Sharpest Super 8 Camera and/or Lens.

[Matthew Buick]

Just a point of interest here.

 

What would you say is the sharpest Super 8mm Camera, lens, or camera-lens combination? I've heard the Macro Cinegon 10mm Prime is a pretty sharp lens. I've also heard the Elmo 110R Super is a pretty sharp camera.

 

Thank you all, let's just have a nice conversation. :)

[Douglas Hunter]

Despite its problems I gotta say that my 5008s creates great images. I've used two lenses on it - the stock Ang. 80mm zoom and also a Canon 16 - 102 zoom. Both lenses give very good results. My 814xl-s also seems to have pretty good glass on it. Honestly thought I don't think one can take the discussion of sharpness in Super 8 very far because of the inherent limitation of blowing up such a small image area.

[kevin jackman]

i was speaking to a lab person at kodak who had this to say: all things being equal, a 100asa film in super8 will have very similar characteristics to a 400asa film in 16mm from five years ago. im not sure where the latter part of that came from but he confirmed that a professional image was certainly there. the lack of pin registration, a plastic pressure plate and old glass will significantly reduce image quality overall, including sharpness. if you want the best you can get out of the format get a pin registered camera that takes interchangable lenses. use the modern glass you can and/or high quality. the old schneiders arent as goos as you think. if you really want to find out how much glass makes a difference then get various old lenses and rent some modern glass.

[Douglas Hunter]

if you want the best you can get out of the format get a pin registered camera that takes interchangable lenses.

 

You do realize that we are talking about super 8 here don't you? There is no such thing as a pin registered super 8 camera.

[John Adolfi]

You do realize that we are talking about super 8 here don't you? There is no such thing as a pin registered super 8 camera.

 

 

Perhaps not but the Fujica line of cameras as well as the double super 8 cameras come as close to that ideal as possible. comes

[Guest Glenn Brady]

Single 8 and DS8 cameras are undoubtedly capable of getting the most out of the Super 8 format, but the debate about which Super 8 cartridge camera produces the best results seems never to end. Maybe the best way to answer the question is to conduct an objective side-by-side comparison test, using cameras adjusted to their factory specification, loaded with the same emulsion, imaging a test target in controlled temperature/humidity/lighting conditions. Maybe editors at Smallformat and/or Super 8 Today could help put this question to rest.

[Robert Hughes]

...which Super 8 cartridge camera produces the best results seems never to end. Maybe the best way to answer the question is to conduct an objective side-by-side comparison test, using cameras adjusted to their factory specification...

 

This question has been beaten to death over the last several years, and the answer always is: Any camera needs overhaul and regular maintenance in order to provide its best performance. Curiously, almost nobody in the Super 8 world bothers to spend $500 on an overhaul of a camera they bought off eBay for $100. If you are willing to expend the resources necessary to get your Nizo, Braun, Beaulieu, Canon, Nikon, Leica, Bolex, Elmo, Sankyo or whatever camera up to snuff you will get better pictures than 99% of the S8 shooters out there. But if not, it doesn't really matter what brand of 40 year old, broken down piece of crap you have. ya dig?

[Douglas Hunter]

Curiously, almost nobody in the Super 8 world bothers to spend $500 on an overhaul of a camera they bought off eBay for $100.

 

Robert, you'll be glad to know that some of us think that good camera maintainence is a necessity, all the more so when buying on ebay!

[kevin jackman]

actually ther eis a pin registered super8 camera. you have to pull a loop out of the cart to load it even...

[Douglas Hunter]

actually ther eis a pin registered super8 camera. you have to pull a loop out of the cart to load it even...

 

Do tell.

[kevin jackman]

its called a mekel. it does 10-250 fps. very pin registered. no doubt the steadiest super8 camera out there.

[John Adolfi]

its called a mekel. it does 10-250 fps. very pin registered. no doubt the steadiest super8 camera out there.

Sadly its a Polavision camera.

[Douglas Hunter]

Sadly its a Polavision camera.

 

There were two different versions the 300 which was a Polavision camera and the 250 which I believe was not. I forgot about these cameras. There was one on eBay in the past year. Since they are motion analysis cameras they are not well suited for doc. drama, music video etc. But I guess since they have a pin and take C-mount lenses that they would probably win the contest in terms of steady and sharp. Although Stabilizing footage from a 5008s in After Effects, is going to be fine, and obviously can have any of the same glass.

[Dan Salzmann]

If I remember correctly Mekel did make a high speed super8 camera. I've only seen photos of it.

Well maintained Canon 1014's and Leicina Specials have given me good results for the format.

