Red rails sends red off course

[Michael Peploe]

Wow. Ease up on the harshness buddy. $150million films, am I supposed to tremble at that sort of experience. I give it to you that you probably know your films. I know mine. 5 minutes to set a camera up from tripod to handheld use is not a big burden (and looking at the design, thats about how long it would take.) Usually the first AC or operator can handle that while grip starts to move lights for the handheld setup.

 

I rarely scream on set. Screaming implys lack of control and planning. There are 4 or 5 takes during one setup that I have to be planning the next one. When it comes time to move, it can be sequenced easily to get a quick turn around with little money or time. I like to control effeciency rather than scream.

 

Thanks for the lesson though, I always enjoy being belittled by a total stranger who has never seen my work. (haha, just kidding, it's really annoying.)

 

 

Yeah that was a might harsh. The money quote wasn't written to impress but relevant info to my experience regarding this topic I thought was being questioned in previous posts. I live in two film worlds. You say that you're a director of photography and on your sets operators setup the camera and grips move lights. I hope that was a typo and not your lack of understanding of crew positions. And for sure you don't want to be on a union set thinking like that.

You should feel fortunate to have that size crew too. Others aren't as fortunate. You're description of your setup maybe because its your only experience but some of us have to go from room to car to hallway to dolly back to car and you've got three hours to get all your shots and the car has to be leave in 10 minutes and you're the operater/DP/ gaffer/ elctrician/grip and oh man the matte box zoom you've got on is way to big and crowded for the car shots so you gotta go and change all that out yourself because the AC is busy disengaging all the wiring and stuff ffrom the RED Rail. Oh and the hard drive is filled up too. 5 minutes? And as Brian said , documetary work hindered by time could be a nightmare. It isn't as black and white as you'd like to make it out to be, unless your only experience is as black and white.

Lets end this. For those that aren't completely happy with the rail sytem lets be productive helping RED with suggestions of different camera rigs for the independent, small crew, little money filmmakers whether this current version can be modified for it or not. Suggest before they finalize. They say they are listening so suggest away.

[David Mullen ASC]

You guys are arguing over the convenience of using a camera system that doesn't exist yet, so what's the point? Until RED finalizes the sensor / processing / recording system, the body design will still be in flux.

 

I understand Jonathan's point that most existing camera technology, big and small, can be used by an indie production -- I just disagreed with his wording, that practicality and camera set-up time wasn't a factor in indie filmmaking. I don't think he meant to imply that an indie filmmaker shouldn't consider whether his shooting methods are practical or time-consuming, but that's how it came out.

 

I've shot many indie films in 35mm, but I also can say that it's not the ideal format / camera system for all types of productions.

[Michael Collier]

Yeah that was a might harsh. The money quote wasn't written to impress but relevant info to my experience regarding this topic I thought was being questioned in previous posts. I live in two film worlds. You say that you're a director of photography and on your sets operators setup the camera and grips move lights. I hope that was a typo and not your lack of understanding of crew positions. And for sure you don't want to be on a union set thinking like that.

You should feel fortunate to have that size crew too. Others aren't as fortunate. You're description of your setup maybe because its your only experience but some of us have to go from room to car to hallway to dolly back to car and you've got three hours to get all your shots and the car has to be leave in 10 minutes and you're the operater/DP/ gaffer/ elctrician/grip and oh man the matte box zoom you've got on is way to big and crowded for the car shots so you gotta go and change all that out yourself because the AC is busy disengaging all the wiring and stuff ffrom the RED Rail. Oh and the hard drive is filled up too. 5 minutes? And as Brian said , documetary work hindered by time could be a nightmare. It isn't as black and white as you'd like to make it out to be, unless your only experience is as black and white.

Lets end this. For those that aren't completely happy with the rail sytem lets be productive helping RED with suggestions of different camera rigs for the independent, small crew, little money filmmakers whether this current version can be modified for it or not. Suggest before they finalize. They say they are listening so suggest away.

 

I am sorry to imply I was questioning your experience in my first post you responded to, I actually had not read all the previous posts prior to writting mine, I just scanned to get a general idea what the feeling was on the rails. I just didn't think it would take 30 minutes to set up (I think it looks complicated, but when you consider what has to be built, it seems like a quick job to set up)

 

Also, I do respect the size films you work on. Thats great and I know its as a result of decades of work (which I am more impressed with a decade of dedication than a dollar amount on a budget line), I have a goal to work on larger films some day. I just took offence to what I infered to be a 'I work real films, so I know better than you' I hear that tone a lot (even within my small production community) so I always have to stand up, as the underdog.

 

The grip thing, that was not a typeo, and is really more the size/experience of my crews. I get some good ENG shooters working a set, but they know nothing about the film making. Nobody is skilled enough to really matter what you call them (as they all work every department). So I call everyone grip in the camera dept. (other than first AC and camera OP). I like to keep everyone on an even keel by giving them the same title. I do keep my sets non-union given my budgets. I am also usually (if the job is produced through my production company) the co-director/DP. Its a strange set-up, but I am telling the story through camera and blocking. The other co-director (also could be called acting director or coach) preps the actors while I manage my role as DP. Then when frame is set we can move the actors in, I give them a final run through for tweeks and we shoot it.

