My opinion after playing with RED

[David Mullen ASC]

I totally agree. Why would I use the Red if I can shoot 35mm for the same price, or maybe even cheaper?

 

Why would you need three more people if you were shooting on the RED camera? Seems more likely you'd be replacing a loader with a more expensive data manager of some sort, but that's not enough to compensate for the costs of shooting film necessarily (unless you were shooting very little footage.)

 

I would take a wild guess and say that shooting 35mm on my last feature cost maybe $150,000 in stock, processing, and telecine. I have a hard time believing that your additional crew member handling the data will cost you that much.

[Michael Most]

How about interfacing Red to an established digital recording system, such as S.two?

 

An S.two doesn't record data. It records DPX files from a video stream, such as dual link HD-SDI coming out of a Viper. In order to record from a Red, the Red would have to provide a video stream. It doesn't do that, in part because that would require a full quality debayer in real time. Even when Red enables the HD-SDI port, it likely still won't have a full quality real time debayer. If you're going to shoot with a Red, you're committing to recording Bayer data, most likely compressed with Redcode Raw. That's the "normal" working mode of the camera, the same way that dual link HD-SDI recording to an SRW1 is the "normal" working mode of a Genesis.

 

If I'm correctly informed on this, the big issue with CF is that they don't record sound. That's a killer, because we'd be back to syncing in post again.

 

Geez, John. Don't assistant editors know how to sync anymore? To sync dailies today is a no brainer, and it doesn't even require digitizing the sound to do it in most cases. Drag in a bunch of WAV files from the DVD-RAM, match up sticks, and you're done. Popping the tracks takes about 10 minutes. Synching is instantaneous. If you're shooting with Reds, you're going to have to do some kind of file translation for the picture, just to create something to cut with. So you're going through a dailies process, whether a facility does it for you or you do it yourself. I just don't see synching sound as a "killer." In fact, I don't know how recording sound on the camera is going to help you if the files need to be converted anyway.

[Simon Miya]

Jeezzz, what kind of a production are you thinking about? This is the negative we're talking about ... maybe you might be so casual about it on a no-budget horror movie, not for a feature production of any substantive size. Insurance guys would not be very unhappy. I'm cross-training a DIT and the Server/SAN System Engineer to handle the image data, even thought we're automating as much of the workflow as possible. We've just about got our workflow worked out for our digital shoot, and it includes a tech trained to handle and insure data is processed correctly.

 

I'm talking about the kind of productions that I work on. I don't work on "no budget" movies, so I can't speak to that point, but I do know that none of the productions I've worked on in the past decade would create a whole new department to copy ones and zeros from one medium to another.

 

The "PA with a laptop" comment was merely echoing a previous poster. The job should be replacing the film loader, with comparable pay. If this task is more difficult than loading film magazines, then I doubt the camera has much chance of surviving in this industry.

 

Two people for this job is overkill. No processing is involved, just copying. If you are doing anything more than copying from one disc (or card) to another on location, then you are just asking for problems. Anything more than copying should be done in a controlled post environment.

 

This is not a hobby for me, it is my profession, and I am offended by your implication that I know nothing about movies with a budget. Look me up on IMDB if you doubt my experience.

[Simon Miya]

The job should be replacing the film loader, with comparable pay.

 

...but honestly, the kind of productions that will be using a $17,000 camera will likely balk at hiring a loader and would assign the task to the 2nd AC (or a PA level crew member if the 2nd is too busy on set).

 

I couldn't find you on IMDB, Lance, so I don't know what you do, but I've gathered from other posts of yours that are a producer of some sort (sorry if I am wrong). If that is true, and you are willing to spend so much to make your crew's job easier, then I applaud you and hope to work with you in the future. But producers like that are exceedingly rare, the ones I am used to are looking to cut costs anywhere they can.

 

 

(I couldn't edit my post so added these thoughts here.)

[Brian Drysdale]

...but honestly, the kind of productions that will be using a $17,000 camera will likely balk at hiring a loader and would assign the task to the 2nd AC (or a PA level crew member if the 2nd is too busy on set).

 

A shooting RED kit will cost more than $17,000 without the lens, you also need V/F, drives, batteries etc.

 

Regardless, productions will need to assign someone to look after the rushes and ensure that they're treated as required by the production's insurers. Most productions will have the budgets to crew as required. However, there will be those that are barely together in production terms and shooting with the bare minimum, but they'll still have to address these issues.

[John Sprung]

An S.two doesn't record data. It records DPX files from a video stream, such as dual link HD-SDI coming out of a Viper. In order to record from a Red, the Red would have to provide a video stream.

That would be doing it the hard way. I'm thinking modify the S.two idea to record the kind of files that come out of the Red -- Red to whatever bit bucket, probably solid state, to dual LTO's. That way you have your stuff in a secure reliable container at the end of the day, and only use the expensive container on the camera and to get it to the next container. Basically just like film going from a very expensive camera magazine to a nice cheap sheet metal can with heavy cloth tape around it. And when we get the technology right, the amount of time, effort, and intelligence required will be equivalent to that of a second AC loading film.

 

Geez, John. Don't assistant editors know how to sync anymore? .... I just don't see synching sound as a "killer." In fact, I don't know how recording sound on the camera is going to help you if the files need to be converted anyway.