[Matthew Buick]

Are there any Elmo owners out there who can attest to their quality?

[Robert Hughes]

I used to own an Elmo 1012XLS or whatever it was called. It was fine, and had a long zoom. Sound didn't work on it anymore, but who cares?

[kevin jackman]

mekel definatly did make this camera. ive seen the manual and there is one for sale floating around. it was for motion analysis but i dont see why this is an issue when doing dramatic or doco work. if anything its really like a miniature arri due to its features. it appears small and easy to use. this is the camera they should be punching out now!

[Mitch Perkins]

You do realize that we are talking about super 8 here don't you? There is no such thing as a pin registered super 8 camera.

 

R10 reg. pin, top left of aperture -

 

http://home.pacbell.net/mnyberg/super8mm/plate_r10r8.jpg

 

Though sometimes they stick, guaranteeing the most possible jump. ~:?)

 

Servicing a Super 8 camera involves perhaps more risk than 16mm...?

 

Best to luck out on a camera that's seen little usage/good storage since it was put together by the carefullest tech on a lucky day during the height of the manufacturer's R&D/quality control. ~:?)

 

Nikon Superzoom 8 is the sharpest I've seen, including wide open with wide angle attachment. Very cheap.

 

Mitch

[Dan Salzmann]

I don't get the miniature Arri comparison. The already somewhat dodgy registration of super8 will increase by a substantial rate at 250 fps pin or no pin.Also what kind of shot length do you get with a super8 cartridge at that frame rate including the time for the motor to get up to speed?

[Tony Hudson]

R10 reg. pin, top left of aperture -

 

http://home.pacbell.net/mnyberg/super8mm/plate_r10r8.jpg

 

Though sometimes they stick, guaranteeing the most possible jump. ~:?)

 

Servicing a Super 8 camera involves perhaps more risk than 16mm...?

 

Best to luck out on a camera that's seen little usage/good storage since it was put together by the carefullest tech on a lucky day during the height of the manufacturer's R&D/quality control. ~:?)

 

Nikon Superzoom 8 is the sharpest I've seen, including wide open with wide angle attachment. Very cheap.

 

Mitch

 

 

The 2nd claw on a Nikon R10 is not a reg pin.

[kevin jackman]

I don't get the miniature Arri comparison. The already somewhat dodgy registration of super8 will increase by a substantial rate at 250 fps pin or no pin.Also what kind of shot length do you get with a super8 cartridge at that frame rate including the time for the motor to get up to speed?

 

well mabye i can clarify. when i said small gage arri i meant in terms of features and results.it has no handgrip, electric zoomor lightmeter like found on a typical super8 camera. it is very mechanical. it has a variable shutter you set by hand, interchangable lenses, wide speed range, proper registration system and very rugged construction. to me the camera seems to have been designed more lin line with pro 16mm cameras and not the usual consumer super8 ca,eras. most consumer super8 cameras were never meant to be a the same level as pro cameras.

 

when you say dodgy, you are refering to non pin registered systems? i would think so because you havent seen a mekel shot film...so i dont get your 'pin or no pin' line. if its pin registered it will be, all things being equal, incredibly steady even at high speed. yes youll get some weaving but until you see it you cant really ay much about it if anything.

 

shot length is irrelevant. most shots are at much lower speeds so you can consider the high speed abilities as an ocassional bonus,. you really just need to concern yourself with what it can do within the typical range of capabilities of what the average user will use. 100 fos would be nice so consider it that kind of a camera that can go a step further. to knock a caera becasue it has abilities that are pretty phenominal is a total waste of time to me.

[Michael Lehnert]

Just a point of interest here.

 

What would you say is the sharpest Super 8mm Camera, lens, or camera-lens combination? I've heard the Macro Cinegon 10mm Prime is a pretty sharp lens. I've also heard the Elmo 110R Super is a pretty sharp camera.

 

Thank you all, let's just have a nice conversation. :)

 

 

Just to put up a lengthy reply to your original question, Matthew:

 

As it's such a frequent question, I just submitted a series of articles to Chris from Super 8 Today that touches on that subject. I was part of a project where we shot nearly a hundred S8 cartridges for the testing of film stocks and cameras of various make and age - all with regular CLA (cleaned, lubricated, adjusted/collimated)! The test films were then projected up to 16ft wide in a screening room and discussed.

(We also put S8 and DS8 side-by-side, and I've not been as overwhelmed by DS8 as I hoped I would be, but that's another point).

 

Discussing sharpness is a fuzzy topic. There are so many parameters that determine every shot: light condition, shutter opening angle, aperture, exposure time, film pressure and flatness, mechanical transportation and registration, and film development. Even when boiling it down to camera-mechanical excellence body-wise and optical resolving power lens-wise, it's still virtually impossible to come up with a definitive answer.

