John Salim Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 Hi all, After checking a 35mm B&W print of 'Swing Time' ( 1936 ), I noticed it has French subtitles ( with original English soundtrack ). According to the can's label, this print looks as if it came from a French distributor ( includes a print report from 1986 ). The unusual thing is, it's a B&W print ( Ilford Safety Film ) with yellow subtitles. I've never seen this before on B&W stock, but on projection the text looks like it was etched by laser. So how was the yellow colour added ..... a type of dye bath or transfer possibly ??? Has anyone seen this before or know how it was produced ?...... I'd love to know ! Many thanks, John S ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Pritchard Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I believe they used hot foil printing to produce coloured sub-titles. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 20, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 20, 2019 LASER does not etch but burn. Subtitles are in fact dotted out. In a good, sharp projection you can see a series of round points that form the letters. Depending on the adjustment of a given LASER apparatus the letter ground goes a little deeper or less. Since the yellow-dye layers are closest to the base LASER subtitles not completely through to the base, ideally into it, bear a yellow tint. Be careful with Ilford, they never made a black and white motion-picture print stock and if so, I should very much like to know when. Ilford Fine Grain Safety Positive was presumably made by a third party. Rolls no longer than 400 ft were on sale, unperforated as well. The print you have may be a color film. If it were to be Ilford black and white, the printed lettering ought to read black on clear. If you read clear on black, it’s copied from neg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Salim Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 Many thanks for your reply Simon, but I can confirm Ilford did indeed manufacture a huge amount of 16mm and 35mm B&W print stock. A friend of mine worked for Ilford's back then and he's also very interested to know how the subtitles were 'coloured in'. ( I'll check to find out when the stocks were made ). The letters do look laser cut to me, and they seem to have the random 'round points' as you mention. The text is incredibly sharp ( and rock steady compared to the images behind them ). They're also noticably 'cut' into the emulsion side, so no, I don't think they're produced photographically. John S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 20, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 20, 2019 Mmh, I’m on the hook. It was named Ilford Fine Grain Safety Positive film. https://www.dia-versum.de/Ilford-Filmstrip-Printer1950th.pdf Just saw this with an ebay offer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Simon Wyss said: Mmh, I’m on the hook. It was named Ilford Fine Grain Safety Positive film. https://www.dia-versum.de/Ilford-Filmstrip-Printer1950th.pdf Just saw this with an ebay offer: No later than the late 70s or very early 80s. I remember the disappearance of the sunburst from the logo. I still have it on a packet of Ilfobrom 10x8. Edited July 20, 2019 by Mark Dunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 21, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 21, 2019 Found another picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Simon Wyss said: Found another picture That's even earlier- the "sunburst" was adopted in 1964. Handy references here https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Chronology.html "Ilford Ltd., Ilford, Essex" disappeared from packages in my very early photographic years- they moved out in 1976, but I was still using film that had been packed in Ilford a couple of years later. Edited July 21, 2019 by Mark Dunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 21, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 21, 2019 I think it was Eastman 5302, converted by Ilford from jumbo rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 21, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 21, 2019 18 hours ago, John Salim said: They're also noticably 'cut' into the emulsion side, so no, I don't think they're produced photographically. John, we have a misunderstanding. What I meant is edge print lettering such as the safety S and ILFORD. That would be black on clear, if genuine to the print stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Salim Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 Apologies Simon.... yes I misunderstood you, of course the text would be black on clear. My friend assures me Ilford never bought any of their print stocks from anyone else - they produced all of their own. The last M/P stock called 'Mark V' was manufactured for many years and he believes was withdrawn around 2003. If I can get a reel back from the archive, I'll photograph a few frames. John S ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted July 21, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) Yes, Mark V was an ISO 500 grey base negative film. Edited July 21, 2019 by Simon Wyss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Salim Posted August 19, 2019 Author Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) Here's a picture of the yellow subtitles... John S ? Edited August 19, 2019 by John Salim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted August 19, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted August 19, 2019 Lush. Maybe Brian Britchard has an idea. Ask him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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