Jonathan Collins Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Here's a little backstory before we get to the heart of the question. I met my fiance in film school, she studied cinematography and I was focusing on producing. Graduated, moved from San Francisco down to Los Angeles. I got a job at a production company (staying somewhat in my area) but due to money problems, she wasn't able to stay in cinematography and has done more assisting/producing work. I know this has made her very sad, and it makes me sad. So, it looks like i have a project coming through and she may be able to take some time off and I want to try and get her a camera to get her back on her feet. At the moment, I'd like to get her a S16 Camera, but if I can't for cost reasons, I'll look at getting a camera that I know can be upgraded to S16 in the future. My budget is $5k, all in. What I'm looking for is the following: 1. Camera: S16 (Preferably) Sync Sound (This puts me looking at a NPR, Eclair II, or SR - other suggestions welcome) 2. Matte Box 3. Basic set of filters (ND, 85, 85A, etc) 4. Tripod 5. Handheld ability - She is a small girl, so ackwardness and weight of the camera can come into play. My favorite camera from school was an aaton, but I think that that would be out of my price range. (Is it?) Thanks for all the insights. It is greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Carroll Posted June 15, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted June 15, 2007 My favorite camera from school was an aaton, but I think that that would be out of my price range. (Is it?) I would seriously consider an Aaton LTR or LTR54 if your price range is $5000. Mitch Gross has an Aaton LTR54, Super 16, with three Super 16 mags, and the whole package has been recently overhauled by Abel Cine Tech in New York, and it has a video tap, for $7500. So I would not think $5000 for a package with two mags and no video tap would be out of the question. If your fiancée likes to hand hold, the Aaton is the best 16mm camera on the market for hand held work. Two of the other cameras you listed, NPR, Eclair II; will never be the camera an Aaton LTR is, and an Arriflex 16SR, though a really nice camera, is not going to be a good hand held camera for a woman who is described as "small". And a Super 16 conversion on an Arriflex 16SR done right is going to run you thousands of dollars. I would hold out for finding an Aaton LTR in Super 16. It will give your fiancée more options. -Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Collins Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 I would seriously consider an Aaton LTR or LTR54 if your price range is $5000. Mitch Gross has an Aaton LTR54, Super 16, with three Super 16 mags, and the whole package has been recently overhauled by Abel Cine Tech in New York, and it has a video tap, for $7500. So I would not think $5000 for a package with two mags and no video tap would be out of the question. If your fiancée likes to hand hold, the Aaton is the best 16mm camera on the market for hand held work. Two of the other cameras you listed, NPR, Eclair II; will never be the camera an Aaton LTR is, and an Arriflex 16SR, though a really nice camera, is not going to be a good hand held camera for a woman who is described as "small". And a Super 16 conversion on an Arriflex 16SR done right is going to run you thousands of dollars. I would hold out for finding an Aaton LTR in Super 16. It will give your fiancée more options. -Tim Thanks Tim. The input is much appreciated. I've been leaning towards the Eclair's mainly due to being able to get a little more for the money (I think I would be able to get her alittle more set-up on an Eclair than an aaton right off the bat due to money) but I am a huge aaton fan. My school mainly used Arris, which I liked, but the first time we had an aaton it was because all the arris were out and I fell in love. Anyhow, you feel a aaton without a matte box and/or a tripod would be better than going with an Eclair with a matte box and tripod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Carroll Posted June 15, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted June 15, 2007 Anyhow, you feel a aaton without a matte box and/or a tripod would be better than going with an Eclair with a matte box and tripod? No question. If you want her to be a camera owner, and want her to be able to shoot hand held, and you want Super 16, then I would definitely get the Aaton camera first, and add the matte box, tripod, etc. as funds permit. One thing to keep in mind. Look for a Super 16 Aaton LTR, as a regular 16 LTR would cost considerably to have a good conversion to Super 16. Good luck, -Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Collins Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 One thing to keep in mind. Look for a Super 16 Aaton LTR, as a regular 16 LTR would cost considerably to have a good conversion to Super 16. Good luck, -Tim I know you spoke of Mitch's LTR54, which I really wish I could swing, but that is a bit out for me..... How do you feel about the LTR 7 instead of a 54? Do you know what the key differences would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Carroll Posted June 15, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted June 15, 2007 I know you spoke of Mitch's LTR54, which I really wish I could swing, but that is a bit out for me..... How do you feel about the LTR 7 instead of a 54? Do you know what the key differences would be? I've got an LTR 7 that is one of the last 7's made. It's very close to an LTR 54 but without the 54 fps motor. Mine, like all LTR 7's, has the 32 fps motor. The earlier you