 

I don't feel lucky to have the size crew I get, its more a respect thing. Good friends I know that take the time to work for me for food/gas/and a little money, that deserves a lot of respect. Since we don't have the kind of crew it takes to shoot from the hip, everything is very carefully planned so there is never a question of what to do (and to minimize the time it takes to shoot) I also have to work in tight time crunches (location work is usually at the convinience of the locations owner for little pay, so I have to stick to my time estimate)

 

 

I also set up my sets to be as black and white as possible. If we are going from handheld to car to tripod, I know that going into the day, and can have a someone go pre-rig the car while we finnish handheld, or get the tripod set up. I know what will need doing and how long it should take. I like to keep people moving, so nobody is waiting and we hit the setup times I had laid out prior to shooting. People in alaska are rarely career-film makers (otherwise they wouldn't be living in alaska) so I end up making things very easy for them.

 

My assumption of 5 minutes was just based on just setting up a bare Red on the rail (based on my experience with similar shoulder mounts for betacams and DV cameras I have used) the ones I have used have a quick-mount to make placing the camera quick and easy. Then batteries, lens and hooking up a hard-drive, should be as simple to set up as an HVX-200 with a firestore on the back (each one has to be mounted and a cable or two run to the body). I didn't mean to imply that 5 minutes would accomplish anything other than taking the camera and put it on the rails so its ready to shoot. Worse comes to worse I would give everyone a cigarette break and do it myself (gets the job done, and the crew will be more energized when it comes time to shoot).

 

I understand the point you make for docs. I don't see the Red as a doc camera. Perhaps one day they will get a cage for it that makes doc work easy, but I am only thinking of the indie film maker (the first big client the Red will get). When I shoot ENG (my day job) I have a camera set up the way I like it and I don't change much of anything on it while shooting.

 

I understand that in my size of productions, I can afford to do my productions my way (and a more traditional workflow would be more a hinderance). The only people I have to answer to is some backers or underwritters if anyone, so as long as at the end of the day, I have my shots, they are happy. I know I will have some adjusting to do when I get to california and start working in more professional movies, but its all symantics really at this point. (it doesnt matter what it takes to get the final image, only the final image matters)

 

The only suggestion I have for Red is to say: make the rail system with a quick release plate. Mounting the camera should take no more than 20 seconds. Record and VF setup should take the most time (and if connectors could be pre-rigged semi-permanently on the rails, that would help setup time, similar to how booms have the cable allready inside the pole)

[Jim Jannard]

David... voice of reason. The camera is quickly and infinitely configurable. Maybe we threw everone off by the picture of the Mothership, which was just to show that everything can work together in any combination. It really never would, but that wasn't the point. We are listening and we'll present better next time. Of course there is a top handle. And you can have nothing but the body and top handle if you like. And you will be able to go from shoulder to tripod in 5 sec. or less. We are still showing "sketches". The body has already changed twice from what we showed at IBC. The rest of the system is now going through a weight loss program.

 

I guess the unusual part is that we are showing the process. Nothing is locked down yet. But we are getting close. We'll show next round in a month or so.

 

Jim

Edited September 10, 2006 by Jim Jannard

[Michael Peploe]

David... voice of reason. The camera is quickly and infinitely configurable. Maybe we threw everone off by the picture of the Mothership, which was just to show that everything can work together in any combination. It really never would, but that wasn't the point. We are listening and we'll present better next time. Of course there is a top handle. And you can have nothing but the body and top handle if you like. And you will be able to go from shoulder to tripod in 5 sec. or less. We are still showing "sketches". The body has already changed twice from what we showed at IBC. The rest of the system is now going through a weight loss program.

 

I guess the unusual part is that we are showing the process. Nothing is locked down yet. But we are getting close. We'll show next round in a month or so.

 

Jim

 

 

You know I realize that these things are still in the deveolpment stage. I know that RED has major DP's that they are consulting with too. (Maybe thats the problem. Slightly joking)), I know nothing is finalized. I know the system is modular. RED keeps saying that they are listening. You show a picture though that is a radical departure in my opinion of the direction you were going with your first pics which are not on your site anymore.

I just wanted to make sure you hadn't abandoned the idea of a simple configuration for hand holding the thing, putting it on your shoulder and that there is onboard internal recording and battery placement. Can that be answered now? I personally don't want a system where I have to connect wires to external stoarge and power items. I don't want to spend time setting up and counterbalancing a shoulder rig. As options, yes. I never had to do it with an SR and I don't want to do it with RED. Thats all.

 

The fact that you are stripping weight is fantastic. The lighter the better. And how about calling D.A. Pennebaker, or Albert Maysles for their ideas if you haven't already. They have been around long enough and outside the Hollywood system. Indie filmmakers of experience who could really offer some great input.They've lived with cameras on their shoulders.

