Career & Money.

[Erik Baczay]

Hi everyone!

I recently have been getting into this as a career. I am based in Vegas, so production work is a little slow; my long-term goal is to become a cinematographer for documentaries and films, but currently, I am trying to make ends meet and upgrade gear. I have taken on some event work. Videography jobs for some small events, corporate shoots, and online courses. It's not the "dream work" or the place where I have the most artistic control but I still try my best to give the clients the best work possible.

This side of my freelance has been growing as I get recommended to others, and it seems I am starting to gain ground on a videography job. I am working with a friend to create passion project films, as Vegas is pretty dried in the indie film corner. Very rarely do we have films made by people who haven't traveled in the crew, or there are usually people with much more experience being picked up.

Is there any advice on balancing the need to make money and building a career with a body of work that could get into more features and documentaries? Should I separate these bodies of work to create an altered identity, reel, and portfolio for events and then one for more "artistic" work?

I really don't want to do event videography for the rest of my life. I love being behind the camera and creating images; I hope they will last. Any advice is appreciated, and I wish to learn how to balance these two seemingly very different worlds.

 

[Albion Hockney]

It's a really hard industry. when I was young people told me only a percent of a percent of people get to direct or DP films with real budgets. I didn't believe them, but now I know, its true. Of the people I know who went to film school maybe 2-3% make a living as a DP, and less get to shoot work they really love (most do commercials). Other have different jobs in marketing, work in the camera/lighting department, film events, or left the industry all together.

If you have the drive and love for it then go make some incredible work with very little money  that shows what you can do.

You get work from networks and your portfolio. You need both to make it happen.

Figure out what you want to specialize in and go after it, the commercial scene, the indie scene, and the documentary scene are all totally different people with only a little overlap.

As for your website you get work from the work you make. Events will get you events, corporate interviews will get your corporate interviews. For now maybe its fine to combine them for your website if your just starting out, but if I'm looking to hire a documentary dp for a project I want to see a reel focused on that and maybe some narrative tossed in.

All this said, most people I know who are more creative and going after features or doc work struggle to make money. even those with "successful" indie films that have shown a prominent festivals and have sold films for real money. It's still a very unstable living for them and many teach at a college, do commercials, or even work in other industries between films.

The less creative the work the more stable a career you can find so keep that in mind. the event work is a good plan B if you can stomach it.

Most people I know who are successful are totally obsessed and love it too much not to do it. You often have to make a lot of sacrifice to find success so you'll have to decide if that's right for you. If it is, it'll work out somehow. just make great work, be a nice person, and keep hustling.

 

Edited January 29 by Albion Hockney

[Albion Hockney]

When I was young I remember getting on a bus in the town I went to film school and overhearing the bus driver had gone to film school. I remember thinking to myself with a snide attitude, "he must have really **(obscenity removed)**ed up" now I think.... Hmmm Bus Driving, not a bad gig.

[Jon O'Brien]

I'm not really someone to advise, but I can relate to your situation, Erik. I think what Albion said is great. Just stick with it through thick and thin -- if you really love it you will survive and get better at what you do and eventually you will get noticed. Sometimes it can help to read some of the stories of those who went on to eventual success in their chosen field. They're always interesting stories. I think it's good advice to have something else in your life that you do, that you like or love, and that you can also make money doing. It all takes time though. Some people really only start to get somewhere in life once they start to get old. It's a long road, but that's life. A tiny few get successful early.

What I find most difficult about the film industry is the appalling level of information regarding jobs or potential jobs out there. I keep hearing about productions being filmed in my state but nobody and I mean nobody anywhere knows anything about it and you never can find out a thing. I've joined groups and so on and still know nothing of what's going on around the place. Yeah, maybe I'm not good enough but I still keep persisting, and keep trying to get better at what I do and this often means offering to make a video for free for someone or some group, and then when they ask me to come back I ask for a payment the next time around. Boy, though, a film life is not an easy one to find work. Except for a tiny few. That's why I also have music. The great thing about music is that it's basically free to make and you don't need anyone else to make it. You just play (or sing, or compose). You are your own boss in a way. Just got to find a way to make a living from it. It's possible.

All the best!

[Aapo Lettinen]

you have to be able to constantly set aside some money so that you will eventually have the possibility to choose what gigs you want to do, choosing the ones which will get you forward in your career instead of just scraping together anything you could to pay the bills. Generally it would be good to have something like 2 years salary worth of savings + rich parents before starting a film career but few people have that possibility so the next best thing is to always choose the best paying gigs no matter what they are so that you can save some money for later use. They can help in other ways too because the important contacts and reputation often come from these well-paid gigs too as long as you seek for mainly technical work instead of purely artistic one.

