Freedom of the Press vrs. Al Jazeera

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

The problem here, as so frequently, is religion. The only reason any of the parties to the current problems are particularly attached to the patch of ground in question (an almost entirely useless patch of sun-blasted scrub and empty desert, in fact) is because their religious teachings tell them to be.

 

Religion makes people do things without having properly considered their reasons for so doing, and makes apparently senseless problems like this much more serious. It applies only because it's usually presented to people by their parents at an age when they're very impressionable, which is a pretty poor basis on which to murder someone. It's a placebo for a self-aware population whose self-awareness makes them uncofmfortably aware of issues such as purpose and mortality without necessarily having the education to properly understand them, which is uncomfortable. I just think the world should have outgrown it by now.

 

I am, of course, referring to the fundamentalist Christianity, with it's absolute belief in the fire-and-brimstone ending to the bible, that's had its finger on "the button" in the US for the past many years, as much as I am referring to Judaism and its obsession with the ritual genital mutilation of boys, Islam and its tendency to mistreat women, Catholicism and the root cause of the world population problem...

 

Phil

[N DeWood]

I think Mr. Hughes comments are right on about knowing only one side. Very few people truly understand this conflict, because they liste only to western controlled media. They rant about how Arabs want to destroy Israel because it's the only democracy, and others talk about how uncivilized these Arabs are. Remember, there is always two sides to the story.

 

Well, since personal opinions don't really matter too much, it's always good to remind everyone of real facts and statements of leaders. I'll leave everyone some food for thought.

 

Here's a well researched article that I read recently by two respected scholars from Harvard and the University of Chicago (amazing how many people tried to shut them up after publishing the article).

 

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpap...06_011_walt.pdf

 

And finally, here are some interesting quotes about "freedom loving" leaders of Israel. May be you'll understand the root causes of the middle east conflict, and why everyone here is concerned about the "terrorist" groups there. TSM, this is especially for you:

 

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

 

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

 

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

 

 

 

Nick Woods

 

 

 

 

 

- When I was a kid, I knew plenty of Jewish kids and no Arabs or Muslims. I always assumed Israel was in the right in the '67 and '73 wars. I was in college before I even realized there was another side to the issue. Now most of my colleagues are African Muslim and none are Jewish. Someone tell me what to think!

[N DeWood]

I think Mr. Hughes comments are right on about knowing only one side. Very few people truly understand this conflict, because they listen only to western controlled media. They rant about how Arabs want to destroy Israel because it's the only democracy, and others talk about how uncivilized tArabs are.

 

Well, since personal opinions don't really matter, it's always good to remind everyone of real facts and statements of leaders. I'll leave everyone some food for thought.

 

Here's a well researched article that I read recently by two respected scholars from Harvard and the University of Chicago (amazing how many people tried to shut them up after publishing the article).

 

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpap...06_011_walt.pdf

 

And finally, here are some interesting quotes about "freedom loving" leaders of Israel, the "only democracy in the middle east." May be you'll understand the root causes of the middle east conflict, and why everyone here is concerned about the "terrorist" groups there. TSM, this is especially for you:

 

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

 

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

 

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

 

Hmmm.. you wonder why they hate us...

 

Nick Woods

 

 

 

 

 

- When I was a kid, I knew plenty of Jewish kids and no Arabs or Muslims. I always assumed Israel was in the right in the '67 and '73 wars. I was in college before I even realized there was another side to the issue. Now most of my colleagues are African Muslim and none are Jewish. Someone tell me what to think!

[Gareth Munden]

Nick one of your quotes is hear say the other is from ONE nut case.... your point is ?

 

or is your point that JEWS are the problem ? , if thats what you think have the guts to say it.

[N DeWood]

I think Mr. Hughes comments are right on about knowing only one side. Very few people truly understand this conflict, because they listen only to western controlled media, and honestly cant be bothered to verify the news. They rant about how Arabs want to destroy Israel because it's the only democracy, and others talk about how uncivilized tArabs are.

 

Well, since personal opinions don't really matter, it's always good to remind everyone of real facts and statements of leaders.

 

Here's a well researched article that I read recently by two respected scholars from Harvard and the University of Chicago (amazing how many people tried to shut them up after publishing this article).

