Jim Carlile

Let me correct something-- I just checked, and the 350SL will not read 100D correctly. Nor will any of the other Elmo sound cameras. The reason for this is that they are "XL" cameras designed to read the old Ektachrome 'G' film, which is no longer available. That film was a required part of the XL designation. What Kodak did with 'G' film specifically was tweak the chemistry so it could be used both indoors and outdoors without an 85 filter, and at ASA 160. It was their flagship low-light product that was both daylight and tungsten at the same time. But here's the problem. What they did was pack it in a notchless "daylight" cartridge so that the internal 85 filter would be automatically pulled out because it wasn't necessary. Since according to the SMPTE protocol a notchless cartridge would set light meters to the lower ASA of the speed indice, this meant that an ASA 160 daylight film had to be notched for ASA 250T/160D, which is the next size up. If they had speed-notched it at ASA 160T/100D then their notchless "daylight" cartridge would have automatically set meters to 100. But some cameras wouldn't read over ASA 160 to begin with. So instead of completely redesigning their exposure meters to comply with the new XL 'G' film, what these manufacturers did instead was just disable the SMPTE filter-notch system so that their cameras would read only the high ASA of each separate speed indice. Because the Elmos would read the ASA 250 or higher notches as just plain ASA 160, that's how the new 'G' film would work in them. In other words, the Elmos can't accurately read "daylight" film packed in daylight cartridges. They're not alone, either, as that method became the norm for most sound cameras. And obviously, this non-conventional notch reading method has caused lots of complications over the years. But who knew in the old days that this would be a problem-- because there were no daylight films in super 8! So in a nutshell, the sound Elmos will read V200T at ASA 160, not 100; Tri-X at ASA 160 (it's notched at ASA 250 with the notchless cartridge kick-down); the new Plus-X at ASA 160 (underexposed); and the new 100D underexposed at ASA 160 as well. None of this is a real predicament, but it's something to know about ahead of time.

Great update. That's funny about the 200T overexposure confusion. What was the general consensus at the end? I'm a reversal guy, but the last time I saw a cartridge of 200T negative film it was notched just like the new Plus-X, which was the 160T/100D speed indice in a notchless cartridge. This would set camera meters for ASA 100 without the internal 85 possible. This agreed with what John Pytlak said was the protocol for that film, and that Kodak deliberatey set it up for a one-stop overexposure and no reliance upon an old, internal 85 filter. If you wanted an 85 then you would put a good one over the lens. Most opinion is that with negative film you want some degree of overexposure. That way you get a denser negative and have more to work with. There's no ASA 200 speed indice in Super 8, so Kodak had to compromise. The workaround is to cut a filter notch in each cartridge-- that way you can get an ASA 160 reading and the ability to toggle in the camera's own 85. This would probably explain why Kodak didn't notch the film at ASA 250T/160D in a notchless cartridge, which would set the meter to ASA 160 instead of 100. That would have worked well with only a 1/3 stop overexposure, but if they had done it that way instead, then cutting a filter notch for your 85 would have set the meter to ASA 250, which would cause underexposure. Unfortunately, reversal film doesn't work this way. Overexposing reversal film gives you less to work with, not more, because it's a thin positive image that you end up with. Underexposure is worse, because you get a blocky positive that has even less information due to all the negative image that was bleached away after the first processing step. This is one reason why pros don't use reversal any more unless they want a special look. You get contrast and saturation but no control and little room in the lab to tweak anything.

You got it right, Art. If Kodak is notching this new film according to the SMPTE protocol then that's how it works. They speed-notch it at the ASA 160 indice (it's actually 160T/100D), and then they use the notchless cartridge (with no lower filter notch) to set the meter to ASA 100 with the 85 filter retracted for daylight film, because it doesn't need it. The 350SL will read 100D accurately. But there's an easy way to test it, and this method can be used with any S8 camera. Just aim somewhere without film and check the ASA reading. Then open the cartridge door and press in the filter pin at the bottom-- sometimes it looks like a little hook. If when you do this the aperture opens up a little bit-- meaning the needle moves to a smaller number-- then that means the meter is adjusting for the difference in the lower ASA. Some later cameras will register no change, and others will not even have a filter pin at all. In this case they will not read the film correctly, although this might not matter too much-- it's only a 2/3 stop difference in film speed. Many camera will also allow manual metering, in which case you can use the auto as a guide and then manually tweak the aperture open that extra 2/3 stop.