When having enough financial security you have the possibility to advance to more artistic job positions which are more uncertain at first and possibly paid less at first. You can manage with the less paid & more uncertain stuff for some time when paying the rest of the bills with your savings and hopefully the artistic stuff will catch on after a while and you will earn more than ever ?

So I would at first concentrate on the best paying gigs, no matter what they are as long as it is legal ? you can do side projects if having time but try to concentrate on getting lots of good contacts and financial security at first

[Erik Baczay]

@Albion Hockney.

Yes, it's a complex industry to get into and even more challenging to deal with in the long term. Having finances is in order. I believe most DPs who specialize are definitely in the few hell. Even the greats often work on commercials and other projects to pad their expenses.

Right now, I think I am working toward blocking sure sides of my work and creating the "eat sh** projects" and trying to do narrative work on the side with low-budget or no-budget indies with friends where we all are attempting to build our careers so we all want to make it look good and not to put this pressure on my more limiting client work who just like a standard video rather than something "cinematic" or more original.

Sure, events are not the most fun, but they have enabled me to set aside money that I can use to grow my skills and gear and take time off to do a project now and then (not always).

Thanks for the reassurance that this isn't only a problem and how the industry works.

It is essential to have safety careers or backup plans. Let's face it: as much as we believe we are suitable or can afford to bet all on red, we will rarely succeed the way we think we will at first.

But with each hit, we will improve, grow, and strike better, right?

[Albion Hockney]

Only thing I would add is that most people who do succeed on a high level either have incredible safety nets (ie independent wealthy or connected families) or at some point do take some big risks. There's no free lunch. If you love it enough you go for broke, but that's not right for everyone or honestly even a smart/healthy thing to do in most cases.

Sounds like you have a great mindset though and a solid plan B. Wish you the best of luck!

 

[Tyler Purcell]

It's a tricky question and a touchy subject for everyone really. Nepotism reigns supreme and I think you'll find, that people who really succeed in this industry, have excellent connections and can back up their work, time and time again. Nearly everyone struggles to find their position in the industry, even incredibly talented DP's. What has always scared me about this industry is how fickle it is. One day you're getting a decent sized feature film and the next, you're eating Raman noodles wondering how you're going to pay rent. It's all who you know, it's all about the people you work with and their career paths. The lucky ones, find this very early on. Many start out as 3rd camera assistant right out of school, find a decent team to work with and then simply go from project to project, going up the ranks until they become DP. 

I've had this happen to me once in my life, it was a 6 year whirlwind journey where I found the right team and basically did all of their work. It was non-stop, incredible amount of effort. We did features, commercials and industrial films. It was a blast, until our results weren't good enough and the team split up. For a few months after the last show wrapped, we stayed in contact, but we never worked together. I got a full time job to pay bills outside of the industry and many of them moved away from Los Angeles. It's that fickle nature, I see so many really talented people struggle with. 

So what's the answer? 

Nobody prevents you from being creative. Getting a good non-industry job that you can take time off from, I think is the key. Something that doesn't suck up all your time and will give you the freedom to pursue the creative work. Being around other people in the industry does help light that fire, I always find it does for me. Whenever I'm away from industry friends, I'm kinda lazy about my own work. But man, get us together in group and I'm ready to start writing again. 

There are so many outlets to show your skills today. Nothing stops you from creating great content and demonstrating your talent. Nothing stops you from meeting new people and creating those connections. You can do all of this without too much money. I think making an image for yourself on the internet, really helps a lot. Don't do what everyone else is doing, do something different. Find your unique voice and stick to it. 

I've found solace in running my own industry adjacent businesses, where I get to talk to and meet some top people on a regular basis. It's always fun to hear their stories and realize; maybe that lifestyle isn't for me. Sure it would be fun to do a 100M feature once, but I don't think I could deal with the stress of not knowing where my next paycheck was coming from ever again. The older you get, the less you wanna even contemplate that. Where I absolutely love making films, nothing prevents me from doing just that and I have a whole series of short films I've been shooting over the last few years, which keeps me busy and presenting new work to the internet, friends, family and fans. That is enough creativity to keep me happy and I think you'd find, making your own stuff, will satisfy the most difficult to reach itch. No isn't an answer when you're in charge and all you need is a decent gig to help fund your projects and you're off to the races. 

 

[Aapo Lettinen]

one challenge with the film industry is that it sucks the life and soul out of everything it can... and if wanting to be really successful one often has to gamble everything (all normal social life like family and friends, your own health, basic human needs like sleep, food and shelter, etc) to get forward, still not guaranteed it works on the first try.

