Has the witer's strike affected you yet?

[Bruce Greene]

"Richard have you seen your movies? Are they worthwhile to the cause of human condition? "

 

No of course not!!

 

And please don't tell me there is much of any thing on TV or in the movie theaters that is..."worthwhile to the cause of human condition."

 

As Rupert Murdoch once famously put it, "the purpose of TV is to sell soap." I mean it's like I'm having a discussion with a bunch of CBC employees here.

 

Yeah, Hollywood turns out movies so they can improve the human condition, money is not their motivation. Ok, yeah right. Listen I have some property in New Orleans I want you to see.

 

"OK, so you're only in it for the money. Fine. I can understand why you don't like your crew then...they cost money, money that you want in your own pocket."

 

Brad...I seriously wonder if you and I are even reading the same thread???????

 

R,

 

Richard,

 

After reading your many posts I suddenly realized what the real issue here may be: You're posting to an inappropriate website. Please try "LineProducers.com". Telling the hard working, below the line craft people on Cinematography.com that they are often well paid and have too many perks is just kind of asking for it, me thinks. I've even heard a rumor that your real last name is Potter, the same as that character from one of those movies they made just to make a few bucks... :unsure:

 

And, believe it or not, though the movie may be (mostly) about the money for you, I am constantly amazed how important a quality and artistically satisfying project is to virtually every PA, grip, prop person and gofer...They really put their hearts into these films and TV series and crave the appreciation of the producers who make their work possible.

 

So, go ahead, recognize the crew's hard work with a few perks and a lot of appreciation. I think you'll find you'll be a happier and even, more wealthy, filmmaker/producer in the end. After all, wouldn't you rather live in Bedford Falls than Potterville?

 

Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone!

[Annie Wengenroth]

I can't hold this in anymore. I was sitting on my hands and gritting my teeth but it's not working. We're all friends here, right? You guys can remind me of That One Post In Which I Totally Flipped The Hell Out in a few years when I'm pulling focus on some big-name feature and living in my mansion or whatever.

 

List form...I fear my head will explode otherwise.

 

1. "Dumb and Dumber" was quite funny and did in fact cause coffee to come out my nose.

 

2. I <3 cine.com.

 

3. David Mullen made a really good analogy about being at sea. I've been in so many locations where there has not been ANYWHERE to eat, let alone go to the bathroom. Yeah, ask me about the times I've had to pee in the bushes. And that day that we shot in a cornfield somewhere in Jersey. What were they supposed to do, tell us to pack a lunch? Whatever, dude. I think making people stand outside in the snow for 10 hours in the middle of the night, pack and unpack an entire truck, and then ask them to bring their own peanut butter and jelly, is a total bitch-slap. I've BEEN on jobs where they hardly fed us. My first job in New York was like that and I thought that's how it was everywhere, and I seriously thought I was gonna DIE. I'm hypoglycemic and also a vegan, when I don't eat, it's not fun. A surefire way to make me screw up on a job is to starve me. Honestly, for some of the conditions we are working in, I would also compare it to being in the army...they have a mess hall in the army, no?

 

You don't even want to KNOW some of what I've been dealt on the smaller jobs that have managed to sustain me in this city. I have a lot of stories, trust me. I'll spare everyone for now. Until I learned to stand up for myself on set, the sacrifices I made with some of this stuff, like health and safety, were almost sickening. My parents were horrified. I think they still are, sometimes!

 

4. This thread is starting to get under my skin on many levels, some of them personal. But I still feel that my opinion is somewhat valid here, and I like contributing to this forum. It's really tempting for me to go off ranting about how hard I've been working to keep moving onward and upward in this industry... but I don't want to use the f-word and I'm trying to maintain at least a vague degree of professionalism here! (Heck, who am I to pass judgment on people who sit at desks and work from 9 to 5? I've never done it and I bet it's not as fun as our jobs...)

 

I will say this much. As someone who is relatively new to the business and still pretty new to 600, the strike is scaring the hell out of me. It's not so much that I'M not doing well, because I've managed to scrape by on small jobs and buy my family Christmas presents this year (as well as 2 killer pairs of jeans and some really good organic granola that happened to be pretty expensive. ;)) This is the first year of my life where I have been able to live a little better and even take a vacation and not have panic attacks every time I go to the bank. But there have been tough times too, and as well as I've done this year in terms of my own progress, watching other people suffer more than me as a result of the strike, is REALLY kinda scary and sad...what can I say, I'm a sensitive kid. (See the "emo" post for more info!)