 

I know this can be a potentially heated topic as many cameras have real love/hate-fandoms here in the "cloud", but from the tests we made, the best combined results for S8 vario lenses (!) on S8 cameras came from the

 

- Schneider Optivaron 1:1,8 / 6-66mm

on the Beaulieu 4008 ZM II (C-Mount) and Leitz Leicina Special (M-Mount)

- Angénieux f/1,2 | T/1,4-2,1 / 6-80mm (C-Mount) for Beaulieu 4008 and 5008-series

- Schneider Macro-Variogon 1:1,8 / 6-70mm on the Bauer A 512

- Schneider Macro-Variogon 1:1,8 / 7-80mm on the Nizo professional

- Canon Macro 1:1,4 / 7-56mm on the Canon 814XL-S

 

As there wasn't a Nalcom 1000 FTL (with Pentax-Mount) and an Elmo 1018R involved, I can't comment on those, Matthew. Sorry :(

 

I don't share the view that newer glass is necessarily better than older glass. Actually, S8 vario lenses (!) by Angénieux and Schneider put on cameras from 1978/9 onwards suffer from serious quality deficits that troubled late generation Beaulieu and Nizo sound cameras.

 

When it comes to prime lenses used on S8 cameras with interchangeable lens option, that's another ball game: The Schneider Macro-Variogon 1:1.8 / 10mm is excellent and probably the best prime calculated and designed specifically for the S8 format ? it's also the only one as far as I know (please correct me) :) . However, it obviously can't compete against a Cooke S4 or Zeiss Ultra 16. But then again, that REALLY is another ball game, as Daniel showed with "Halogenuros".

[Alessandro Machi]

Did you see a noticeable difference between the Canon 814XLS and the 1014XLS? I have been very pleased with my 1014XLS. It may not seem like much of a difference between 6.5mm and 7mm on the wide side of the lens but I seem to find that extra tiny bit of wideness that the 1014XLS has helps when shooting in close quarters.

[Michael Lehnert]

The 2nd claw on a Nikon R10 is not a reg pin.

 

Thanks, Tony, for pointing that out! (although I assume Mitch made a joke). After all, this topic has been clubbed to death when "Santo" was still posting here and on "the other forum".

 

Just to make sure: despite what even some fairly recent (and otherwise high-quality) book publications state, the Nikon R10 does neither have a registration pin, nor a double registration pin, and certainly not two double registration pins! The Nikon R10 is not a Mitchell S35!!

 

To give a brief laydown on pin registration generally: Pin registration does not necessarily mean that the frame stability or registration is "better" in absolute terms. Pin registration is more about ameliorating frame stability for specific patented transport mechanisms. That's why it is used in some cameras, while others achieve better frame stability without the help of a registration pin ? all this differs from camera to camera.

To make a comparative example: cameras for 16mm as recent as the Arriflex 16SR II (of 1992) that features pin registration have a registration variance per frame of 0.013mm whereas the Aaton X-series achieves spectacular 0.005mm without a registration pin. And even the latter's spiritual predecessor, the Eclair ACL of 1971 achieves 0.010mm without pin registration (cf. camera spec sheets and Samuelson's).

[Michael Lehnert]

Did you see a noticeable difference between the Canon 814XLS and the 1014XLS? I have been very pleased with my 1014XLS. It may not seem like much of a difference between 6.5mm and 7mm on the wide side of the lens but I seem to find that extra tiny bit of wideness that the 1014XLS has helps when shooting in close quarters.

 

Hi Alex,

 

I remember the Canon shootings well (while I happily forgot some others ? like Beaulieu 6008 against Beaulieu 7008...) because it was personal for me: my brother owns one so I was interested on how these two would fair (we also ran those against the Canon DS-8, the one derived from the Scoopic).

 

Personally, I would say that the differences between these two were truly negligible (but then again, I need to wear glasses when driving a car, so who am I to say anything at all ;) However, we had a studied engineer in the panel who was adamant that at the extremes of the focal range, the Canon Macro 1:1,4 / 7-56mm had to be marginally superior in avoiding aberrations. We abided and the 814 gets mentioned before the 1014. I see these two Canons on equal standing, and a future article for Super 8 Today will make this clear. Should have mentioned that in my posting! Sorry for any confusion, folks!

 

I agree with you that the shorter focal length of the 1014 can be crucial for some shots. I once used a Nizo 2056 sound for interior shots with commag sound system, and found myself begging for an extra "1mm" in the wide angle :) .