The difficulty is that it is not entirely about talent+skills and body of work, contacts and reels and stuff. There is a signifiant "luck component" involved which throws people around and no one knows what will happen. It can be something as absurd as that you just resembling one of their friends and they remembering you purely for that reason (true story, led to couple of years of work) or some social media algorithm acting weirdly and happening to show some posting from a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend-of-a.... 

I mean, it is important to make the whole journey fun, or meaningful, or at least tolerable. There is lots of uncertainty and no one knows really where you will end up but it is so much easier to bear if you just try to make it a good run instead of daydreaming about the ultimate end result 200M+ Hollywood films and treat all the smaller steps in between as "garbage" which needs to be got out of the way to get forward ?

One other thing is that the film industry is really harsh for everyone around you. they will support you the best they can but it is just so hard to watch if someone is away from home all day everyday, comes back absolutely exhausted if at all (you can't survive without sleep. have learnt the hard way that if you have to choose, always choose sleep, no matter how thirsty you are, how hungry you are...) , in the worst case is additionally in bad mood because the shooting day was garbage and can't debrief with collagues, instead vomiting it on family members who waited you home for 20+ hours...   Another reason why the whole journey should be tolerable too, not just the end result! Your loved ones deserve better, try to make it up to them the best you can by being around when it is not absolutely mandatory to be out there filming stuff ?

film industry is a giant leech, it will gladly take every last drop of blood you can squeeze out if you just let it do that ?

----

I call the super-industry-oriented people "shadow people" because they seem to live and breathe the film community stuff, they only have film industry collagues and "friends" (not really friends, just "better collagues" they get drunk with and watch movies with on free time, sometime even date with briefly before finding out that it is just logistically impossible to arrange when they both travel all the time and are never home at the same time), they use all their spare time on indie projects, live in some clogged tiny apartment which is not a real home, just a place to sleep in during gigs and to store stuff. they don't sleep well, they travel all the time, see their family only in Christmas and in funerals (if they happen to be in the country). they are usually single (because no partner would tolerate them being away for 250 to 300 days a year minimum) and have no kids (or if they have, they rarely see them if ever). Some kind of medication probably eventually needed to keep it all together. At some point they end up in a car crash, maybe surviving and possibly downshifting a little, maybe not. If not, they will probably get a "Worked very hard" engraved on their headstone and no one will remember their archievements after couple of years (well, because they really had no real friends, just lots of collagues who already moved forward after the "brilliant resource" was lost. Their relatives or family might remember them faintly but mainly about that they were never around, only working on something super important, something which was really going to be a breakthough, hopefully) ?

I mean, don't lose your gip on real life no matter where you end up in your career, no matter how busy you are, no matter how much the industry seems to need your last spark of energy and final second of free time. Family is always more important, real friends are always more important. Collagues come and go just like job positions and projects, they are ultimately exchangeable resources, rarely becoming real true friends, just better collagues

Edited February 6 by Aapo Lettinen

[Erik Baczay]

@Albion Hockney,

Thank you and the same to you.

[Erik Baczay]

@Tyler Purcell, 

Thank you for being so honest and sharing your personal story. It cannot be easy to reflect on good and bad times. Money is not guaranteed, and it was made clear to me when I started. Many get uncomfortable about this question, at least when I ask fellow camera operators and creatives.

 

It's not easy, and it's been made clear by everyone. It's not swaying me at all. Personal projects are cool, and I hope to work on them more with my friends. We're just about to run our first indie short. It hasn't been easy, and it's the first time I will fully control the camera and lighting. (Nervous and excited at the same time)

 

Can I ask what you mean by "results weren't good enough"? I hear this from other DPS, some gaffers, and producers at the time. Does this mean failing to meet the quality of the client or marketing results? Does it vary from case to case?

People will come and go, and I am used to it. I don't believe I have ever met the "ride or die" coworker, colleague, teammate, client, or boss, but I am glad you found your path. I wish you success.

 

I think you guys make it clear that in this career, you need to combine saving, trying to plan, having a backup plan, or a secondary job to back up in case the brown chocolate hits the fan.

 

Thank you for your advice, sharing your story, and taking the time to answer my question. It has offered me a lot of insight.

[Tyler Purcell]

7 hours ago, Erik Baczay said:

Can I ask what you mean by "results weren't good enough"? I hear this from other DPS, some gaffers, and producers at the time. Does this mean failing to meet the quality of the client or marketing results? Does it vary from case to case?

People will come and go, and I am used to it. I don't believe I have ever met the "ride or die" coworker, colleague, teammate, client, or boss, but I am glad you found your path. I wish you success.

Can be a lot of things. 

For me, it's the expectations of the studio. Everyone forgets the bombs ya know? You're on a ship for a month or two and that's when you get paid to work. You wanna be back on that ship and if that captain has success, then it's easy to rejoin the ship. However, if the captain doesn't have success, if the product is shelved, or not properly distributed, or maybe just a poor product for whatever reason, all of that effort may be for nothing. 

In this part of the industry, where we're making lower budget content, yea it does vary a lot. Unlike the studio world, where the Directors generally work with the same DP's a lot and those DP's work with the same crews, you don't get that in the indy world at all. So unless ya got a big success under your belt financially and the director is ready to shoot their next project right away (maybe a commercial or industrial film), the crew kinda get busy on other things and disperses. You'll find a lot of top directors do shoot other content, which keeps their crews pretty busy. Plus, big shows have a lot of prep time, so outside of day players, you may get a few months of prep and few months of post tacked onto your already lengthy production. The indy world is nearly entire day playing by contrast, which means, you're a straight freelancer. Which is NOT the case in the upper echelons. 

So the problems are; 

- Consistency of work hours (how many good paying jobs you get per year)
- Consistency of other crew (if you do a great job, is everyone else also working at 100%?) 
- Consistency of finished product (are you working a project that will go nowhere?) 

It's also very cutthroat. There are thousands of DP's in the US with better equipment, more connections, extreme talent and ready to jump on a plane AT THEIR COST, to be involved in even the smallest project. Sometimes I regret, not doing the same thing. 

Sight side note; what happened to me, happens to a lot of young filmmakers. They move to an industry town like Los Angeles and they immediately get work on shows. That's exactly what happened to me, shot two features back to back upon arrival. Both direct to video, but I was 25 years old working in Hollywood, it was awesome. Then some politics happened and my entire team wound up getting fired from our 2nd film. I was devastated. Suddenly the money dried up and I was forced to make a decision; work like a dog for 16hrs/day for practically minimum wage to pay bills or get a real job. I took the latter, which forced me out of the industry for just over a decade. I got lucky tho, met some industry people during that time, who kept me busy creatively and those freelance gigs, led me to bigger ones and eventually I was a full time freelancer. It was stressful and I did blow a lot of cash on shit I probably shouldn't have, but I was young and wanted to enjoy my youth.

 

[Jon O'Brien]

It's all a bit daunting, reading the posts. Just remember if it all sounds too difficult that even driving a bus or being a cab driver is no perfect life, either. Or being an engineer or a project manager .... imagine how boring that would be, for an artistic, creative person. If you're creative just accept it and deal with it. That's my advice.

[Aapo Lettinen]

1 hour ago, Jon O'Brien said:

It's all a bit daunting, reading the posts. Just remember if it all sounds too difficult that even driving a bus or being a cab driver is no perfect life, either. Or being an engineer or a project manager .... imagine how boring that would be, for an artistic, creative person. If you're creative just accept it and deal with it. That's my advice.

I am pretty sure I could earn better as a bus/cab driver than working in the film industry ? might be more stressful even in here (can't imagine what it would be to drive a bus or cab in the States) but the difference between uncertain higher hour rate freelance and lower paid stable paycheck "normal job" may not be that large after all. Depending on how much you have to pay taxes and so on.

I am actually in the middle of engineering studies and not boring at all! Creative work is creative work, it matters surprisingly little how you channel it. You can write books or make music or shoot short films or paint or whatever. build something out of Legos or clay or whatnot. It does not have to be something obsessively single-minded like "if I can't carve holes after holes to this concrete wall with a toothpick I will die instantly" , one can channel it to whatever seems the most interesting topic at the moment ?

At the moment I like to draw front panels and circuit boards in cad, often adding some extra finishing just to make them look nicer, adding a nice looking logo and gold plating and black finish on a circuit board no one else sees but me... in a way, it is kind of super functional graphic designing but there is some freedom of adding stuff purely for artistic value too ?

[Jon O'Brien]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:37 PM, Aapo Lettinen said:

I am pretty sure I could earn better as a bus/cab driver than working in the film industry ? ...

I am actually in the middle of engineering studies and not boring at all! 

At the moment I like to draw front panels and circuit boards in cad, often adding some extra finishing just to make them look nicer, adding a nice looking logo and gold plating and black finish on a circuit board no one else sees but me... in a way, it is kind of super functional graphic designing but there is some freedom of adding stuff purely for artistic value too ?

Yes I read what I wrote and think I could have said it a better way. Engineers and project managers .... I've known quite a few over the years (most men I know are actually some variation of 'engineer'). Not having been attracted to even one iota of the subject of engineering my whole life so far I've had to face this sort of attitude that seems to say: get a real job, from the engineer types. Stop doing these creative, artistic things you always are driven to do. Just do them as hobbies in your spare time. Fair enough. I just hope that people who want to make films, or music, or paintings, or whatever, manage to find enough of that rare thing called spare time.

Edited February 8 by Jon O'Brien

[Jon O'Brien]

My own dad was an engineer type. He used to say: get a good paying job and do your creative things as hobbies. I tried that for quite a few years and that did just not happen. And all around me I saw hard working people doing the same thing and a lot of them either drank too much or just had bike riding as a hobby. Riding a b-------y bike!! Ha!

I'm afraid if someone wants to follow the arty creative path in life they will suffer for it. But better to suffer doing something you love than something you don't like. Just got to choose your path as best you can. If doing engineering does it for you that is wonderful as you will certainly make money.

[Aapo Lettinen]

9 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

My own dad was an engineer type. He used to say: get a good paying job and do your creative things as hobbies. I tried that for quite a few years and that did just not happen. And all around me I saw hard working people doing the same thing and a lot of them either drank too much or just had bike riding as a hobby. Riding a b-------y bike!! Ha!

I'm afraid if someone wants to follow the arty creative path in life they will suffer for it. But better to suffer doing something you love than something you don't like. Just got to choose your path as best you can. If doing engineering does it for you that is wonderful as you will certainly make money.

I think nowadays that suffering does not lead to higher/better artistic value and is completely separate from normal artistic processes.

Dedication and good resources, on the other hand, often DO lead to better artistic result and thus it is favorable if those can be arranged somehow to ease the process ?

Doing creative things as one's main job is mainly just frustrating whereas doing them as hobbies can be arranged to be both fun and more rewarding.

Another thing is that 99.9% of people working in film industry / other entertainment are mainly handling logistics and technical stuff and have absolutely no creative control over the end result. leading them just doing a "normal job", just less paid and more uncertain than some other person in some other industry would do.

[Jon O'Brien]

15 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

I think nowadays that suffering does not lead to higher/better artistic value and is completely separate from normal artistic processes.

Dedication and good resources, on the other hand, often DO lead to better artistic result and thus it is favorable if those can be arranged somehow to ease the process ?

Doing creative things as one's main job is mainly just frustrating whereas doing them as hobbies can be arranged to be both fun and more rewarding.

Another thing is that 99.9% of people working in film industry / other entertainment are mainly handling logistics and technical stuff and have absolutely no creative control over the end result. leading them just doing a "normal job", just less paid and more uncertain than some other person in some other industry would do.

Yes I agree Aapo. I probably shouldn't have used the word suffering as the meaning of it can be misconstrued these days. I meant making art won't be easy going at all times. But people differ on what they mean by 'art' ........ I think I will gracefully depart from this thread.

Edited February 9 by Jon O'Brien

[Aapo Lettinen]

8 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Yes I agree Aapo. I probably shouldn't have used the word suffering as the meaning of it can be misconstrued these days. I meant making art won't be easy going at all times. But people differ on what they mean by 'art' ........ I think I will gracefully depart from this thread.

Artistic struggle might be the correct term... but that is supposed to mean only the mental struggle to create new art out of thin air.

People often take it like the artistic suffering is supposed to be physical torture instead, especially in the film industry where most of the struggles are real world physical issues anyway. 

Making life physically more tolerable leads to better art even if the greedy indie producers try to convince otherwise :D

[Nicholas Lorini]

Some good thoughts in this thread. I am also struggling to figure out or realize the next steps in my own career. I've working up and down the camera department for close to 10 years. I am member of Local 600 in the Digital Loader classification. And I am currently working full time as an in-house DP for a production company.

Problem is, I have been doing all this work in a non-market city in Florida so I don't have much of a network. I am thankful for the stability of the full time job but it pays significantly less than I could potentially earn in the freelance world. With a 2 year old at home and all the money and time that takes, I feel spread a bit thin as a full time employee (and the work is often quite boring corporate talking head kinda stuff).

My short term goal/next step is to get my freelancing career moving. Longterm goal is to be a working freelance DP in commercials (eventually narratives/docs but I'd like a sustainable career first). Since I don't live in large market, I realize that I'll need to network outside my city, which is fine, I just have no idea where to start. Would love to hear some stories/advice as to how you all dealt with networking and building contacts without necessarily moving into a major market (can't really afford to move the whole family right now).

Here's my website too if anyone has thoughts on what to improve there: www.nicholaslorini.com