Super-8 vs 16mm

Noah Teichner · January 20, 2005

I am a complete beginner looking to buy a film camera to experiment with and hopefully achieve a greater understanding of the medium. I was thinking of buying either a Nizo Super-8 camera or a 16mm Bolex or K-3 camera from Ebay.

I am going to finish up at community college and transfer to a school with a decent film program (probably SFSU). For now I am just looking to shoot silent short films mainly to learn and experiment with lighting, editing, and etc. I was kind of leaning towards 16mm because it seems it requires more of an understanding of the medium as opposed to just pointing and shooting.

I have about $1,300 dollars to spend on a camera, film, and processing for a few very short films (black and white to start with). There is someone in the family who has shot on both formats and worked in the industry for many years, he could help me along and get equipment (lights and etc) for me to use if needed. I live about 40 minutes away from Hollywood and go there quite often so there are obviously plenty of labs around to process film.

Before I go out and buy a camera I would like to hear some opinions on what would be a better format to use and what kind of cameras I should look into buying. Thanks!

Edited January 20, 2005 by Noah Teichner

Nate Downes · January 20, 2005

If you want to get to the nitty gritty, I'd even go lower-tech and get a Bell and Howell Filmo 70A 16mm camera. I bought one, and it forced me to really have to work at it. No automatic exposure meter, no external motor mount, no reflex viewing. Real old-school. Taught me a lot.

cineshooter · January 20, 2005

well, I had (still have somewhere) a K-3 and it came with a pretty descent lens (manual zoom something like 8-70mm, I'm guessing it's been a long time) the camera had a jamming issue and didn't always have a steady gate, got to the point where I could tell how it was running via the feel and sound, you can't do sync sound unless you modify the camera (which would have cost me more than the price of the camera), when i was in school we used super 8 rigs I never had much of a problem with those.....you can learn the basics of 'filmaking' with any motion camera including video, cut, composition, camera aqngles etc etc....as for learning about things like film stocks how they react, the gamma, lens perspective, well you could learn that with a 35mmSLR, (which you probably already have) a mentor would also be a good way to go ....you are young you could hook up with an AC, on a volunteer basis, and that would be an education in life and in film....you seem to be in a area full of industry professionals.....

Good luck,

JD

www.cineshooter.com

Fulgencio Martinez · January 22, 2005

GO FOR THE K3!

I have one i got for 200 and it works great.

You can later yourself do some easy modifications to it.

I have improved the film path and changed to s16(not the viewfinder)

I own an Eclair i got later but it is still a great camera for especial shots. (manual time lapse, risky places...)

Rik Andino · January 22, 2005

Buy the K3

The Bolex will suck your whole budget down

(although it is a better camera than the K3)

If you can afford it I would buy a Xtal Synch motor (about $500 smackaroos)

And change the gate to S16

Than you'd have an MOS Xtal Synch S16 camera

The K3 is the cheapest S16 camera around (under $1000)

The Bolex is a close second for around $2000.

As for Super 8...

Super 8mm is a difficult medium to work on

It's shoot or miss with it sometimes

The cameras aren't steady enough

And are a lot harder to repair.

People only use it for fun or for a SPECIFIC look.

Although I know there are alot of Pro S8 shooters out there

And the film stock is getting better

16mm is the best way to really learn.

If you're hellbent on S8

The best cameras to recommend are

The Canon 814 or 1014

Or The Nikon R8

Anyways good luck and remember life's a learning process

Keep at it and you'll get better

KARMA bums

K Borowski · January 22, 2005

I'd recommend either a DS8 camera, or a DR8 camera if you're interested in 8mm film. There is no shakiness issues because there is no shitty film cartridge. The film can also be processed as if it were 16mm if you shoot only the 100 foot lengths, which saves a lot of money. I shoot a lot of DR8 in addition to 16mm because of the cost advantage. It's probably the CHEAPEST movie film available and I can send it to the lab with my 16mm and they treat it with the same respect that they give to 16mm film.

Regards.

~Karl Borowski

Diana Whatley · January 23, 2005

It's true that the brand new Bolex stuff is pricey, but I just bought a perfectly functional Rex 3 with three decent primary lenses for under $600. So it doesn't have all the bells and whistles of some cameras (it is limited to the 100 ft. rolls and it isn't sync), but it's a good solid (and durable) camera...and if you're careful, you can shoot a lot with 100 ft! You said you wanted to work "silent," so there should be no problem with that. The Bolex is a good camera and a lot of fine movies have been made with Bolex through the years. Even the Rex 5 seems to be selling at reasonable prices and that takes a 400 mag. I've known a couple of film professors that wouldn't hand their beginning students anything other than a Bolex.

