Delivery Schedule

[Jay Taylor]

But have you noticed how, now it's out on the ground, the world is... somehow... unchanged?

 

Phil

 

Yes, and it's also very quiet! With all the hype surrounding this camera, you would've thought Kodak, Fuji, Arri, Aaton, Panavision, Sony, etc., would've shut down their operations by now! ;)

 

 

Jay

[Carl Brighton]

Yes, and it's also very quiet! With all the hype surrounding this camera, you would've thought Kodak, Fuji, Arri, Aaton, Panavision, Sony, etc., would've shut down their operations by now! ;)

Jay

Did you have the flu when they were doing Big Business 101? :lol:

Do you really think that all those executives on six and seven figure salaries are going to just say:

 

"Oh dear. It looks like this Jannard fellow means business. We'd better close our electronic camera division down at once, so our shareholders can get at least something back from all the money the invested. Miss Heckinthorpe: would you please type up 3,546 letters of resignation? Yes, just do a mail merge with all the names and addresses of the entire board of directors and all our employees and send them out at once. See Thistlethwaite in petty cash for a couple of thousand dollars worth of stamps. If we hurry we can be out of here by tomorrow afternoon...."

 

No, they're not going to do that; they're going to string out their worthless tenure for as long as humanly possible, dragging their companies way into bankruptcy to keep paying their inflated salaries and bonuses until they eventually get fired, often with a "golden handshake" that exhausts the last of the company's captial resources. In many cases, dead wood divisions of companies are allow to limp along for years simply because the payoputs to the executives would bankrupt the parent company.

 

The RED is simply the logical progression of electronic camera manufacture. The performance vs cost of digital signal processing systems has been improving steadily over the years, but the traditional camera manufacturers haven't been in too great a hurry to pass the savings on to their customers. But then the likes of Sony probably have a lot of financial ground to make up after their initial failed foray into "Digital Cinematography" cameras that were really nothing more than tarted-up HD versions of Betacam.

 

Even your cheapest consumer Mini DV camera will easily outperform cameras that cost twenty times the dollars, twenty years ago. After less than ten years on the market, DVD players are now sometimes cheaper than the discs you play on them, which is a phenomenal drop in price. Anyone here buy a Diamond Multimedia "Rio" MP3 player seven years ago? If I remember correctly the US price was about $500, including 32M of flash memory. Now you just about get better ones with 128M in cereal boxes.

 

In one of the articles somebody linked to it was mentioned that Sony have 140,000 employees. This might be true, but only a tiny fraction of them actually work for the professional camera division. In reality, Sony now make very few products themselves, just about everything is outsourced to Korean or Chinese manufacturers. Sony's product quality and after-sales backup on their entire product range is steadily declining, and while they probably think they can trade for some time on the "inertia" of the Sony brand being synonymous with "quality" the age of the Internet Forum is likely to severely truncate that business model.

 

Jannard still has a lot of cameras to get out the door before all this happens, but you can bet an awful lot of executives in other companies are working ovetime on their own personal exit strategies rather than how to compete!

Edited September 1, 2007 by Carl Brighton

[Carl Brighton]

Hi Jay,

 

Somebody once said on CLM, if you know how to light it doesn't matter what you shoot with, if you don't know how to light it doesn't matter what you shoot with.

 

Stephen

But unless you're God, you can't actually light the Grand Canyon, the Eiffel Tower or the streets of Miami, at least in daylight.... Originating on film is the closest you can get to enclosing them in a mile-high blue tent with 50 ZilloWatts of lights :rolleyes:

And then if you're going to shoot the exteriors on film, you might as well shoot the whole thing on film and avoid any intercutting issues.

End of story.

[Carl Brighton]

Nothing special... again its the tool in the right craftsman's hands... I'm sure they can look better...

When the CineAlta hoop-la was in full swing, it was widely predicted that older actors would soon have to seek employment elsewhere, as the "extremely high resolution" of the new HD cameras would show up every line on their faces! Of course it wasn't high resolution that was responsible, just the excessive detail correction that Sony used to try to make it look like resolution.

 

Oddly, the problem didn't seem to occur with 35mm, which has far higher resolution.

But one thing... like most HD.. gee if Red is a hit... might be wise to invest in a makeup company... yes an old joke... but seems true...

