Lens recommendations for Super 16 Arriflex SRII w PL mount

[Kevin Roy]

7 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I'm wondering if this one might extend too far back into an Arri SR. It might be adapted from an old S mount lens.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/165241256518

 

No, there wouldn't be an issue as far as I can tell. The issue I would have is the field of view on a S16 camera. 

[Dom Jaeger]

57 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I'm wondering if this one might extend too far back into an Arri SR. It might be adapted from an old S mount lens.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/165241256518

 

That lens doesn't protrude back much at all behind the PL mount adapter, so it would be OK on an SR. (Whether it actually focusses to infinity is another question.) 

It's an adapted full frame stills lens for Contax/Contarax, though not sure what the original mount is in this case. Normally those can't be adapted to PL.

The Zeiss cine range is different, they are either T2.1 (Standard Speeds for 35mm) or T1.3/1.4 (Super Speeds for 16mm and 35mm). Note the aperture for cine lenses is usually marked in T stops, not f stops. An aperture of f/2.8 is pretty slow compared to many 16mm format lenses. 

Be careful of these sellers, there is an identical listing for a different amount:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165241256518?hash=item2679257a46:g:xuAAAOSwoNVhvwxx

 

46 minutes ago, Kevin Roy said:

No, there wouldn't be an issue as far as I can tell. The issue I would have is the field of view on a S16 camera. 

Why would it be an issue? The field of view will be the same as any 25mm lens on S16. It's a "normal" focal length, neither wide nor long, pretty common for S16. The image circle of that particular lens will be a lot larger than needed for S16, that's all.

[Jon O'Brien]

Thanks again Dom for all your extremely helpful advice. I ended up choosing a Tokina 11-16 T3 DX lens in PL mount. Further down the track I hope one day to get a Zeiss T1.3 25mm or similar. Currently for lower-light situations I have the Rex-5 with an f1.1 26mm macro switar that is in really great condition. The first one of these I bought on ebay had serious problems, but I returned it and the seller replaced it with a much better one of the same model.

[Kevin Roy]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:57 PM, Dom Jaeger said:

Why would it be an issue? The field of view will be the same as any 25mm lens on S16. It's a "normal" focal length, neither wide nor long, pretty common for S16. The image circle of that particular lens will be a lot larger than needed for S16, that's all.

 

On 1/23/2022 at 6:57 PM, Dom Jaeger said:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165241256518?hash=item2679257a46:g:xuAAAOSwoNVhvwxx

 

Why would it be an issue? The field of view will be the same as any 25mm lens on S16. It's a "normal" focal length, neither wide nor long, pretty common for S16. The image circle of that particular lens will be a lot larger than needed for S16, that's all.

Yeah, the focal length is the same no matter. My conclusion from the eBay listing that this was a lens built to cover 35mm, not S16, therefore narrowing the field of view when used on a S16 camera, similar to the issue that occurs with the Tokina zooms that I mentioned, built to cover S35.

[Jefta Varwijk]

just here to appreciate the conversation, learning alot. thanks.

[Jon O'Brien]

I'm learning a lot too Jefta. Glad to know this information is really helpful to others!

The Tokina 11-16 T3 has arrived, and yes it definitely fits underneath the viewfinder on an ArriSR1. The gear ring for the aperture only just fits, on my camera, with a few millimetres to spare in the area recessed into the camera front. So, all good there.

However, there's only one notch in the PL mount, that fits over the pin on the camera. When mounted on the camera, the focus and other marks are on the right hand side. I was assuming that the lens would be mountable with the markings on either side. I wonder why Tokina omitted the other notches. The marks can be transferred to a piece of tape on the other side.

[Kevin Roy]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:57 PM, Dom Jaeger said:

That lens doesn't protrude back much at all behind the PL mount adapter, so it would be OK on an SR. (Whether it actually focusses to infinity is another question.) 

It's an adapted full frame stills lens for Contax/Contarax, though not sure what the original mount is in this case. Normally those can't be adapted to PL.

The Zeiss cine range is different, they are either T2.1 (Standard Speeds for 35mm) or T1.3/1.4 (Super Speeds for 16mm and 35mm). Note the aperture for cine lenses is usually marked in T stops, not f stops. An aperture of f/2.8 is pretty slow compared to many 16mm format lenses. 

