W. Phillips Posted May 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted May 13, 2016 Really? That comes as a total shocker. R, Is that British sarcasm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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