 

Ahem. Anyway... :D

 

And finally....

 

5. "And please don't tell me there is much of any thing on TV or in the movie theaters that is..."worthwhile to the cause of human condition."

 

Oh come on, gimme a break. Don't even tell ME that what I do, what ANY of us do, is not art, or not important. I knew when I was still in school that all I wanted for myself ever in my life, was to work in the film industry. It called to me like nothing else ever has...not music, not painting, NOTHING. And sometimes it's a hell of a good time...it is all part of a process that ABSOLUTELY is worthwhile to the cause of human condition, and to each of us.

 

Why don't you watch a film that's blurry, underexposed, scratched, flashed in random places, with bad focus and shaky camera moves...oh and the sound sucks too....and there are c-stands in the shots! And why don't you tell me how much you enjoyed that film?

 

I'm done. Sorry guys, you know I love y'all, and I'm sorry I abused the caps lock and the emoticons. Jeez, I wish I knew a few good jokes or something. Hey David, any time you want to send the "over the top" catering over to the bagel gang in New York, feel free! :P

[Brad Grimmett]

Brad...I seriously wonder if you and I are even reading the same thread???????

 

R,

Oh, we are. It's just that what matters to each of us is totally different. I care about making art, or at least a product that matters to people. You seem to have different goals and concerns.

I'm very well aware that this business is about money (as all of us are), but it can be about other, more interesting and important things as well.

[Walter Graff]

Oh, we are. It's just that what matters to each of us is totally different. I care about making art, or at least a product that matters to people. You seem to have different goals and concerns.

I'm very well aware that this business is about money (as all of us are), but it can be about other, more interesting and important things as well.

 

 

I remember when I first started. I think my first year I made $16k. My next year I probably made the same. And my third probably slightly more. I was doing grip work. My dad seeing this very nicely asked me; "I thought the idea of working was to make more each year". My response was let me do what I love and figure it all out and then worry about the money. If you are in this business, like any other art you are doing it to express your "pain" as I put it. AKA trying to use whatever art you like (music, painting, etc) to help the mind work through its dilemmas. At the same time the catch 22 for me is that I love what I do but also like the money. And sometimes when the money isn't good, I like what I do enough to say, hey, next time I'll do better. But then there are times where I like the money more than the art. Funny how I always get in trouble when I do. I always have worked under the mantra, work for what you love, not for money. And for a good part of my career, I've done that. Then came the nineties. At the time I was a well-established network lighting director, cinematographer, and working toward being a well-heeled commercial director. In the early nineties the precursor to reality television was talk television. And I became a star in talk television as a field producer who at the time did something no one could imagine; I shot produced and edited the pieces I made. Of course you have to do that today it seems. And with that work came incredible pay. I was rolling in so much dough I couldn't spend it fast enough. And with that my vision of life got clouded. I really liked that I was starting to get recognition as a commercial director. Agencies were starting to keep me on their short list. But the money clouded my mantra. And I started to turn down the agency work because I was making alot of money in syndicated television. And of course as you know, if you turn down folks a mere few times in this business, they stop calling. And that is what happened. So a potentially large career in a genre I really liked was lost to my head being clouded by money. That taught me a lesson. So to this day, I only do what I like and don't let the money cloud me. I turned down a lucrative multiyear job recently with a major pharmaceutical agency because after a taste of what I was directing, I felt dirty. Yea, $30k a job, but I'd rather do what I love than work for money and hate myself afterward. Of course that is my take on life and may not be yours. We all have different looks at life. None wrong, just different. Now if we could only learn not to let others lives and words affect us.

[Guest]

I care about making art, or at least a product that matters to people.

 

Uh Huh:

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0350415/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0306063/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0341564/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375562/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475289/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397853/

 

Now believe me I'm not criticizing you for working on any of these shows. You have a job to do and an income to earn, like we all do. But "art" Brad....please, please, please, art?????????

 

R,

[Guest]

Why don't you watch a film that's blurry, underexposed, scratched, flashed in random places, with bad focus and shaky camera moves...oh and the sound sucks too....and there are c-stands in the shots! And why don't you tell me how much you enjoyed that film?