go with the LTR 7 cameras the more issues you can run in to. The earlier ones were harder to convert to Super 16 (if I understand correctly, Nathan Milford would know more about this than I do), and there can be issues with the pulldown claws from the earlier cameras. Also the electronics were different. From my understanding, during the production of the whole LTR range, the cameras were gradually changing. So a late model LTR 7 like mine is very similar to an early model LTR 54, whereas an early model LTR 7 would be quite different from Mitch Gross's late model LTR 54. Make sense? -Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andres victorero Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Hi, I suggest you to go for a Eclair ACL 1.5 or 2 S16. I sold mine (ACL2) for 3000$. You can get one from ebay around 3000 $ but you will have to spend in a overhaul. At your price range (500 $) I think that is the best option. You must to add to the camera some lens (ALC accepts C mount, Nikon 35mm still, Arri bayonet, STD or PL lens with adaptor -a very wide lens option) some filters and a 3x3 or 4x4 matte box. I suggest you Eclair ACL 1.5 or 2, it can accept 400 ft mag, and it has a heavy duty motor with 24 and 25 sync and up to 72 fps. If you can afford a Aaton LTR7 go for it but the final package will be more expensive than 5000$ good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Collins Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 Make sense? -Tim Very much so! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck colburn Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 You didn't mention a lens/es. Do you already have them/s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Collins Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 You didn't mention a lens/es. Do you already have them/s? Thank for bringing that up. No, we don't have lenses. i thought I had listed that, but it seems I am very mistaken. I would, of course, love to get her primes, but i know that's not too realistic to start off and that I'd probably start with a zoom. Any thoughts, please share as I am eager to hear suggestions on lenses too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olex Kalynychenko Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 At the moment, I'd like to get her a S16 Camera, but if I can't for cost reasons, I'll look at getting a camera that I know can be upgraded to S16 in the future. My budget is $5k, all in. What I'm looking for is the following:1. Camera: S16 (Preferably) Sync Sound (This puts me looking at a NPR, Eclair II, or SR - other suggestions welcome) I recommend to draw attention on russian professional 16 mm cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M. This can be: - original Normal 16 version with 25 fps analog sync motor, - or modified Normal-16 with crystal sync speed motor, - or modified Super 16, Arri PL with crystal sync speed motor. Kinor-16 SX camera - pin registrated camera with reflex mirror disk, have 100 ft anfd 400 fy quick-change film magazine. The set of russian LOMO prime lenses can be from 6 mm up to 300 mm, zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm. Russian 16 OPF-12-1 10-100 zoom lens can be modify on Super 16 version with zoom range 12-120 mm. A some LOMO prime lenses can cover of Super 16 film gate too. About all technical sides of Kinor-16 ( and other russian cine camera ) can ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Downes Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 I'm a big fan of the russian designs. Very reliable cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oron Cohen Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 I recommend to draw attention on russian professional 16 mm cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M. This can be: - original Normal 16 version with 25 fps analog sync motor, - or modified Normal-16 with crystal sync speed motor, - or modified Super 16, Arri PL with crystal sync speed motor. Kinor-16 SX camera - pin registrated camera with reflex mirror disk, have 100 ft anfd 400 fy quick-change film magazine. The set of russian LOMO prime lenses can be from 6 mm up to 300 mm, zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm. Russian 16 OPF-12-1 10-100 zoom lens can be modify on Super 16 version with zoom range 12-120 mm. A some LOMO prime lenses can cover of Super 16 film gate too. About all technical sides of Kinor-16 ( and other russian cine camera ) can ask me. I think the Kinor is a very nice camera, very comfortable for hand-held work (very light compare to SR), and the prices are pretty low considering you are getting a modern design camera. But, and this is very important to note, I think that you cant really consider this camera as a sync sound camera, it is too loud, for me it is to loud even with a custom made barney. I wish maybe Olex can come up with a modify Kinor that would be quieter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Downes Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Good point. Hey Olex, want me to design a blimp for them? 