Be careful of these sellers, there is an identical listing for a different amount:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165241256518?hash=item2679257a46:g:xuAAAOSwoNVhvwxx

 

Why would it be an issue? The field of view will be the same as any 25mm lens on S16. It's a "normal" focal length, neither wide nor long, pretty common for S16. The image circle of that particular lens will be a lot larger than needed for S16, that's all.

 

1 hour ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I'm learning a lot too Jefta. Glad to know this information is really helpful to others!

The Tokina 11-16 T3 has arrived, and yes it definitely fits underneath the viewfinder on an ArriSR1. The gear ring for the aperture only just fits, on my camera, with a few millimetres to spare in the area recessed into the camera front. So, all good there.

However, there's only one notch in the PL mount, that fits over the pin on the camera. When mounted on the camera, the focus and other marks are on the right hand side. I was assuming that the lens would be mountable with the markings on either side. I wonder why Tokina omitted the other notches. The marks can be transferred to a piece of tape on the other side.

I believe that lens is a Duclos conversion correct, which may account for the installation of the PL mount as it is? Guessing, but it may have been fitted to a particular camera that had all the functions on the right side, for an assistant. Wasn't there a Blackmagic camera that you would access all the functionality on the right side of the camera body? At any rate, you should be able to take it to a lens tech to position the mount so the witness marks where you want, I'm thinking. 

[Jon O'Brien]

The one I have was actually entirely made by Tokina. They got into the cine-modification themselves after seeing others do it. But the lens has now been discontinued. It looks like it's been replaced with the 11-20, which I'm still not sure will fit on my camera. My camera is modified and may have a slightly different front to an unmodified SR1. I'd like to know the exact diameters of the aperture and zoom geared rings on the 11-20. I've asked CR Kennedy in Australia to contact Tokina for these measurements.

Regarding getting a lens tech to move the PL mount around, on the back of the lens, I've looked at the screws and they're not equi-distant. It looks to me that it wouldn't be possible to rotate the mount 180 degrees.

[Kevin Roy]

27 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

The one I have was actually entirely made by Tokina. They got into the cine-modification themselves after seeing others do it. But the lens has now been discontinued. It looks like it's been replaced with the 11-20, which I'm still not sure will fit on my camera. My camera is modified and may have a slightly different front to an unmodified SR1. I'd like to know the exact diameters of the aperture and zoom geared rings on the 11-20. I've asked CR Kennedy in Australia to contact Tokina for these measurements.

Regarding getting a lens tech to move the PL mount around, on the back of the lens, I've looked at the screws and they're not equi-distant. It looks to me that it wouldn't be possible to rotate the mount 180 degrees.

Thanks for the info. Interesting. And then the marks on the rings would still be upside down, if I have the spatial orientations correct in my mind. I'm not sure how much it would cost but a lens tech might be able to machine some notches, and/or it might be easier to get the new holes drilled in PL mount, 180 degrees from where they are now. Though certainly an expense would be incurred. As a one man show, I'm looking mostly at the T-stops anyway, but still it would probably drive me a little nutty looking on the wrong side by habit.  

[Jon O'Brien]

I've got the handgrip on the right hand side and have been using the camera on my right shoulder, with the viewfinder on the left. I use both a hand held lightmeter and the onboard light meter on the SR that still works. If using a hand held lightmeter in my left hand it's a fairly quick and easy thing to see the lens markings if they're on the left side. Otherwise, with the marks on the RHS, I have to put the meter back in its pouch, quickly take the camera off my shoulder and cradle it in the crook of my left arm so I can read the lens settings. That's a diagonal movement across the body which adds a tiny fraction of time and effort between shots. I get philosophical and realise that few things are ever perfect in real film filmmaking. You have to learn to accept compromises. I'm hoping the onboard TTL meter keeps working fine, though I will still need to check the focus marks. Or transfer the lens marks to the left side with thin pieces of gaffer tape. However, there's almost no room for tape, for the aperture settings. The tape would have to be a very narrow strip, and taped to the geared ring. It's not ideal but it will do the job. The other option is to ask someone to drill a hole in the opposite flange on the back of the lens.

[Dom Jaeger]

Sounds like a screw-up if the marks are only visible on the right side. It should look like this, with marks on the left (the PL flange notch should be on the same side):

https://dragonimage.com.au/products/tokina-11-16-t3-dx-pl-cine-lens

Not sure how it could be reversed if you say the screw holes are not symmetrical.