But I can only speak from my own experience....

Light & Peace,

Diana

Noah Teichner · January 31, 2005

Thanks for all the responses! Sorry I haven't got a chance to respond.

I think I am going to pick up a used Bolex with some accessories and lenses on Ebay. Though I'm not sure if I should get a Reflex model. Is the light loss on reflex cameras (seems to be 35% on a Bolex) a big problem, or is it easy to accommodate for? Could someone go over the advantages and disadvantages of a reflex camera? Thanks!

Rik Andino · January 31, 2005

Yeah (if I remember correctly) the light lost is a small problem.

I haven't shot with a Bolex since filmschool (like 3 years ago)

But If I remember the way to compensate for the light loss

Is to open up a 1/3 of a stop (which is already a good thing to do on film).

Yeah the bolex beam splitter viewer system was always a problem

You should also always remember to close the viewfinder when not viewing thru it

Because light can hit the film through the viewfinder.

And you should get a reflex model

1) They are newer than paralax models (which are over 40 years old)

2) You can see exactly what you are shooting

3) You can shoot CU (Close-ups) correctly

4) You can focus by eye

5) It only cost a little bit more

I really recommend the reflex model

And I think most people would also

Paralax is an antiquated method not suitables for todays fast moving productions

Chris Burke · February 2, 2005

How are you editing and screening your work? If you go the non-linear route and are already set up to do that, your films will live in the digital realm, then shoot super 8. Buy a Nizo 6080 or Bealieu 6008 or later. Then go to Bonofilms.com and buy one or more of there super 8 to mini Dv packages. They are cheaper than Pro8mm. You will love it and it won't cost you that much.

If you are going to cut on a flatbed or the like. Want to screen your films as prints, then go with 16. I own a K3. I can't speak highly enough about the quality of it's lens. Quite sharp with what I would call, "interesting contrast". Am considering the Super 16 upgrade.

Noah Teichner · February 2, 2005

For now I am just edit the film manually. Like I said, one of the reasons I want to get into film instead of digital is to further understand the actual format. If I decide to start doing non-linear editing later on I already have both a G4 desktop and laptop so I shouldn't have any trouble.

Ronald Carrion · March 3, 2007

GO FOR THE K3!
I have one i got for 200 and it works great.

You can later yourself do some easy modifications to it.

I have improved the film path and changed to s16(not the viewfinder)

I own an Eclair i got later but it is still a great camera for especial shots. (manual time lapse, risky places...)

Dont you think this camera is too noisy? You are going to need a sync camera.

Patrick Cooper · March 4, 2007

"I was kind of leaning towards 16mm because it seems it requires more of an understanding of the medium as opposed to just pointing and shooting."

Although 16mm is a great medium to work with, it should be noted that super 8 is not necessarily about 'just pointing and shooting.' True, there were some 'point and shoot' super 8 models produced, but there are also other super 8 cameras which are extremely versatile and some of these have more features than some 16mm cameras. The top of the range super 8 cameras will all have manual focus and manual exposure control in addition to automatic exposure control, and usually single frame capability and multiple running speeds. On many such models you will also find built-in interval timers for programmed time lapse, macro function, optical effects like fades and dissolves. Some models will have very high running speeds like 54fps or higher for nice, fluid slow motion and there are a few models that can do time exposures like a still camera. My Canon 1014E even has a socket for connecting a flash unit in conjunction with single frame shooting!

It is much cheaper shooting on super 8 than 16mm so one possible route to take is start with super 8 and learn from your mistakes with that format (which basically means less expensive mistakes!) and then move up to 16mm.

Nick Mulder · March 4, 2007

This thread is two years old ...

I suppose the discussion will always be relevant, but I imagine the person who started the thread has made a purchase by now :rolleyes:

Patrick Cooper · March 5, 2007

"This thread is two years old ... "

Woah! Good that was pointed out. I didn't see the dates!

alfredoparra · March 10, 2007

"This thread is two years old ... "

Woah! Good that was pointed out. I didn't see the dates!

get a barbie doll camera from walmart like mine! im shooting low buget under cover, you can buy a 4 point flash light set for $4.00 plus tax, no batteries included! But for a buck you can buy a pack of four size d batteries at the dollar store. good luck! happy filming!