 

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpap...06_011_walt.pdf

 

And finally, here are some interesting quotes about "freedom loving" leaders of Israel, the "only democracy in the middle east." May be you'll understand the root causes of the middle east conflict, and why everyone here is concerned about the "terrorist" groups there. TSM, this is especially for you:

 

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

 

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

 

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

 

Hmmm.. you wonder why they hate us, and why the region is so radicalized.

 

Nick Woods

 

 

- When I was a kid, I knew plenty of Jewish kids and no Arabs or Muslims. I always assumed Israel was in the right in the '67 and '73 wars. I was in college before I even realized there was another side to the issue. Now most of my colleagues are African Muslim and none are Jewish. Someone tell me what to think!

[Tom Bays]

I got some land in New Orleans I need to sell...You guys look like you might be buying.

 

There is a huge exodus from the Middle East and it ain't because they hate us.

[Jonathan Spear]

Nick, you are so naive, gullible, ignorant and plain stupid that I won't dignify any of your ridiculous posts with a response.

 

I'm through with this stupid conversation.

[David Mullen ASC]

""For example, they claim we're in bed with Isreal -- how have we proven them wrong?""

 

When Ahmadenijad, Nasrallah, Saddam, OBL, Zarqawi, et etc etc say something like that, they're blowing everything out of proportion (as usual). They make it sound like something in the vain of the 'Protocals of the Elders of Zion' or Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'. Like there's an evil conspiracy between the "Zionists" ( <_< ) and the "Crusaders" ( <_< ) against the poor, innocent, righteous Arab world.

 

Oh, I'm not disagreeing there -- the level of anti-semiticism is staggering.

 

I just don't see the U.S. of late trying to dissuade their paranoia by acting as fair and impartial agents for peace and not taking sides.

 

Honestly, does anyone here really think Isreal will eliminate Hezbollah in the current war in Lebanon? Or make Hamas less popular by attacking Gaza? I'm not saying that Isreal wasn't provoked by the kidnappings, but the question is whether this is the most effective way of securing their borders. Are they ever going to feel safe as long as they keep destroying the Palestinian (and now Lebanese) infrastrucure, government, and economy, creating thousands of unemployed youth free to join armed resistance groups?

[Dan Goulder]

There is a huge exodus from the Middle East and it ain't because they hate us.

Yeah, they just can't stand all the love and peace we've dropped on them.

 

BAKS

[Guest]

"I hate Terrorists. I hate Irish terrorisists I hate Chechneian terrorists. I hate American Terrorists. I hate Itailian Terrorists. I Hate Bosnian terrorists. I hate German terrorist."

 

Well now you open up a new issue, how do we define a "terrorist?"

 

Technically the Americans who threw the tea into the Boston harbour where a bunch of terrorists by any technical definition, yet every American history book I've read celebrates them as heroes. So can terrorists be heroes to one group of people and bad guys to another? It seems they can.

 

Osama Bin Laden is a hero to many in the Islamic world, just as the Boston tea party guys where heroes to their fellow Americans.

 

R,

 

PS: Phil Rhodes I'm adding you to the visitation list for every church I can think of smile :)

[Thomas James]

What Israel needs to do is to conquer Southern Lebanon, kick out the terrorists and then Israel needs to build permanent settlements in Southern Lebanon. I think the Christians in Northern Lebanon would welcome a permanent Israeli presence in Southern Lebanon as opposed to a Hezbuallah terrorist regime and I think this arrangement will build a lasting peace.

[Guest Paul Wizikowski]

Honestly, does anyone here really think Isreal will eliminate Hezbollah in the current war in Lebanon? Or make Hamas less popular by attacking Gaza? I'm not saying that Isreal wasn't provoked by the kidnappings, but the question is whether this is the most effective way of securing their borders. Are they ever going to feel safe as long as they keep destroying the Palestinian (and now Lebanese) infrastrucure, government, and economy, creating thousands of unemployed youth free to join armed resistance groups?

 

 

Unfortunatly I don't think that if Isreal stopped, Hezbollah would stop. I certainly don't condone every action taken here but if Lebenon won't/can't take care of Hezbollah than who will? Its not like Hezbollah just started their rocket attacks into Isreal on July 12. Sure they've ramped it up but its been an ongoing issue for Isreal. We are talking about a militant group thats sole purpose is to fester Isreal.