There will be a slight magenta shift and the image will be a bit washed out. Why don't you send in one roll as a test, at normal development? I think it will be fine. Or you can ask Dwayne's what they think....

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Interesting-- that's an unusual feature. What it means is that you can keep the key in for regular shooting at ASA 100D, and then take it out for backlight compensation, because it will reset the meter to ASA 64 because of the notchless cartridge with the filter still out, but open up about 2/3 stop more for your backlit subject. Cool. Most later cameras will do nothing when you toggle the filter switch back and forth with a notchless cartridge-- which is probably good, because otherwise if it reset to the higher tungsten ASA at the 'daylight' position then the exposure would be off. It would be a common error with daylight film.

I don't think the problem is the exposure, it's the curve, the gamma. Reversal by nature is steeper and it's going to drop off. Night shots are always tricky with reversal. Stick with the negative and a lab that knows how to do it-- since your only choice is Double-X now, realistically. If you had lots of time and money you could do tests with the lab and try to place the exposure on the best part of the curve for the optimum results in that shooting situation with different development times and developers, but absent that, go negative. That way you can overexpose it a little for a thinner negative and better transfer results. You'll get more detail. Reversal can't be played this way-- it doesn't work the same.

What do you do with the Plus-X cartridge in the M4? Just use it straight, or cut a filter notch in it? In theory, no notch means it will read at ASA 64, which would overexpose it by 2/3 stop. That's Ok. Tri-X should be way overexposed too. So yeah, if you put ND filters in front of the lens only it might turn out well with either one. The M2 has no meter so it can run anything, ND or not. It's manual setting all the way. Both cameras are fantastic and you really can't go wrong with them. They're seriously underrated.

Will the M4 read 100D? It very well may-- it's hard to tell on that camera because there are no f/stops to spot a change. Normally what happens is that the notchless cartridge of the new 100D will cancel out the filter and set the meter to ASA 64 no matter what. But you might be able to override that with the key-- normally the key pulls out the filter, which the notchless cartridge has already done. Maybe it also resets the meter to 100. But just to be sure, I'd cut a filter notch in the cartridge so it does not set the meter to the SMPTE speed-indice rating of 64, and then pull the filter out with the key. Otherwise you'll probably get the SMPTE protocol of 100T/64D. I know for Plus-X, all you have to do is cut a filter notch, and the camera will read it as 100T with the 85 filter in place, which makes no difference to B/W film.

Why would you rate it at ASA 25? Kodachrome Super 8 is ASA 40. Even outdoors it only acts as ASA 25 with an 85 filter, but it's still rated at 40 as far as the meter is concerned. It's a 40 film no matter how you use it. So, you're only one-stop underexposed. That'll be OK-- but if you want, Dwayne's can push it a stop for an extra $20. What's your subject matter?

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Hi Art, That makes sense-- but it also means their new data sheet is totally wrong, and another source of confusion! The SMPTE protocol for daylight 100 ASA super 8 is to speed-notch it at the 160T/100D indice, and then use a notchless cartridge to key it down to the 100 without any possibility of using the internal 85 filter. The cartridge pushes in the filter pin, which both disables the filter permanently and also sets the meter to the lower ASA rating for that particular speed-notch size. I'm really glad Kodak is doing it this way-- Wittner supposedly speed-notches it at 100T/64D, which makes it easy to spoil a roll by accidentally leaving in the filter. On some cameras, too, toggling the filter switch to daylight will also set the meter to the lower ASA, which would be 64. Kodak doesn't supply empty cartridges in notchless form, so maybe the other companies have no choice but to do it this way. But it sure creates a hassle. Also, many more cameras will do the 160T/100D thing than will read the unusual 100T speed indice-- which was used only once in the past, I believe, by Ansco, and only for a year or so back in the late 60s. By the way, Kodak was originally planning their first S8 high-speed film to be 100ASA, but they later changed their mind and made it 160-- which is the reason why their entry M4 camera will read both 40 and 100. So in the end, any SMPTE compliant camera that will read the new Plus-X correctly will also be able to read E100D without any problem. That's good to know-- thanks for being in the vanguard here!