 

Well, Ronald Perelman bought Revlon and Panavision at almost the same time :lol:

[Jay Taylor]

Hey Carl,

 

I was actually being sarcastic about those companies shutting down. Talking to people who are really excited about the Red, you get the impression that they think all other companies and formats will be gone in an instance. But hey, we still have super 8mm, analog tape, and vinyl records! Regardless of the new technologies that came along to "replace" them.

 

I think Red's going to be a really good option for a lot of people. Especially in the low-mid range budget productions. As far as the high end budgets, I think it'll still be about the same as it is now. Just another choice!

 

If someone decides to shoot digitally, it'll be a lot cheaper to rent (or maybe buy) a Red, which can output 4k, with 35mm dof, as opposed to a 2/3" chip-size Sony, for much higher cost.

 

Choices, choices, choices!

 

 

Jay

[Brian Drysdale]

Panavision purchasing 200 REDs has been floated, so I imagine they'll continue doing what they've always done.

 

People will select the best tools for their budget and production.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

I think Red's going to be a really good option for a lot of people. Especially in the low-mid range budget productions. As far as the high end budgets, I think it'll still be about the same as it is now. Just another choice!

 

If someone decides to shoot digitally, it'll be a lot cheaper to rent (or maybe buy) a Red, which can output 4k, with 35mm dof, as opposed to a 2/3" chip-size Sony, for much higher cost.

 

Choices, choices, choices!

Jay

Yes, it seems you're a fair guy. I agree in general with what I've read from you.

 

Hi Jay,

 

Somebody once said on CLM, if you know how to light it doesn't matter what you shoot with, if you don't know how to light it doesn't matter what you shoot with.

 

Stephen

 

There's the key (...light. Or the fill light...back light and other lighting on. ;)) !

 

I hope this silly battle between followers and naysayers may over now. After the RED camera (ONE -- 1st one) release. Just in order to begin with civil discussions here.

 

I'd prefer a 35mm killer only 'cause this would mean a better outcome where I have and will put my money. And with the camera which I'll shoot my work. Anyway, I'm happy enough with the RED results.

 

I'm just waiting for the other features. Audio recording on camera, 16:9 ratio @4K, 60 fps @4K, 100 fps @2K, etc etc etc.

[Gary McClurg]

I've never seen a person banned for it.

 

You may not belive so... but I do... but lets talk about something different...

 

Okay on the camera rental I did not mean Red persay... but here goes...

 

So Gavin for fun you own a Red and I want to rent it.

 

We agree on the rental rate. Everything is wonderful... things are great...

 

Then the camera goes down... what are you going to do about it?

 

I mean everyone wants to rent it... so all the rentals are going to be busy.

 

Will you cover the cost of a sub rental?

 

What happens if the cost of that rental is more than we agreed upon?

 

Are you going to pay the difference out of your pocket? Because I'm not.

 

Again what happens half way through my shoot you can't get a replacement Red are you going to cover my down time until yours is fixed or until you get a replacement?

 

Will your company be bonded for such things?

 

These are the tough questions I ask... these are the same questions I would ask if I was renting my friends Arri 35mm package... what would he do... he send someone over and pick up a body from the local grip and lighting company which also owns some Arri's... and I still be paying him the rate we agreed upon...

 

Or that's why when I rent HD... I rent from Plus 8... my follow focus unit on the second camera break... not shooting with it till tomorrow... but Plus 8 has a guy there on the set in 30 minutes... and what does he do... he finishes prepping the camera for the next days shoot...

 

These are the tough questions I've asked those who think there going to get lots of rentals... and in return I've gotten nasty pm's why do you hate Red for?

Edited September 2, 2007 by Gary McClurg

[Adamo P Cultraro]

Obviously with the number of red cameras sold there will be plenty to go around. Even with them selling for $50K a pop with all the stuff, they'll still be everywhere and not really too exclusive.

 

I'm buying one not based on the perceived exclusivity, but for the price point and functionality. I don't rent any of my stuff (3 ton lighting and grip, HVX200, steadicam...etc....etc....etc), but then again my narrative work was not meant to pay the bills.

[Carl Brighton]

Hey Carl,

 

I was actually being sarcastic about those companies shutting down.