 

Actually that would be quite funny, for at least one viewing.

 

R,

[Walter Graff]

And since when are womens bodies not art? Hey Brad. I used to make escort commercials in NY for a cable channel still referred to as Channel J. My greatest accomplishment doing them was making high quality spots that forced everyone else to produce better spots. And while I was selling sex, it was the way I did it that made my friend millions. It was art and it could have been anything. I love making good stuff.

 

 

 

Now I know why I have kept my name out of the credits of most all the work I have done in all areas over the years and hence why very little of what I do is on Yahoo and IMDB. My mom used to watch a program I worked on one of the networks a while back and said she didn't see my name. I told her I don't like my name in the credits. Here response? How are you going to get work then.

[Hal Smith]

.........As Rupert Murdoch once famously put it, "the purpose of TV is to sell soap."......

 

And your point was? The Merchant of Mordor isn't exactly someone whose opinion I value on anything.

[K Borowski]

All I'm pointing out is that I was surprised as I crewed up my production how many Toronto film workers said, "I require so many cents per mile to drive to Barrie each day." I excused my self and hung up the phone on those people.

 

I thought they didn't use miles in Canada, Richard. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

I think that, if someone signs on for a job knowing full well how far away it is from their place of residence, that travel to and from that job should be done on their dime. However, if a production all-of-a-sudden decides to shoot on location 4 hours north in the Canadian Wastelands, then that should be the production's responsibility, as it is a "company trip".

 

You also say that what we do isn't important. I disagree. Star Trek was (probably) one of the factors that inspired my father to work for NASA and design nuclear thermal rockets. If it weren't for Star Trek he may have been working in a factory instead, or been a salesman. I think businesses and capitalism are worse than unimportant, they are necessary evils that keep society operating. At least what we do is not evil.

 

Howabout documentaries, documentary filmmakers, documentary photographers that show us places that we could never go ourselves. Not every job in this industry is a reality show or a cheesy commedy or an action film. Films make us think, make us see the world differently. They motivate us, inspire us, scare us, enlighten us, and sometimes they do entertain us as well, in the process.

[Guest]

And your point was? The Merchant of Mordor isn't exactly someone whose opinion I value on anything.

 

Like it or not he controls more of the TV industry than any one on this board by far. You don't have to respect him. If he was paying your salary would you walk into his office and tell him he's wrong?

 

I think he has a realistic business view of TV, not some airy fairy idealistic view that TV must some how change the world for the better. He has a big pay roll to meet, people rely on his business abilities to pay their mortgages.

 

The networks put garbage on TV and millions tune in to watch. Did Rupert Murdoch force any one to watch Married With Children?

 

Who do we blame more, those that create the product, or those that choose of their own free will to watch?

 

R,

[Guest]

Howabout documentaries, documentary filmmakers, documentary photographers that show us places that we could never go ourselves. Not every job in this industry is a reality show or a cheesy commedy or an action film. Films make us think, make us see the world differently. They motivate us, inspire us, scare us, enlighten us, and sometimes they do entertain us as well, in the process.

 

Yes that's all fine and dandy, but you must make a profit it at, unless you're a bunch of bozos working at the CBC.

 

R,

[Brad Grimmett]

Now believe me I'm not criticizing you for working on any of these shows. You have a job to do and an income to earn, like we all do. But "art" Brad....please, please, please, art?????????

 

R,

Well, it appears you are criticizing me, otherwise you wouldn't have picked individual movies and TV shows off my IMDB page in order to try to make me look how you want. Have you even seen any of the projects you listed? A lot of hard work and creative energy, by myself and many others, went into making all of those projects. Some of it is good, some bad, I admit, but I worked hard on every single one of them. And every one of them has redeeming qualities. And yes, many of the producers of those projects didn't care about anything but money. That doesn't mean that the people who worked on those projects felt the same way.

Who are you to criticize and judge my work? Heck, one of the movies you listed was shot by David Mullen. Are you judging him too?

It's sad that you decided to make personal attacks. Sure, you've tried to candy coat it by saying that you're not criticizing me, but it's obvious what your motives are.

Yes, there is art in every single one of those projects, whether you choose to see it or not.

[Brad Grimmett]

And since when are womens bodies not art?

I'm guessing you're referring to Girls Behaving Badly. That was a hidden camera prank show, not what you're thinking.