 

And no I don't think Isreal will eliminate Hezbollah, for one because there are enough people to continue to take up arms against Isreal that it would have to go beyond Lebenon to put an end to this particular militant group. And secondly I don't think the world community would allow it. As CNN reports everyone is calling for an immediate cease-fire. All these world leaders want Isreal to call it off but I haven't heard anyone talk about how to deal with the root of the problem, Hezbollah.

 

In my opinion, Isreal has had the right idea to pursue and respond to Hezbollah though its hard, looking at the images on the various news networks, to think that their course of action has matched that idea.

 

I would like to see Isreal reach out to the government of Lebenon and together the two entities work it out.

 

Unfortunatly, what ever happens here this time around, I expect this struggle to unfold again and again in my lifetime.

[Guest]

"I would like to see Isreal reach out to the government of Lebenon and together the two entities work it out."

 

You just isolated the problem, Hezbolah is NOT the government of Lebanon. I'm sure Israel could negotiate with the legitimate government of Lebanon. They can't negotiate with Hezbolah (sp?)

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

As far as religion being the root cause here, Phil, you have a point but I would argue two things. One is that there is a decidely LACK of true religious values at work here, and secondly, I think the real issue, as always, is POWER (I guess Marx would say "economics".)

 

People in power want to stay in power and they will use whatever tools -- whether religion or race, or a bullet or a bomb -- to remain in power. The president of Iran is not well-liked by the population, who view him as a puppet of the religious leaders, but anti-semiticism, nationalism, etc. play well in the "polls" and he'll play that card for all it's worth. Bush is low in the polls but come midterm election time, the Republicans will play to their strengths, national security and cultural "values".

 

Half the sh-- going on out there in the Middle East makes you think "who's in power and how is this helping them stay in power? Who wants more power?"

 

As far as the occupation of southern Lebanon, the Israelis already tried that and the result was Hezbollah. It would make more sense to put an international peacekeeping force there rather than the Israeli army. The complicated question is whether the current war there will weaken or strength the current Lebanese government. They wanted to disarm Hezbollah as much as Israel did, but they are pretty weak. And Syria is using this conflict to regain a foothold in Lebanon. So the question is, is Israel making it harder or easier for Syria to regain control of the country? I don't have an answer to that one.

[N DeWood]

TSM,

 

It's OK TSM, the truth really hurts. I hope you enjoyed the article.

 

Nick Woods

 

Nick, you are so naive, gullible, ignorant and plain stupid that I won't dignify any of your ridiculous posts with a response.

 

I'm through with this stupid conversation.

[Jason Debus]

I see the same problem in this forum that is happening in the US government right now; not understanding the Middle East. I don't pretend to be an expert on the middle east or politics, but there are some basic misunderstandings:

 

All these world leaders want Isreal to call it off but I haven't heard anyone talk about how to deal with the root of the problem, Hezbollah.

Hezbollah was formed to combat Israeli occupation of Lebanon, so the roots go deeper.

 

You just isolated the problem, Hezbolah is NOT the government of Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a political party just like the Republicans (or Democrats, etc.) except that they are armed. They represent something like 20% of the Lebanese government.

 

What Israel needs to do is to conquer Southern Lebanon, kick out the terrorists and then Israel needs to build permanent settlements in Southern Lebanon.

Why, so that this can go on forever? If Israel observed the 1949 border agreements there would be a lot less friction in the region. Invading countries ala Iraq is not the answer, it just creates more terrorists. I think David's on the right track when he asks 'who gains power'?

[Guest Paul Wizikowski]

"I would like to see Isreal reach out to the government of Lebenon and together the two entities work it out."

 

You just isolated the problem, Hezbolah is NOT the government of Lebanon. I'm sure Israel could negotiate with the legitimate government of Lebanon. They can't negotiate with Hezbolah (sp?)

 

R,

 

 

Technically they are a part of the Lebenon government, though far from a majority. Just to further clarify my perspective, I would like to see Isreal reach out to the Lebenon government to help them root out the mostly unwanted Hezbollah militants and to help rebuild Lebenon from this conflict. The Lebanese have stated their desire to remove Hezbollah but they can't for fear of another civil war.