[Brian Drysdale]

I've seen another picture of the rail system, in which the length of the rails can be changed depending on lens/battery combination. This makes sense, although the system will have to be manufactured to a high standard to avoid every day wear and tear introducing a "wobble" factor. Hopefully, the short rail position will be clear of all the extreme wide angle lenses' angle of view.

 

I also noticed the top handle in this other diagram.

 

However, there didn't yet seem to be a method of mounting a follow focus on lightweight support bars. The current layout might cause problems mounting the follow focus close enough to engage the gear on a prime lens. Unless the rail bars out the front are same the dimensions/position as standard L/W bars and the handles are mounted as per the Aaton XTR on the support bars.

 

If you're showing the process, you'll be at risk of people making comments on details that are already on your check list. I guess that's viral advertising for you.

[Michael Peploe]

David... voice of reason. The camera is quickly and infinitely configurable. Maybe we threw everone off by the picture of the Mothership, which was just to show that everything can work together in any combination. It really never would, but that wasn't the point. We are listening and we'll present better next time. Of course there is a top handle. And you can have nothing but the body and top handle if you like. And you will be able to go from shoulder to tripod in 5 sec. or less. We are still showing "sketches". The body has already changed twice from what we showed at IBC. The rest of the system is now going through a weight loss program.

 

I guess the unusual part is that we are showing the process. Nothing is locked down yet. But we are getting close. We'll show next round in a month or so.

 

Jim

 

 

You know I realize that these things are still in the deveolpment stage. I know that RED has major DP's that they are consulting with too. (Maybe thats the problem. Slightly joking)), I know nothing is finalized. I know the system is modular. But RED keeps saying that they are listening. You show a picture though that is a radical departure in my opinion of the direction you were going with your first pics which are not on your site anymore.

I just wanted to make sure you hadn't abandoned the idea of a simple configuration for hand holding the thing, putting it on your shoulder and that there is onboard internal recording and battery placement. Can that be answered now? I personally don't want a system where I have to connect wires to external stoarge and power items. I don't want to spend time setting up and counterbalancing a shoulder rig. As options, yes. I never had to do it with an SR and I don't want to do it with RED. Thats all.

 

The fact that you are stripping weight is fantastic. The lighter the better. And how about calling D.A. Pennebaker, Frederick Wiseman,or Albert Maysles for their ideas if you haven't already. They have been around long enough and outside the Hollywood system. Indie filmmakers of experience who could really offer some great input.They've lived with cameras on their shoulders.

[David Mullen ASC]

It seems to me that the basic Arri 416 or Aaton-16 size & shape, and ability to take standard accessories like matteboxes, onboard monitors, etc. is a good model to follow.

 

But since this is a digital camera, unless they are adding an optical viewfinder (which seems to not be part of the design), then you'll be configuring an attached electronic viewfinder or LCD screen for viewing while handholding.

[Mr. Shannon W. Rawls]

If it ain't one thing it's another.

 

So now we're discussing the design. So now the cage is the new problem......OK, well, I shoot on average 2 indie projects per month. This is what I do for a living. It's not a hobby. So if you ask me.....and that's only if you're asking.... The "CAGED" idea is kinda revolutionary.

 

Some of you make it seem like the red camera will have to be stripped down to pieces before you make a move.

 

The DP, Camera Op & AC are one of the most efficient crewmembers I have ever seen. Asside from the DP collaborating with the Director and the Gaffer for the 'look' of the next shot, the camera department will be snacking @ craft services eating cookies while waiting on the G&E department who will surely NOT be 'ready'. In the INDIE WORLD, I have never seen the 'camera' deparment to be the last ones to setup a shot based on the design of the camera rig. It's always Grip & Electric, Art, Wardrobe, Makeup or the actors themselves that's the hold up. So why is this even a discussion topic?

 

I could see if this was a BOX style studio camera head trying to pass as a cinema style indie camcorder, but it's not.

 

The reason I say it's revolutionary is because, I can't see it slowing down my 'setup' times anymore then my Canon XL-H1's already do or my 'many' other cameras before did. If the difference between going from sticks to handheld to a dolly and then back to a tripod on a red system vs. my XL-H1 system is only a few extra seconds, then Pshhhhh, whatever.

 

The benefit however is the fact that I can confidentaly mount accesories anywhere I want on that red cage whereas on my current camera, all I get as a hotshoe (since the backplate is being used by a battery system). My CURRENT DILEMA with the XL-H1 (and similar style cameras) is the fact that I want to mount a Marshall 8" HD-SDI monitor on the hotshoe. And as you all know that is a scary thought, because all day long I am 'worrying' if the hotshoe will snap off due to the size & weight of the monitor. Alternatives to the hotshoe is $costly$ and cumbersome. Isreli arms are big and require extra mounting gear. What about a place to put "two" wireless radio receivers to get reference from the mixer as well? What about adding a light as well? How about slapping on a Direct-To-Edit recorder like a firestore? MAN, by the time I get all this on my XL-H1, it'll have a "CAGE" of its own. *smile*

 

However with the RED cage, I can mount these accesories with ease and LEAVE 'EM THERE. All I would need to do is simply store the camera system differently in my equipment cage @ my studio and transport it in an accomodating roadie case.