[Jon O'Brien]

It's frustrating. No one seems to know what's what with this lens, so as usual I have to figure out everything myself. I've looked at lots of pictures and videos online and this lens seems to have been made with markings on either left or right side. Because it's a discontinued product I'm inclined to just keep the lens and put up with it. If I send it back it could be months (or longer) before a lens with marking on the left side can be found. Tokina should have put a notch on the other side. One good thing is that I did get the lens for a good price.

[Dom Jaeger]

Yes it seems crazy that they didn't just have two notches rather than left or right versions.

It wouldn't be hard to have a notch machined in the opposite PL mount flange. You could probably remove the mount and file a notch yourself. It needs to be 3mm wide, just remove any burrs. Doesn't matter if it's not perfectly centred in the flange.

[Jon O'Brien]

I've just realised the lens mount on the SR1 is upside down. The pin on the lens mount is in approximately the 7.30 (o'clock) position instead of the 1.30 position. This is the first PL mount camera I've used. I actually had not all that long ago a Pan-Arri IIC that had a PV mount on it. Thus, a mounting pin on the bottom part of the lens mount looked fine to me. I haven't a clue why the camera mount is upside down. The camera is great otherwise. It works fine. Now I have to figure out whether to get the lens mount rotated. It looks doable to me. Well, .... at least the mystery has been solved!

[Jon O'Brien]

Would 180 degree lens mount rotation on the camera require collimation, along with the lenses used with that camera? I'd say it would.

[Dom Jaeger]

Arri PL mounts were designed so that you can switch between standard and super by rotating them 180 degrees. Does your mount have any markings top right or bottom left? The format it’s set to should be top right.

When you rotate the mount, the locating pin gets removed and screwed into the opposite side. Usually use a 1.5mm hex driver.

 

[Jon O'Brien]

Yes, it does have a switchable lens mount! I didn't know they spin around 180 degrees. It says S16 in the top right, so must be set to Super 16. However there's no hole for a locating pin in the top right of the mount. In the bottom left there is N16 is etched there. Also, the locating pin in the bottom left doesn't seem to be removable.

Since I want to shoot S16 there seems to be two choices: accept the lens as it is, or file a new notch. The other PL lens I currently have, the 8-64, has two notches so no problems there. I suppose a new pin could be machined and fitted to the camera mount, and the old one removed, but it would be simpler to just modify the lens slightly. It's a pity about the pin not being removable in this case (that I can see). It looks like an extremely well made, expertly-machined lens mount.

[Dom Jaeger]

It doesn't make sense that someone would make a switchable PL mount without the facility to move the locating pin. Are you sure there is no hole, perhaps it's been filled in? Got a photo?

If not then I think it would be best to have a new hole drilled for the pin, in case future lenses you wanted to use only have one notch too. A competent machinist could do it very quickly.

[Jon O'Brien]

Sure, I will post a photo or two tomorrow.

[Jon O'Brien]

Here are some pics. Let me know Dom if you'd like me to email you higher definition photos. On looking closely at the notch in the rear of the lens I see that it's not a simple job to file it out. Although definition is a bit poor hopefully you can see the small ledge or step in the notch. It would need machining.

[Dom Jaeger]

Yeah I’d just take the mount off the camera and pay a machinist to drill a hole exactly 180 degrees to the other one and refit the pin.

If you can’t find anyone local PM me. 

Did the camera come with any warranty/service history? Have you shot a test and checked all the functions? 

[Jon O'Brien]

Yes I think having a pin fitted is the way to go. I've film tested this camera and am very pleased with it. All looks great and the camera is in wonderful condition. The three mags are in excellent condition too. It was modified to S16 by PE Denz in Munich and has had one owner before me, a well-known German DoP. I will PM you Dom.

[Samuel Preston]

Hello all, learned lots reading this thread. 

Just wanted to ask if anyone has any sample footage of an sr with a tokina zoom? I’m considering getting one for my sr3 and i’m not a big fan of the older very long cine zooms, especially at the prices they’re going for now. 

Heard a few bad things about the tiki as resolving power on s16 so would love to hear what people have to say after hopefully having shot lots with their lenses!