 

As you can probably tell I am all for the retaliatory attacks against Hezbollah. If Isreal will do more than destroy the Hezbollah strongholds but then be an ally of the governement of Lebenon perhaps this struggle could ease. Right now Isreal is alone in that area. There is so much bad blood, so much history, with so many versions of territory lines that I don't think you could ever get either side to settle for any past agreement. The point is Isreal is punishing Lebenon for their inability to remove Hezbollah instead of helping Lebenon remove Hezbollah. And that I feel is their mistake.

 

On a side note, Isreal has expressed their desire to not reoccupy southern Lebenon and I believe they will leave. However, it remains to be seen what some international peacekeeping force will look like and what if any kind of peace it will be able to keep there.

[Jonathan Spear]

I'm an American citizen, born & raised in Skokie,IL. For the past year and a half I've been living in Israel as a volunteer. I met a 21 year old drummer last year at a gig at a local high school. Smart, sweet kid, great spirit, extremely talented individual. Last week he was killed by a bunch of barbaric cowards wearing rags on their heads.

 

Why? Because he fulfilled his duty as an Israeli citizen and joined the IDF. :angry:.. :(

 

My daily life consists of at least three blasting sirens a day. Each time a siren goes off I have to drop what I'm doing and run for the nearest bomb shelter. Supposedly, after a siren goes off you have 30-60 seconds to find shelter. Several rockets (filled with ball bearings curteousy of Syria) have exploded and done massive damage not far from where I live. And let me tell you, I do not live in some f-----g desert with a bunch of camel jockeys. Israel is as modern as Skokie, New York, Chicago and Dallas.

 

In case you pro-muslim retards can't grasp this simple fact, let me simplify it again:

 

Hizbollah and Palestinian TERRORISTS targets INNOCENT ISRAELI CIVILIANS, hoping to (in the words of Haniya and Nasrallah themselves) "kill as many Zionists as possible".

 

The Israeli army on the other hand, is using it's right to defend itself and target terrorists, weapons caches and missle silos.

 

It's hard to go after Hizbollah terrorists when they FIRE THEIR MISSLES FROM CIVILIAN HOMES in Lebanon.

 

Last week two Arab-Israeli children died in a Hizbolla rocket attack (direct hit) and Nasrallah "apologized" to their father, claiming his children died as "shahids" (holy martyrs).

 

The 100+ Beheadings (including two 16 year old girls), 9/11, the London bombings, Beslan..

 

These aren't human beings we're dealing with.

[N DeWood]

Gareth,

 

A few quick lessons, and I'll try to make them simple:

 

1) Never ascribe blame on an entire group of people, religion, faith, color, etc., for anything.

 

2) The same here. There are many leaders of the Zionist (whether Christains or Jews) movement who have tremendous sway when it comes to U.S. Foreign Policy in the middle east. They are as rascist and fascists as the neocons in the Bush Administration, hence more wars and suffering, and refugees. This has nothing to do with the Jewish religion, which like every other religion teaches tolerance and respect as I have learned from reading the old testament.

 

3) Finally, if you are planning to use the predicatable "anti-semite" accusation, please note that I've learned this from a very brigh and kind Jewish Professor during several political science courses back in my college years. I would be more than happy to refer you to his work if you would like to read.

 

4) Finally, sense of sustice has no religious or ethnic boundaries. What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong. Making fun of refugees and degrading Arabs by people like you and TSM is wrong.

 

So Gareth and TSM, know the facts, read up on reality, and respect other people, and quit thinking like Bush or in your case Gareth like Blair. Finally, I am always reminded by the edict: "No Justice, No Peace."

 

Nick Woods

 

 

Nick one of your quotes is hear say the other is from ONE nut case.... your point is ?

 

or is your point that JEWS are the problem ? , if thats what you think have the guts to say it.

[Jonathan Spear]

Screw you, Nick. You wouldn't last two seconds were I live.

 

HYPOCRITE.

[Jonathan Spear]

And back to the original topic, Al Jazeera should be sued, banned, outlawed and tried in court.

 

They did air beheading videos and hostage pleas.

 

They fuel terrorism, spread hatred and are as anti-semetic and anti-West as Osamma Bin Laden.

[N DeWood]

TSM, you are one little fascist there, aint ya. :P

Gotta admit, the pain of the truth is seeping in, no?