 

I realize a design like the red cage is something most shooters are not used to. But neither was the odd size of your Treo 650 cellphone until you realized all that it can do. The benefits outweighed the size, and it looked 'cool' so you adapted. I am sure you will adopt to this new Cage style camera.

 

Now if you want to film your little nephews birthday or maybe capture your daughter' graduation ceremony, then red and it's cage system may not be the camera for you. if you are on the Serengeti Plains in a camouflage tent and you witness a pair of wild Lions preparing to mate and all you have is a few seconds to setup the shot before their finished then red and it's cage system may not be the camera for you. If you are chasing Brad & Angelina around trying to get the first video footage of their upcoming wedding, then red and it's cage system may not be the camera for you.

But if you are a competent and confident motion picture professional with experience and knowledge and you properly engage in pre-production planning and then I am sure the cage will be a blessing to your workflow, not a curse.

 

I'm curious what people thought about Stationwagons when they were first introduced back in the day. *smile* I wonder if they complained about it not fitting in the garage or didn't buy one because they were scared to parrallel park the thing.

 

This thread seems to be another one of those threads that the people at red will vindicate themselves with in the end, but you all will forget to 'apologize' when it's all worked out. instead you will find something else to complain about.

[Michael Peploe]

If it ain't one thing it's another.

 

So now we're discussing the design. So now the cage is the new problem......OK, well, I shoot on average 2 indie projects per month. This is what I do for a living. It's not a hobby. So if you ask me.....and that's only if you're asking.... The "CAGED" idea is kinda revolutionary.

 

Some of you make it seem like the red camera will have to be stripped down to pieces before you make a move.

 

The DP, Camera Op & AC are one of the most efficient crewmembers I have ever seen. Asside from the DP collaborating with the Director and the Gaffer for the 'look' of the next shot, the camera department will be snacking @ craft services eating cookies while waiting on the G&E department who will surely NOT be 'ready'. In the INDIE WORLD, I have never seen the 'camera' deparment to be the last ones to setup a shot based on the design of the camera rig. It's always Grip & Electric, Art, Wardrobe, Makeup or the actors themselves that's the hold up. So why is this even a discussion topic?

 

I could see if this was a BOX style studio camera head trying to pass as a cinema style indie camcorder, but it's not.

 

The reason I say it's revolutionary is because, I can't see it slowing down my 'setup' times anymore then my Canon XL-H1's already do or my 'many' other cameras before did. If the difference between going from sticks to handheld to a dolly and then back to a tripod on a red system vs. my XL-H1 system is only a few extra seconds, then Pshhhhh, whatever.

 

The benefit however is the fact that I can confidentaly mount accesories anywhere I want on that red cage whereas on my current camera, all I get as a hotshoe (since the backplate is being used by a battery system). My CURRENT DILEMA with the XL-H1 (and similar style cameras) is the fact that I want to mount a Marshall 8" HD-SDI monitor on the hotshoe. And as you all know that is a scary thought, because all day long I am 'worrying' if the hotshoe will snap off due to the size & weight of the monitor. Alternatives to the hotshoe is $costly$ and cumbersome. Isreli arms are big and require extra mounting gear. What about a place to put "two" wireless radio receivers to get reference from the mixer as well? What about adding a light as well? How about slapping on a Direct-To-Edit recorder like a firestore? MAN, by the time I get all this on my XL-H1, it'll have a "CAGE" of its own. *smile*

 

However with the RED cage, I can mount these accesories with ease and LEAVE 'EM THERE. All I would need to do is simply store the camera system differently in my equipment cage @ my studio and transport it in an accomodating roadie case.

 

I realize a design like the red cage is something most shooters are not used to. But neither was the odd size of your Treo 650 cellphone until you realized all that it can do. The benefits outweighed the size, and it looked 'cool' so you adapted. I am sure you will adopt to this new Cage style camera.

 

Now if you want to film your little nephews birthday or maybe capture your daughter' graduation ceremony, then red and it's cage system may not be the camera for you. if you are on the Serengeti Plains in a camouflage tent and you witness a pair of wild Lions preparing to mate and all you have is a few seconds to setup the shot before their finished then red and it's cage system may not be the camera for you. If you are chasing Brad & Angelina around trying to get the first video footage of their upcoming wedding, then red and it's cage system may not be the camera for you.

But if you are a competent and confident motion picture professional with experience and knowledge and you properly engage in pre-production planning and then I am sure the cage will be a blessing to your workflow, not a curse.