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Collins Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 I think that you cant really consider this camera as a sync sound camera, it is too loud, for me it is to loud even with a custom made barney. That is a pretty important aspect. I really want to get something that gives he a wide range on what she can do, also why I'm really pushing for Super 16 or 16. Thanks for th info, I wasn't really too familiar with this camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olex Kalynychenko Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Good point. Hey Olex, want me to design a blimp for them? 8) The many filmmakers to use of Kinor-16 camera and ask about outside blimp for this camera. From my point of view, Kinor don't have too high noise, any case, the additional blimp can be good devise too. I know, the one user of Kinor create of blimp, but, i have not a information about result. I think, the design a blimp can be good idea. I can give a sizes and other technical information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oron Cohen Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 That is a pretty important aspect. I really want to get something that gives he a wide range on what she can do, also why I'm really pushing for Super 16 or 16. Thanks for th info, I wasn't really too familiar with this camera. Happy I could help. For the camera choice, I agree with the other comments about the Aaton (LTR54, LTR7, ACL 2), I think it is maybe your only option, considering that the Arri SR is too heavy. You just need to search to find one in good condition and in a reasonable price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Downes Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 The many filmmakers to use of Kinor-16 camera and ask about outside blimp for this camera.From my point of view, Kinor don't have too high noise, any case, the additional blimp can be good devise too. I know, the one user of Kinor create of blimp, but, i have not a information about result. I think, the design a blimp can be good idea. I can give a sizes and other technical information. Outside of a technical diagram, the best way would be to actually get a camera... Well my birthday *is* coming up... *goes to hint to the wife* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck colburn Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Thank for bringing that up. No, we don't have lenses. i thought I had listed that, but it seems I am very mistaken. I would, of course, love to get her primes, but i know that's not too realistic to start off and that I'd probably start with a zoom. Any thoughts, please share as I am eager to hear suggestions on lenses too. I don't know if either of these two zooms covers S16 or not, but they are two of the better 16 zooms that Angenieux made for 16mm std. And are pretty fast for zooms. http://cgi.ebay.com/Angenieux-9-5-57mm-Fas...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Angenieux-16-44mm-T1-2...VQQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Bowerbank Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 (edited) I've been leaning towards the Eclair's mainly due to being able to get a little more for the money (I think I would be able to get her alittle more set-up on an Eclair than an aaton right off the bat due to money) but I am a huge aaton fan. The NPR's really awkward to go handheld with though. Aaton all the way. Edited June 16, 2007 by Jonathan Bowerbank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck colburn Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 One nice feature on the little ACLs was the interchangable lens standards. That way you can jump between cine and still camera lenses with simply the turn of a locking ring. I remember some talk about magazines and/or motors that either the French or the British ones were superior in some way. The lens mounts pop up on ebay pretty regularly and are not to exspensive. Oh and I believe most of the mounts also allow the use of "C" mount lenses (up to a certain outside diameter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Bowerbank Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 I hope it's not an eBay scam, but check this out: http://cgi.ebay.com/AATON-LTR-7-16mm-CAMER...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Collins Posted June 17, 2007 Author Share Posted June 17, 2007 I hope it's not an eBay scam, but check this out: http://cgi.ebay.com/AATON-LTR-7-16mm-CAMER...1QQcmdZViewItem I've been keeping an eye on it to see how high it goes. Thanks for keeping an eye out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Carroll Posted June 17, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted June 17, 2007 Jonathan, Just be aware that if you buy that camera, it's going to need an overhaul before your fiancée can shoot with it, and an overhaul for that camera is going to run $2200 at Abel Cine Tech, less if you have it done somewhere else (but you do get what you pay for with an Aaton overhaul and I would strongly recommend Abel). It is also going to be an expensive camera to convert to Super 16 somewhere down the line. So if you can find one already converted (preferably with the "black" gate) that would be a real plus. -Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Collins Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Jonathan, Just be aware that if you buy that camera, it's going to need an overhaul before your fiancée can shoot with it, and an overhaul for that camera is going to run $2200 at Abel Cine Tech, less if you have it done somewhere else (but you do get what you pay for with an Aaton overhaul and I would strongly recommend Abel). It is also going to be an expensive camera to convert to Super 16 somewhere down the line. So if you can find one already converted (preferably with the "black" gate) that would be a real plus. -Tim Thanks! I requested the serial number from the guy to try and see if I can find out the last time it was serviced and where. Do you know roughly what the costs are to converrt the aaton from 16 to super? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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