 

Maybe you were, but I was making a serious point, namely that whether they take the RED seriously, or whether they don't take it seriously, they're most likely going to pretend they don't take it seriously, for as long as they can get away with it. :lol:

 

And because you point out that there is far more to being a rental or production company, or actually making a commercially viable film, than simply owning a couple of camera kits, you get called a RED Hater.

 

I don't hate the RED. If I owned one I'd probably love it! But I'm not sure what I'd do with it, because:

A. I don't have any particular urge to make a movie

B. If I did, I know I'd need a bloody lot more than just a camera to make something worth watching.

 

I hate the Hype, but I'm certainly not alone there.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Carl Brighton

[Gary McClurg]

Obviously with the number of red cameras sold there will be plenty to go around. Even with them selling for $50K a pop with all the stuff, they'll still be everywhere and not really too exclusive.

 

I'm buying one not based on the perceived exclusivity, but for the price point and functionality. I don't rent any of my stuff (3 ton lighting and grip, HVX200, steadicam...etc....etc....etc), but then again my narrative work was not meant to pay the bills.

 

 

I'm guessing your responding to my post... if you were you did not answer one question... you all give the same thing... there is going to be plenty around... when in a year... gee I've seen so many posts that they're going to pay off the whole camera package in two months... to do so... all cameras will be booked...

 

I understand you are not going to rent it out... but what would you do if you were the renter...

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Jannard still has a lot of cameras to get out the door before all this happens, but you can bet an awful lot of executives in other companies are working ovetime on their own personal exit strategies rather than how to compete!

 

Yeah, because you know when the average family is looking to purchase a camcorder for shooting the baby's birthday party, they are going to say "Forget the $400 Sony Handicam, let's get a RED for only $20,000!. Hell, let's buy two!"

 

I can't understand why so many people think that RED is going to be the next Microsoft Windows and virtually dominate the digital acquisition market. I realize this forum is about pro gear, but for companies like Sony, Panasonic, Canon, etc to be completely SOL, they would have to lose low end market value to which RED will not even touch. Unless Jannard plans to make the REDmini at an MSRP of $500.

[Stephen Williams]

Panavision purchasing 200 REDs has been floated, so I imagine they'll continue doing what they've always done.

 

People will select the best tools for their budget and production.

 

Hi Brian,

 

From my CML inbox this morning:-

 

"No truth whatsoever to this rumor! Don't believe everything you read on the internet!!

 

Regards,

 

Andy

 

Andy Romanoff

Panavision

Woodland Hills CA"

 

Stephen

[Brian Drysdale]

Hi Brian,

 

From my CML inbox this morning:-

 

"No truth whatsoever to this rumor! Don't believe everything you read on the internet!!

 

Regards,

 

Andy

 

Andy Romanoff

Panavision

Woodland Hills CA"

 

Stephen

 

 

Nothing like a good rumour!!

[Adamo P Cultraro]

If they were smart they'd buy 200 though. A panavised red could be pretty cool.

[Max Jacoby]

From the uncompressed Tiff screen grabs that have been posted so far, there's no substantial improvement in quality over other electronic systems that are already on the market (including Panavision's own Genesis). In analyzing these screen grabs on a high-resolution monitor, one can see that the quality DOES NOT surpass that of uncompressed Tiffs of 35mm shoots, both in terms of sharpness and color rendition, when viewed side-by-side. The RED may be a competitve product, but it in no way makes film or even other HD camera obsolete.

I do echo that sentiment.

 

These images also show once again that no camera in the world is suddenly going to turn you into an amazing filmmaker. Crap lighting is still going to be crap lighting even in 4K.

[Chad Stockfleth]

I was really hoping it would handle highlights better than what I've seen so far. That's where the F23's dynamic range is intriguing to me. I can't wait to see one of those.

[Jay Taylor]

I think the really great thing about the Red is the price. Instead of spending a lot more for a sony, or a genesis, or whatever else, you can spend a lot less and get the same quality as those cameras. So the benefit is that lower budget productions can get much higher picture quality then they could with an hvx200 (assuming they can light properly!)

 

BTW, what's the dynamic range supposed to be with the F23? I can't seem to find anything on it. Must not be looking in the right place?

 

 

Jay

[Tim Pipher]

Hello Stephen. I wonder what your opinion is of the pictures posted at Reduser.net?