 

I'm curious what people thought about Stationwagons when they were first introduced back in the day. *smile* I wonder if they complained about it not fitting in the garage or didn't buy one because they were scared to parrallel park the thing.

 

This thread seems to be another one of those threads that the people at red will vindicate themselves with in the end, but you all will forget to 'apologize' when it's all worked out. instead you will find something else to complain about.

 

 

You know Shannon I think you are the real instigator. If Red says they are listening does that mean they are listening to applause only? If they say they are listening does that not mean that some people might have a problem with their design? If they say they are listening doesn't that mean that i should voice a concern? You're good with the design? Fine. You've done your job now move along.

[Mr. Shannon W. Rawls]

Am I?

As I search back to page 1, i see the very 1st post happens to be yours. I re-read the post *just to be safe*, and you have a lot of nerve calling 'me' an instigator? The very title of this thread you created is untactful and borderline flame.

 

I think they should listen to CONSTRUCTIVE crtisizm, not public bashing about how their design team 'slapped' someting together and continuous discord about how the 'big companies' got it right and Red is wrong with their cumbersome and weakly designed rail system. Da hell??

 

If you think someone breath stinks, do you go shouting it to the crowd and pointing fingers at them laughing. or do you provide them with your tactful and respectful opinion on how they can improve the smell of their breath and maybe offer them a tic-tac?

 

C'mon man, please voice your concern, but be professional about it.

[Michael Peploe]

Am I?

As I search back to page 1, i see the very 1st post happens to be yours. I re-read the post *just to be safe*, and you have a lot of nerve calling 'me' an instigator? The very title of this thread you created is untactful and borderline flame.

 

I think they should listen to CONSTRUCTIVE crtisizm, not public bashing about how their design team 'slapped' someting together and continuous discord about how the 'big companies' got it right and Red is wrong with their cumbersome and weakly designed rail system. Da hell??

 

If you think someone breath stinks, do you go shouting it to the crowd and pointing fingers at them laughing. or do you provide them with your tactful and respectful opinion on how they can improve the smell of their breath and maybe offer them a tic-tac?

 

C'mon man, please voice your concern, but be professional about it.

 

 

You know Shannon I remember your passionate bashing of a certain Panasonic camera that got you banned and smacked down from several boards. Real professional. I realize you look for a fights, because that seems to be the way you operate, under the guise of professionalism, so I'll just say "yes Shannon you are right".

 

To David, yes the 416 and the Aaton are in the right direction and hope they are listening. The viewfinder/ LCD is an issue. It says viewfinder is optional on the RED page so i would take it it comes with an LCD. If money is an issue in purchasing the viewfinder I hope that the lcd can be configured far enough away (with Hood) minus the cage that it can be used shoulder mounted.

Edited September 10, 2006 by Michael Peploe

[Mr. Shannon W. Rawls]

When lying becomes part of someones point because they have nothing else to say....the discussion is over.

[Michael Peploe]

When lying becomes part of someones point because they have nothing else to say....the discussion is over.

 

If you accuse someone of lying then all I say is take a quick trip to the archives on DVinfo and dvxuser. You should know better. I remember someone mentioning legal action and I remember your apology. You are right about one thing the discussion is over.

[Brian Drysdale]

I don't mind having attachment points on the camera, I just don't want them on my side of the camera, where I'm operating. A camera with bit's of metal sticking out that I can bang my head against during a fast move i can do without. An asymmetric "cage" on which you can attach accessories is fine, they tend to go on the side away from the camera operator anyway.

 

The Aaton or Arri 416 is the best layout for a camera of this size - they also take a range of accessories. One extra from the world of ENG would for removable shoulder strap.

[Tomas Koolhaas]

Am I?

As I search back to page 1, i see the very 1st post happens to be yours. I re-read the post *just to be safe*, and you have a lot of nerve calling 'me' an instigator? The very title of this thread you created is untactful and borderline flame.

 

I think they should listen to CONSTRUCTIVE crtisizm, not public bashing about how their design team 'slapped' someting together and continuous discord about how the 'big companies' got it right and Red is wrong with their cumbersome and weakly designed rail system. Da hell??

 

If you think someone breath stinks, do you go shouting it to the crowd and pointing fingers at them laughing. or do you provide them with your tactful and respectful opinion on how they can improve the smell of their breath and maybe offer them a tic-tac?

 

C'mon man, please voice your concern, but be professional about it.

 

Hello Shannon,

It makes me laugh, every time you comment it seems to be to start some kind of internet altercation with someone. Firstly, I should say I agree with your first post, I dont think the Red (although it hasn't been built yet, so who really knows) will be for everyone, if you are doing some hardcore gorilla run-and-gun handheld no AC, hardly any rehearsel low budget indie then this camera probably wont be the best for you.

The thing that I don't agree with is the way you always seem to adress your posts. Firstly you constantly disrespect people by talking to them as if they dont know their arse form their elbows, you dont know what people have done so don't assume you've done more! Secondly you always go on hyperbolicaly about all the stuff you've done and that you own 'Many' cameras -so what! you own some HDV/DV cameras, many people here (including myself) own super-16/35mm film cameras and we dont post with the level of arogance that you do!