Some of them probably don't know how to sync dailies. We could certainly teach them. But that's not the issue. The big problem is that once the newness wears off, they'll want to be paid to do it. ;-) Spending time and money to manually recover sync makes no sense if we can design the system to not lose it in the first place. If we're dumping picture and sound in the same bit bucket at the same time, even if the picture is some sort of compressed raw Bayer thing, it should just be a matter of designing some sort of pointers, such as time code, into the data format, and writing some code to write and read them. You're right that hand syncing shouldn't be a killer for the initial roll out. But in the long term, it just makes too much sense to save the time and money.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Sprung]

2. The mini-bnc connectors need to be standard size. I think they made them mini's because they wanted to keep the small footprint of the body, but the chance that someone trips over a cable and breaks one of those is an almost certainty and I wouldn't want to lose my HD-SDI monitor capability on a shoot.

 

3. Small rubber covers need to be placed over all the connectors. As of now they are all open to dust and corrosion, and the CF Slot should have a cover to protect it from the elements when a card is removed.

I saw the Red at CSUN on Saturday. The connector issues you describe are the one real mistake that they've decided not to fix. Their idea is to use pigtails, so we'll have to watch them learn the hard way what we all know about pigtails.

 

I'd expect the rental houses to modify their cameras. It should be easy enough, nowhere near as demanding as putting a PL mount on a II-C. Or, they could just mount an adapter box on the rails, maybe even just an aluminum plate with bulkhead connectors.

 

Turnout was huge, there must have been a couple hundred people. Among them were some of the top people at Clairmont and Panavision. They demonstrated that you can shoot some nice pictures with it, but there's still a lot of fumbling and figuring out to do. Given the size of the crowd, it wasn't practical to try to actually touch the camera with my own hands. Some people may have stayed late to do that.

 

The CF cards will mostly be used for uploading new firmware to the cameras. They can record up to 4 minutes now, and expect soon to get 8 minutes. But that'll only make sense for ultra stripped down handheld use. The practical equivalent to a magazine or cassette will be a RAM box that'll hold two hours of compressed 4K in an object about half the size of a ham sandwich. When that gets here and the rental folks have them, things will really get interesting.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Mike Brennan]

The concepty of copying full quality data on set/location/in the hotel/ as the only means of keeping the show on the road on set will be short lived.

Give it 5-7 years until 4K digital cameras will create two copies within the camera body on an affordable removable medium that becomes the property of production.

 

Both camera crew and production need rock solid contracts, terms and conditions and procedures to erase good takes on set!

Especially on low budget movies where an owner operator could provide the technical team.

 

For a while at least, personally I wouldn't want the responsibility of providing and managing such a tech team.

It should be managed by production :)

 

 

 

I guess it was cost effective rather than best ergonomics to put the camera menue display on the back of the camera right where a battery is need for balance.

A horseshoe shaped battery sitting over the rear of the camera is an idea... or move the camera display, ideally duplicating it on both sides of the camera.

 

Like Mike Most I also have been curious from day one about the quality/usability (delay, timecode,sync) of the HDSDI outputs. Time will tell and as time has passed 4:4:4 as an option is on the back burner.

 

 

 

 

Mike Brennan

[Guest Paul Wizikowski]

For now RedCode is the only way to go. No one has purchased the RAW Port and the footage shown thus far has held its own. (subjective statement, let it go)

 

You currently can only record to a Compact Flash card and at 4K 24fps an 8GB CF card lasts roughly 4.5min. So the offloading is fairly constant. The good news is that its a simple drag and drop if your connecting your card to your laptop and dumping the footage into a couple of hard drives. Each shot (divided by every run/stop cycle) comes in its own folder and in that folder is the r3d file (the REDCODE RAW file) and 3 QT Proxy's (small:512x256, Medium:1024x512, and Large 2048x1024) that reference that r3d file.

 

Personally my backup process is to take the CF card create a Folder called REEL_# (with each card offload getting a new reel # in ascending order) and simply dump the entire CF card contents into its appropriate Folder. Now this, IMO, will take a dedicated person but not some high priced technician. And honestly when the RED Drives ship in the next couple of weeks suddenly your offloading once at the end of the day as the 320GB drives will last for roughly 5 hours.

 

Oh and according to Jim on RedUser the PL mount issue has been fixed.

[John Sprung]

... and at 4K 24fps an 8GB CF card lasts roughly 4.5min. So the offloading is fairly constant.

At the CSUN demo, they said that they also have 16GB cards working, which should run 9 minutes. At a couple hundred each, you could readily have enough CF's to shoot for half a day before you have to break the 2nd away to offload them -- just like film magazines.

 

With the 320 GB RAM boxes, you'd need at least a couple, so you could tear off during the day and get stuff to post. The advantage to them will be that you don't have to think about popping them in and out all the time.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[NormNelson]

I was disappointed to read your point that Red camera is probably not great for small crew, ie

me in a blind filming wildlife, let along the fact you have to know how deal with the footage

in a computer etc to get any thing done. I was kind of interested in this because of PL mount

light weight and the fact you could some slow motion....that would be a benefit to a wildlife shooter.

I guess I will follow these discussions til spring then maybe rent a Red after I know more.

Thanks

Norm Nelson

[Michael Nash]

I was disappointed to read your point that Red camera is probably not great for small crew, ie

me in a blind filming wildlife, let along the fact you have to know how deal with the footage

in a computer etc to get any thing done. I was kind of interested in this because of PL mount

light weight and the fact you could some slow motion....that would be a benefit to a wildlife shooter.

I guess I will follow these discussions til spring then maybe rent a Red after I know more.

Thanks

Norm Nelson

 

Sounds like you'd be better off with an ENG-style HD camera...