 

Screw you, Nick. You wouldn't last two seconds were I live.

 

HYPOCRITE.

[James Steven Beverly]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing there -- the level of anti-semiticism is staggering.

 

I just don't see the U.S. of late trying to dissuade their paranoia by acting as fair and impartial agents for peace and not taking sides.

 

Honestly, does anyone here really think Isreal will eliminate Hezbollah in the current war in Lebanon? Or make Hamas less popular by attacking Gaza? I'm not saying that Isreal wasn't provoked by the kidnappings, but the question is whether this is the most effective way of securing their borders. Are they ever going to feel safe as long as they keep destroying the Palestinian (and now Lebanese) infrastrucure, government, and economy, creating thousands of unemployed youth free to join armed resistance groups?

 

Ya know Dave, Isreal might have been a bit more reasonable had Al Jezzera not broadcast the beheading of other kidnapped prisoners on world-wide television. They knew those guys were dead the moment they were taken and the also understand the only thing these guys respect is brute force. That's why I feel Al Jezzera is a dangerous entity in the middle east. The terrorists forced Isreal to act. Isreal has tried time and rime again to reason with these exremists and bent over backwards to secure a peaceful co-existence with their neighbors. The Arab extremists have refused every olive branch offered. They will be satisfied with nothing less than the complete destruction of Isreal and all those who support her. They are the true obsticles to peace in the middle east not Isreal or us and entities like Al Jezzera only aid them in thier goal.

 

"I hate Terrorists. I hate Irish terrorisists I hate Chechneian terrorists. I hate American Terrorists. I hate Itailian Terrorists. I Hate Bosnian terrorists. I hate German terrorist."

 

Well now you open up a new issue, how do we define a "terrorist?"

 

Technically the Americans who threw the tea into the Boston harbour where a bunch of terrorists by any technical definition, yet every American history book I've read celebrates them as heroes. So can terrorists be heroes to one group of people and bad guys to another? It seems they can.

 

Not unless the damn tea exploded, dude, and killed innocent by-standers many of whom where also Americans.

[Gareth Munden]

Gareth,

 

A few quick lessons, and I'll try to make them simple:

 

1) Never ascribe blame on an entire group of people, religion, faith, color, etc., for anything.

 

2) The same here. There are many leaders of the Zionist (whether Christains or Jews) movement who have tremendous sway when it comes to U.S. Foreign Policy in the middle east. They are as rascist and fascists as the neocons in the Bush Administration, hence more wars and suffering, and refugees. This has nothing to do with the Jewish religion, which like every other religion teaches tolerance and respect as I have learned from reading the old testament.

 

3) Finally, if you are planning to use the predicatable "anti-semite" accusation, please note that I've learned this from a very brigh and kind Jewish Professor during several political science courses back in my college years. I would be more than happy to refer you to his work if you would like to read.

 

4) Finally, sense of sustice has no religious or ethnic boundaries. What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong. Making fun of refugees and degrading Arabs by people like you and TSM is wrong.

 

So Gareth and TSM, know the facts, read up on reality, and respect other people, and quit thinking like Bush or in your case Gareth like Blair. Finally, I am always reminded by the edict: "No Justice, No Peace."

 

Nick Woods

Nick

I don't lessons from any one, least of all you.

1) I never blamed anyones colour etc

2) since when has Zionist been a dirty word?. A Zionist is someone who wants a homeland. Zionists are not rascist are fascists, what a nasty thing to say. Do you know nothing, Zionisim IS the Jewish Religion read the Torah.

3) I think I may have spoken to more then the one BRIGHT Jew that happened to cross your path

4) when did I MAKE FUN of Refugges and DEGRADE Arabs ?, thing you need to take that back.

[Guest]

"Not unless the damn tea exploded, dude, and killed innocent by-standers many of whom where also Americans."

 

HUH? Capt. Video??????? Perhaps you can clarify this rather cryptic statement.

 

You take the "typical" American attitude in all things, when "we" do it, it's right. When others do it, it's wrong.

 

My guess is you would be quite irate if you heard about American citizens joining foreign armies. And yet as I pointed out 33, 000 foreigners serve in the US military. And apparently that's just fine with the US gov't. I wonder how the US gov't would treat American citizens who serve in foreign armies?

 

R,