Thirdly, I remember getting into it with you on another thread and you had 0 DP credits on IMDB (which of course has usually about a fifth of people's actual work on there, but 5 times 0 is still 0) and you even admitted you weren't a professional DP and shot mostly for fun. I dont have time to go and check again or find an exact quote from last time, and I am not trying to attack you or anything, because when you cut through the hyperboly and arrogance you actually make some good points and seem like an OK dude, I just dont understand why you insist on causing sensless offense with this rude tone when you could just make your point (often good ones) without all the bravado and arrogance and then no-one would need be annoyed by them.

Cheers.

[Michael Peploe]

.. if you are doing some hardcore gorilla run-and-gun handheld no AC, hardly any rehearsel low budget indie then this camera probably wont be the best for you...

 

Cheers.

 

 

This cam can be no different than any other in my view. I'm curious as to why you say this because that is my whole point in this thread at least for me. i want to make sure it is for those type of people. Its valid filmmaking. Cassavetes? Doc work? ENG? There is no reason why it can't be. Window the chip, slap a super 16mm zoom on and there you go. From the new pic which Mr. Jannard has clarified a little it will be able to be used run and gun.

I just don't want them to forget that kind of filmmaking and the new pic frightened me in to thinking they were taking it in a direction where this cam wasn't for that kind of filmmaking.

[mattuhry]

Whoa...

 

Seems like everybody is getting so wound up about this cage and rail... It's hardly make or break, just screw an Arri baseplate on and use the same Arri AKS you are using now. In fact, it would be cool if Red made a nice follow focus and matte box that were better/cheaper than Arri and Chroiziel.

 

The Red Camera has the misfortune of sitting at the confluence of eager amatuers "the DVX crowd" and working cinematographers who shoot film or HD as their primary job. You can tell which camp a person is in if they think the 17.5k price is far too expensive or way too cheap.

 

Much hype and smoke has been blown by the DVX crowd about the Red, yet it is hard to believe that they will ever spend 17.5k plus whatever for the 35mm format PL mount lens... (A beater set of zeiss super speeds is about 10k and a set of cooke s4's would run around 80k.) For this level of investment to make any sense you would need to have the kinds of jobs and clients that can support that level of investment ? meaning not corporate, wedding or sub-100k credit card indies.

 

Working cinematographers, when faced with the possibility of purchasing a camera like this are most likely asking themselves:

 

-Will I make money with it ? Will my clients pay enough to offfset the depriciation, insurance and

maintenance?

-Will the camera be a joy to use, like an Arricam LT? Or limiting and annoying, like an Arri 3?

-Are there functiona that will help me do my best work? Are the images better than ANY other camera

system I can talk my clients into paying for?

-Will my clients understand what to do when, as we wrap out, I hand them a firewire drive? I hope to be

prepping and shooting the next job as opposed to be consumed by providing tech support for editiorial.

 

There's probably a somewhat different list if you run a rental house...

 

I hope Jim J. and the guys at RED are considering some of these points. Let's keep focused of helping them make a functional camera that we want to own and use as opposed to bashing the rail and cage prototypes.

 

Matt Uhry

DP, LA IA 600

www.fuzby.com

[Mr. Shannon W. Rawls]

I remember getting into it with you on another thread

Ahhhh, my good friend Tomas. We meet again.

*smile*

I didn't start a fight. it was 3 pages of it before I even got here. Actually, the entire RED forum seems to be a cyber ultimate fihghting championship ring....with Jim Jannard being the man to beat. *smile*

 

So Tom, what do you think of the aesthetic design of the red and its cage?

 

 

----------------

Hi Matt, I've heard of you. Can't think of where, but I've heard of you somewhere. Maybe I've seen some of your work or you were the 'talk' of a round table discussion of people/producers praising your skills. Whe I think of it I'll let you know.

Edited September 10, 2006 by Mr. Shannon W. Rawls

[Tomas Koolhaas]

Ahhhh, my good friend Tomas. We meet again.

*smile*

I didn't start a fight. it was 3 pages of it before I even got here. Actually, the entire RED forum seems to be a cyber ultimate fihghting championship ring....with Jim Jannard being the man to beat. *smile*

 

So Tom, what do you think of the aesthetic design of the red and its cage?

----------------

Hi Matt, I've heard of you. Can't think of where, but I've heard of you somewhere. Maybe I've seen some of your work or you were the 'talk' of a round table discussion of people/producers praising your skills. Whe I think of it I'll let you know.

 

Shannon,

I dont mind the cage design, although I dont pay too much attention to it because it will probably change a million times before it actually gets built!

I agree with you that the idea of having designated areas to attach things like onboards and remotes would be very useful. It's simple for me, as long as it does the following the cage is good with me:

-Doesn't poke me in the face/eyes when doing handheld.

-Doesn't alienate the use of existing matte boxes, follow focuses, remotes etc..(I dont see why it should)

-Doesn't make it too cumbersome/unbalanced to use handheld.

-Being able to rest it on your knee while doing handheld is a big plus for me (I find myself doing that a lot too).

-A tophandle would be nice too.

-Doesn't take excesively long to reconfigure (although I dont see why it should).

 

I dont think the issue of reconfiguring it quickly is going to be that much of a problem personally.

This may piss poeple-off but here goes, I have shot many guerilla ultra low budget shoots (mostly DVX/XL-1/2) and I dont think they should intentionaly design the RED to exclude them at all, it's just my opinion that If a shoot is that low-budget and rushed that they can't afford the extra couple of minutes it might take, they probably don't really need to be shooting on a 4k Cam w/35mm sized chip (I am only talking narrative features/shorts here, not documentaries) because if you are shooting with no AC, run-and-gun with 35mm DOF and using a small onboard for focus you probably wont be getting PERFECT focus most of the time anyway, which would probably negate the benefits of having such high resolution in the first place, and secondly most ultra low-budget features shorts only get seen on TV screens off a DVD, or in small festivals that usually only have SD projectors, so why would you need 4k resolution (of course the more resolution the better, but it may be overkill in terms of time/cost versus result). Having said that, I think the camera will probably be great for all kinds of projects and Micheal, I agree that RED should make the camera as friendly as possible for all shoots, but my idea is that it may be more suited and targeted for more stable/traditional, yet still low budget, narrative shooting like those that may have used a super16mm or older 35mm cam (BL for example) if not for the RED, but who can still afford to have a 24" HD monitor and an AC or two, as opposed to shoots with a DV or HDV cam and a one man camera team.

I dont want to argue with anyone, that's just my opinion, I respect everyone else's though, no offense to anyone, even you shannon (haha only joking).

Cheers.

[Sam Wells]

My point is only that how "indie-friendly" (as in drama) a camera is has more to do with its cost/availability rather than how heavy or convenient it is to use. There are so many other factors in the choice that come before that.

 

AJB

 

OK, but in this case there's no reason for Red NOT to make it "indie" or anything else friendly; they don't have to, you know, work with the ~ pre-existing form factor of a Betacam (or 435 or Panaflex for that matter).

 

For the sake of argument, lets say I represent "hand held non-scripted-zen-in-the-moment" filmmaking (not neccesarily true, I can spend 5 hrs lighting a scene) and you represent "1 hour to set up a blimped 2C filmmaking" (probably not true either; for that matter your 35BL comes out of the Eclair NPR tradition to some extent).

 

Let's bring a hypothetical Steadicam op in here...

 

My point would be that something like, say, an Aaton XTR could accomodate all three of us quite nicely, ya know ?

 

-Sam

[Mr. Shannon W. Rawls]

it's just my opinion that If a shoot is that low-budget and rushed that they can't afford the extra couple f minutes it might take, they probably don't really need to be shooting on a 4k Cam w/35mm sized chip

I KNEW you would come back with a cold-blooded end-all be-all perfect answer! *smile*

 

That's my exact sentiments as well. Thank you for that perfect statement above.

 

And Tomas, I don't mean to demean anybody or argue either, so please don't beat me up for this, but can I say one last thing....

 

People complaining about the design of this camera and it's rail system reminds me of driving a HUMMER H1. NO ..... forget the Hummer. Better yet, it reminds me of Lamborghini making a $17,500 version of the 2007 Murciélago Roadster, and so now that it's affordable, potential buyers begin complaining to the manufacturer about why they designed the doors to open up skyward and how they now might not be able to get out of the car once they pull into their home garage. *smile* or maybe complain about why the car is so low to the ground and now it won't clear the speed bumps at their jobs parking lot like their old Chevy Camaro used to do so easily. Imagine complaining to Lamborghini about a brand spankin' new $17k Murciélago Roadster not having enough cup holders in it or the leather seats are too stiff or it's harder to shift gears then the big manufacturers sport cars are. Picture yourself crying because the back window is not as big as the one your old SUV had. *smile* That's what complaining about RED reminds me of.

 

My point is, people who drive Lamborghini's are of a different echelon of people. It's only when you make high priced items available to the masses @ a low price that you begin to hear the whinning and ghettoness roll in. New Lamborghini owners usually represent a different tax bracket then most, and they simply do not complain about frivolous things that Joe 6-pack does. Instead, they make tactful 'suggestions', but never complain or bash. They give their 'thoughts' and provide 'constructive critisizm', but you won't hear them slander or defame the manufacturer. They know what their getting before they get it.

 

Unless I am from another planet, as far as I can tell, the RED camera should cost about the same as a Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder does! However, Lamborghini(JJ) is making it available for $17,500 bucks! brand new, off the showroom floor! So why....*lord help us* ..... WHY are we complaining??

 

If you don't like the power, sheer speed, beauty, bragging rights, and craftsmanship of Lamborghini cars, then go buy a Honda Civic (which costs about $17,500 too!). Otherwise, chill out and give SUPPORT and HELP to the "INDIE" manufacturer who's trying their best to make us a 4K UHD camera for the price of a 42" flat screen HDTV in 2001.

 

Now if the manufacturer was a LIAR and misrepresented what they are offering the public, and dispatched agents to spread their gospel of bullcrap to try and convince/convert/coerce people into buying their fasley advertised products, then I think everyone knows that Shannon Rawls is one of the FIRST to get in their a$$ about it!!! but I have not seen or read this behavior from the people at RED.

 

So can't we all just kick back and enjoy the ride? Why is every single post in this RED forum full of attacks, doubt and people sowing seed of discord?

[Tomas Koolhaas]

I KNEW you would come back with a cold-blooded end-all be-all perfect answer! *smile*

 

That's my exact sentiments as well. Thank you for that perfect statement above.

 

And Tomas, I don't mean to demean anybody or argue either, so please don't beat me up for this, but can I say one last thing....

 

People complaining about the design of this camera and it's rail system reminds me of driving a HUMMER H1. NO ..... forget the Hummer. Better yet, it reminds me of Lamborghini making a $17,500 version of the 2007 Murciélago Roadster, and so now that it's affordable, potential buyers begin complaining to the manufacturer about why they designed the doors to open up skyward and how they now might not be able to get out of the car once they pull into their home garage. *smile* or maybe complain about why the car is so low to the ground and now it won't clear the speed bumps at their jobs parking lot like their old Chevy Camaro used to do so easily. Imagine complaining to Lamborghini about a brand spankin' new $17k Murciélago Roadster not having enough cup holders in it or the leather seats are too stiff or it's harder to shift gears then the big manufacturers sport cars are. Picture yourself crying because the back window is not as big as the one your old SUV had. *smile* That's what complaining about RED reminds me of.

 

My point is, people who drive Lamborghini's are of a different echelon of people. It's only when you make high priced items available to the masses @ a low price that you begin to hear the whinning and ghettoness roll in. New Lamborghini owners usually represent a different tax bracket then most, and they simply do not complain about frivolous things that Joe 6-pack does. Instead, they make tactful 'suggestions', but never complain or bash. They give their 'thoughts' and provide 'constructive critisizm', but you won't hear them slander or defame the manufacturer. They know what their getting before they get it.

 

Unless I am from another planet, as far as I can tell, the RED camera should cost about the same as a Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder does! However, Lamborghini(JJ) is making it available for $17,500 bucks! brand new, off the showroom floor! So why....*lord help us* ..... WHY are we complaining??

 

If you don't like the power, sheer speed, beauty, bragging rights, and craftsmanship of Lamborghini cars, then go buy a Honda Civic (which costs about $17,500 too!). Otherwise, chill out and give SUPPORT and HELP to the "INDIE" manufacturer who's trying their best to make us a 4K UHD camera for the price of a 42" flat screen HDTV in 2001.

 

Now if the manufacturer was a LIAR and misrepresented what they are offering the public, and dispatched agents to spread their gospel of bullcrap to try and convince/convert/coerce people into buying their fasley advertised products, then I think everyone knows that Shannon Rawls is one of the FIRST to get in their a$$ about it!!! but I have not seen or read this behavior from the people at RED.

 

So can't we all just kick back and enjoy the ride? Why is every single post in this RED forum full of attacks, doubt and people sowing seed of discord?

 

 

Hi,

Er I dont know much about cars but, I agree....I think (ghettoness?? is that a real word? haha).

Unless RED lied, then no-one should be pissed, or pre-judging them, I personally hope the RED IS all it claims it will be, and I hope it IS cheaper to rent and buy than the F900 ($1,200 per day is a bit steep I think).

That would be super good for me, even if the RED somehow only ended up (and I'm not suggesting it would or will) using a 35mm chip and PL mount lenses to record 1080 onto HDCAM, and was cheaper than the F900 I would still be super chuffed that I could use it when it came out (If anyone from RED is reading this, that was not a suggestion, I am just saying it would still be better than the F900 -thats all) so anything better than that is a bonus to me (4k -great!).

I agree that we should all chill on the agro on this thread, a cage design on a still hypothetical (not even prototypical) camera really is no need to start questioning each others experience or intelligence.

Peace be with you brothers.

[Jonathan Benny]

My point would be that something like, say, an Aaton XTR could accomodate all three of us quite nicely, ya know ?

 

Indeed it would. (love that camera hh).

 

We'll have to wait and see how this all turns out.

 

AJB

[Max Jacoby]

There are some pics with the Red in handheld configuration:

 

http://web.mac.com/mikedcurtis/iWeb/Site/I...-RedConfig.html

 

Two things come to mind:

 

- The whole setup looks seriously front heavy.

- If there is a cage around this camera, where will the operator's head go?