Looks good. How is Kodak notching that film? Is it in a notchless cartridge? It should be just like Plus-X. But their tip sheet here is full of inaccuracies: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/CIS287.pdf It suggests that it will be notched as 100T, where you have to remove the filter yourself. That would be disastrous, and most cameras will not read this speed indice, either. Removing the filter will also lower the ASA by 2/3 stop. Better that it be notched at 160T/100D, with a notchless cartridge to knock it down to the lower ASA.

For sure Tri-X and V200 negative, but Plus-X and E100 might be 2/3 stop underexposed. Suspect that that camera will not read 100ASA daylight-- which is triggered by the notchless cartridge and the 160T/100D speed indice. Will set the meter to ASA160 instead and just retract the internal 85 filter.

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Ikonoscop A-cam 16? Looks kind of like it. Don't they still shoot in 16, too?

It's a little incomplete right now, and presumes that Kodak will notch this at ASA 160T/100D with a notchless cartridge-- just like Plus-X-- which they probably will, though that differs from the other 100Ds out there right now. Basically, any camera that will set its meter at the lower ASA of the speed indice with the filter pin pushed in, and will read as high as ASA 160, will be able to read 100D accurately. The way you test is to just push your filter pin in and see if the exposure setting opens up a little, about 2/3 of a stop. If it does then your OK.

Anyone want to start a list of which cameras will run the new Ektachrome 100D stock? It might be easier than trying to figure out the mechanics of the process. Basically it will be any camera that is SMPTE compliant and will rate to at least ASA 160. I suspect the notching will be identical to the newer Plus-X.

The 50-foot cartridge limits any S8 camera's ability to backwind. The 200-footer allowed unlimited backwinding, but the only camera that could do this was the Nizo 6080. All the other cameras had limited backwind and as part of the dissolve feature only. If the 1014E limits you to a one-time backwind, try either turning it off between multiple exposures or removing the batteries. That should clear any restrictions. BTW, the silent 1014s have all sorts of undocumented features-- more than the sound version.

Did anyone else catch this on TCM the other night, and were amazed at how incredible this movie looked? It was just so effortless looking. What film type was used, how did he get those effects-- those greens in particular-- and what more is known of this French cinematographer?

But there's no more Plus-X !! Tell him, "Nein!" "Nein!"

The 16mm stocks seem to be mostly odd pitches and perfs-- like 2-perf has taken a big hit, and so have 100 foot rolls and 1-roll minimum quantities. I wonder how many lab stocks will get hit-- last month they also discontinued 35mm high-contrast panchromatic-- which they probably sold, what, maybe 500 feet of in the last 10 years? Not much call for B/W 35mm titling film. Probably most of it went for still users. I suspect next it will be B/W release print stock on acetate-- the old 'positive' film --which most users buy to use as cheap camera film.

The super 8 sites are buzzing with the news that Kodak has just discontinued Plus-X reversal. But they're also quietly cutting Plus-X negative in both 16 and 35, and only keeping Double-X in both formats. Any comments from the pros on this? Plus-X was kind of a legendary old stock.

Yup, it's been confirmed. Here's the new discontinued list: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/PCN040710_Q.pdf Man, 100-foot rolls of 16 have taken a hit, too ! Well, that means so long, Plus-X reversal dream girl....

It's already on their web page-- nice bright box and everything: http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Produ...per_8/index.htm But egads-- look what's missing..... ! :( :blink: