Mic solution for classical music video

[Jon O'Brien]

In November I have a shoot coming up with two classical musicians. One's a cellist, the other a pianist. They're both really good players, amongst the best in my area.

The cellist asked me if I could film a simple video for advertising their duo online. This won't be a live gig in front of an audience, so we can do other takes. I will also be doing a video ad for the wedding venue (a privately owned Chapel).

The plan is that they will play together in the chapel and I will film them, with B-roll shots to fill the scene out. My question is mainly about the audio challenge for this shoot.

I want to film them as if they are both playing acoustically, like they do for wedding gigs (the pianist will be playing on a digital keyboard  but for all intents and purposes it's an acoustic performance).

So, ideally, I don't want microphones in the scene.

How is it best to do this, and still get great audio?

My current plan is to get hold of another Deity S-Mic 2s small shotgun mic, and use that with my other one and mount both on a boom pole. The boom pole gets held up by a C stand with weight bag on the legs. I put the two mics, perhaps in XY configuration, approximately in the centre of the two musicians, up high and just out of shot.

Two long mic cables with XLR connectors go to either directly into a Canon C300 MkIII or into a Zoom recorder. I will need to get better headphones to properly monitor the audio.

Does this plan sound feasible? What are other ways to mic this shoot? Can anyone recommend good, low-cost mic solutions other than getting another Deity mic. What about Rode mics?

How do other music video shooters handle filming gigs like this?

Also, at first I was tempted to hire a second camera, and do a multicam setup, but I think I will have to shoot this with just one C300. My plan is to film an entire run of a performance, the camera locked off on a tripod, medium wide shot. Then do further takes for B-roll shots, with CU shots etc. Any advice appreciated. Thanks!

 

 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Jon O'Brien

[Jon O'Brien]

Here's another possibility. Just get a good Zoom recorder with its own mics and mount that on the boom pole, in the middle and above the players, just out of frame. Sound won't be as good maybe.

Or just get some great shots of them. Get them to make a studio recording of one of their pieces. Use that recording as a non-sync track to various images of them playing in the venue, with slow-mo here and there.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Jon O'Brien

[Brian Drysdale]

I knew a BBC sound supervisor who could mic an orchestra with a single microphone. Assuming a room with good acoustics, it was placed to the front and high, in your case it would be a spot that has a good balance between the piano and the cello.  

[Nicolas POISSON]

At a distance, the room's acoustic plays a much more important role than the mic. If acoustic is lower than "great", there is not much to do. Shotgun mics with interference tube are not the preferred choice in reverberant spaces, as reflections cause weird comb filtering which translates into metallic / robot sound, a bit like if you were using a vocoder.

It will be way easier to get decent sound using close miking. For the piano, you can mike the soundboard from the rear, or hide the mics in the piano behind the upper or lower panel. The later gives a darker sound and there is a risk of getting more pedal noise, but some pianists may want to remove the upper panel. The piano will benefit from a stereo recording. On the cello, you could use DPA 4099, which are easy to place, but will remain visible. You could also use any decent lavalier on the tailpiece (very easy to hide both mic and cable) or on the bridge.

 

Edited October 24, 2024 by Nicolas POISSON

[Jon O'Brien]

Hi Brian, yes I think the less mics for recording acoustic music generally the better. I've heard it said that many of the best classical recordings were made with just two mics in a stereo array.

Thanks Nicolas, that's very helpful information. I'm going to get into close micing of instruments a little bit further along the track. I agree about the problems inherent with shotgun mics for this sort of audio capture.

My current plan is to use two Rode NT5 mics, each on a separate boom, on separate light stands or C stands if necessary, just above and out of frame. One aimed at the cello f holes and the other towards the centre of the piano, then listen carefully and adjust, then do a take. These mics are designed for recording acoustic instruments.

The Deity S-mic 2s I normally use on top of the camera is a fantastic mic but is too directional for this job.

Always interested to read more ideas if anyone's got any knowledge/experience to share. Thanks!

[Larry Sanbourne]

Hi Jon,

I'm reviving this old thread and curious if the duo was happy with the results? I am an audio engineer doing only classical music recording, with a specialism in chamber music. I know your session is done and I'm offering my view in case it helps for the future.

The standard way to record this (taught to me by German Tonmeister sorts) is a spaced pair of omnis for a main pair, which can be boomed over the shot and serve as "glue" and room sound in mixing; a pair of mics for the cello (e.g. parallel cardioids, which depending on room acoustics can be fairly far and perpendicular to the face of the instrument, for your video needs), and for the piano, an ORTF pair in the crook. You can certainly also get by with a single pair, but it will sound best if you have spaced omnis (e.g. 80cm) and ORTF so that you have good bass response and clearer stereo imaging. As others have said, the room is by far the most important factor (besides the players). Esp for piano, the room needs to be very big, and it needs to have a beautiful acoustic, since classical music typically does not sound good close miked - classical instruments play the room, and classical recordings sound most natural when recorded with a balance of direct and room sound. With good instruments, good players naturally balancing with each other, and a good room, you can indeed get by with a single pair.

Hope this helps for future recordings! Please feel free to post about particular chamber setups and I'm happy to suggest mic plans for the future. Sorry I didn't see your post earlier.

All the best,

Larry

[Jon O'Brien]

Hi Larry, thanks so much for this great information from someone who is expert at this. The recording hasn't taken place yet and will now be sometime early this year. It's good because I have more time to get prepared. In late January I'm doing a recording for a violin and piano duo. This one's an audition video. I'm a musician with filmmaking skills so it's a natural development to get into this area of videography. I'm getting better at audio each time I do a video.

When you say omnis for the main pair, would this include small diaphragm condenser microphones? I will be using a matched pair of the Rode NT5:

https://rode.com/en-us/microphones/studio-condenser/nt5?variant_sku=NT5

I have an omni capsule which can be screwed into the front of one of these mics to convert it into an omni mic. Perhaps I should get another omni capsule for the other NT5 if necessary.

The players are excellent with really good instruments. I will have to make do for now with a single pair of mics.

For recording classical musicians I use a Sound Devices MixPre III recorder. I also have a C stand, boom pole up to 10 feet long, Rode Stereo Bar for parallel and ORTF arrangement etc, plus some other stands and assorted gear.

 

Edited January 2 by Jon O'Brien

[Larry Sanbourne]

Hi Jon,

Really happy if the info helps. I'm similar to you - a musician but with audio skills, and getting better each time with video!

For a single pair, I can't stress enough how much of a difference the venue makes. I didn't completely believe that, and with 2 Schoeps MK5s + MixPre, I have made sort of mediocre-sounding recordings in a medium-sized room, and super professional-sounding recordings in a room with a great acoustic (big, to avoid standing waves, and with beautiful reverb).

I couldn't quickly find frequency response charts for Rode NT5 and I don't have experience with it, but small-diaphragm condenser is certainly fine. For classical you just want the flattest frequency response possible.

Piano goes lower than your typical cardioid frequency response, and the low frequencies also help with an accurate room impression. So I would indeed suggest trying another omni capsule and recording spaced omnis  and see how it turns out. The violin projects the sweetest sound approximately perpendicular to the *player* (perpendicular to the instrument sounds scratchy). If it suits your video goals, you could have the violinist stand in the crook of the piano, place the spaced omnis like 1m from the violin and maybe 1.5-2m from the piano, and do some tests until the piano and the violin both sound centered and the balance is to your liking. If the violinist's stereo image sounds like it's moving too much side to side or front and back, try making the omni spacing narrower or increasing distance to the mics. If you want a simpler setup, you can of course do the typical concert setup - violinist facing parallel to the pianist and standing next to them, with spaced omnis in front of both. If you get too much piano, you can move the piano back from this. Bottom line, just visualize the relative distances from each instrument to the mics, and arrange the players based on your desired balance.

Btw how do you handle sync? When I do video, it's with 2-4 cameras (2 Sony ZV-E 10 IIs in log and sometimes 2 DJI Pocket cameras for wide shots of venues). I tried getting the Sonys to output time of day timecode but I'm then recording into Reaper (DAW) and I end up doing it manually.

Let me know if this helps or you have other questions or want to attach test recordings. The mixing is an art as well, and parametric EQ + high quality reverb can help compensate for small rooms - but it's hard.

[Jon O'Brien]

That's very helpful Larry. Thank you!

So far I've handled sync by either plugging a microphone directly into the camera (usually a Canon C300 mkIII) or by using the auto sync feature on Davinci Resolve that syncs a separately recorded audio track to the camera microphone audio. It's worked very well so far. It automatically lines up the sound waves on the audio tracks. I haven't figured out how to use timecode yet with the MixPre.

With the micing of the violin, when you say perpendicular to the player, does this mean that the mic in effect points approximately at the centre and front of the player's body, at instrument height, perpendicular to the shoulders? I find it can be challenging to get a sweet sound from a violin recording.

And with the spacing of the two omni mics, you would have them something like 80cm apart (subject to further adjustment according to balance through the earphones etc)? Thanks for your help! I'm a film shooter from way back and just getting into audio only recently.