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

[Gary McClurg]

I think the really great thing about the Red is the price. Instead of spending a lot more for a sony, or a genesis, or whatever else, you can spend a lot less and get the same quality as those cameras. So the benefit is that lower budget productions can get much higher picture quality then they could with an hvx200 (assuming they can light properly!)

 

You got it... seem some have thought because you asked tough questions you hated Red.... maybe some of us really do want there to be a holy grail... a nice camera that will help us...

 

All I wanted was 1080 24p... 35mm dof... and different frame rates... and I'd be happy...

[Adamo P Cultraro]

Get an HVX200 with a 35mm adapter.

 

I have it, but still want a red.

[Emanuel A Guedes]

Apples to oranges. Same comparision.

[Jay Kelley]

For the record, I am a RED "Fanboy" as some of you have called it.. And I must say, it's an honor. I've been following RED since they started talking about it in Dec '05 and I had a reservation not long after. The camera sounded amazing, and the deposit was refundable, so it was no big risk on my part. During my time with RED I have been allowed to have an active hand in the design of the camera, I have seen suggestions I have made actually put into the system.. To me, that's very cool.

 

I've made a lot of friends since we all have a passion for shooting in some form or another, and we all saw RED as a way to up our current respective games. It has not always been smooth sailing, but it's been eventful.

 

Now 25 of the cameras are "into the wild" and friends I have gotten to know the last two years or so (Including Jim Jannard, our fearless leader) have taken flight to shoot anything and everything they can. Jim himself took off to Indy to shoot his beloved drag races. I suspect, it was there years ago, where this idea, and Jim's personal frustration with his other camera (whichever one that was) is what gave birth to the concept that now sits before us. Personally I think it's really cool that the first thing the owner of a camera company does after reaching a major milestone, is take HIS camera back to his favorite subject matter, and spend the day shooting. It was also neat to see that his first insticnt after shooting was to run to a computer and upload some screen caps to his fellow RED Geeks on REDUSER and talk about shutter speeds, monitors, capture settings, etc. Jim shot some nice stuff and it was cool to see. Let me tell you, we all had a blast.

 

It's what we're all about... We're shooters, most of us anyway. We love to put a good image together, or tell a story, or even shoot the family pet! As long as we have a camera, and there's a subject out there, we want to shoot!

 

There are a lot of opinions about this and that.. That's fine, I'm just happy the camera is done and now we can all get moving (25 of us have already, those lucky bastards). My time will come in November, and believe you me, I will be ready.

 

RED's journey as a camera, and a company is just beginning. Jim and the boys are getting feedback 25 times over now. Most of the testing up to now has been PROJECT specific. In other words, the people doing the shooting were doing so in order to shoot something specific. Now that the REDBOYS have it' we will be CAMERA specific for a while.. In other words, we wanna push it until it breaks in order to see what we can do.. We want to play with all the extras just to see what they can do. Some of it will be ugly, some of it will be pretty.. We don't care anymore cause we HAVE the camera. We'll make it what we want.

 

As for picture quality, 35mm, 4k or 3k , Bayer pattern or aspirin... Don't care. Is the picture good looking when lit correctly? Does it offer me more than other cameras in this price range? Can I up my game with it? Will there be a sequel to the Transformers movie? Those are the questions that matter to me. So far I like all the answers.

 

Everyone must do what they enjoy.. You guys talk on this site about what interests you, I have read a lot of it and sometimes it gets upsetting. It's no fun to be insulted indirectly. But in the end, what matters, what REALLY matters is the camera, and that it works.

 

It does.. It REALLY works, and it's just starting.

 

I'm a REDHEAD, a FANBOY, and I am honored to be one. I have made good friends, and I am part of something special. It's what I believe.

 

Have a good weekend all.

 

Jay

[Stephen Williams]

Hello Stephen. I wonder what your opinion is of the pictures posted at Reduser.net?

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim,

 

I have only seen a few stills I am traveling & don't have a fast connection. I haven't seen any flat raw images so I see little point in commenting yet, as once the material is processed the look is down to the person at the controls. I guess I will get a chance to see more at IBC.

 

Stephen

[John Sprung]

If they were smart they'd buy 200 though. A panavised red could be pretty cool.

Panavision bought Plus-8. I heard that Marker had some Reds ordered.

 

 

 

-- J.S.