[K Borowski]

Yes that's all fine and dandy, but you must make a profit it at, unless you're a bunch of bozos working at the CBC.

 

R,

 

Sure, you need to make a profit at it. I never stated otherwise. However, pursuing profit for the sake of profit is a societal evil. I'm not saying that we should all wear sack-cloth and live in the desert, but the pursuit of money should not be the driving force in one's life.

[Guest]

Well, it appears you are criticizing me, otherwise you wouldn't have picked individual movies and TV shows off my IMDB page in order to try to make me look how you want. Have you even seen any of the projects you listed? A lot of hard work and creative energy, by myself and many others, went into making all of those projects. Some of it is good, some bad, I admit, but I worked hard on every single one of them. And every one of them has redeeming qualities. And yes, many of the producers of those projects didn't care about anything but money. That doesn't mean that the people who worked on those projects felt the same way.

Who are you to criticize and judge my work? Heck, one of the movies you listed was shot by David Mullen. Are you judging him too?

It's sad that you decided to make personal attacks. Sure, you've tried to candy coat it by saying that you're not criticizing me, but it's obvious what your motives are.

Yes, there is art in every single one of those projects, whether you choose to see it or not.

 

I already pointed out that there is no "art" in any thing I've made, I don't claim that in the least. Nor do I aspire to it.

 

I already said I wasn't critizing you, or any one else involved in those projects. I'm pointing out that those are commercial projects and as you just pointed out....."many of the producers of those projects didn't care about anything but money." I don't see that there is any thing wrong with that, the purpose of business is to make money. Yes, yes, there are limitations we don't need to shoot porn or sell drugs just because it's profitable.

 

I'm no one to criticize or judge your work, neither is any one else on the planet. This business is 100% subjective, what is loved by one is hated by another. Who's right?

 

News flash, the studios and TV networks don't consider how many positive critical reviews a shows gets in order to consider it a success. They look at how many tickets are sold, or much ad revenue a TV show generates. Maybe I'm one of the few people here who sees this business for what it really is?

 

How many of you eat eggs? How many of you have actually seen the incredibly cruel conditions the hens live in to create those eggs? Few of you I'm sure. What you see is the nice glossy packaging at the super market. Guess what, the stores and farmers don't give a crap about the lives of the hens. It's just business. Last I heard the public was still buying eggs by the millions and no one has launched a huge campaign to help the poor hens.

 

TV and film is the same, it's just business, you turn out the product and sell it. What is so hard to see about that?

 

R,

[Marc Alucard]

And since when are womens bodies not art?

 

Helen Mirren as Rose in "Shadowboxer". Sorry you had to be on the set for that David Mullen. I hope you weren't operating for the love scenes.

She may be a great actress, but I could have lived my whole life seeing without her in that part.

[David Mullen ASC]

I disagree that older women's bodies can't be beautiful, it's just a different form of beauty. Helen was lovely, inside and out.

[Marc Alucard]

I disagree that older women's bodies can't be beautiful, it's just a different form of beauty. Helen was lovely, inside and out.

 

 

You Photography was beautiful. Helen was not so nice looking, she had the scary dying Cougar thing going on. I could have done without seeing as much of Cuba Gooding Jr. as well.

 

I agree that there are many older women that look amazing, but that wasn't the case here for me with Helen Mirren.

 

I'm sure she was a pleasure to work with.

 

Did you operate those scenes?

 

Cheers,

Marc

[Brad Grimmett]

I already pointed out that there is no "art" in any thing I've made, I don't claim that in the least. Nor do I aspire to it.

We get it. You just want the money. You don't have to say over and over again.

I already said I wasn't critizing you, or any one else involved in those projects.

Yet you're trying to use them against me in some way. But you SAY you're not criticizing me.

Yes, yes, there are limitations we don't need to shoot porn or sell drugs just because it's profitable.

Why not? Business is business right? Suddenly you have morals?

News flash, the studios and TV networks don't consider how many positive critical reviews a shows gets in order to consider it a success. They look at how many tickets are sold, or much ad revenue a TV show generates. Maybe I'm one of the few people here who sees this business for what it really is?

Not much of a news flash. You're stating the obvious. Why would you think everyone else doesn't know this?

TV and film is the same, it's just business, you turn out the product and sell it. What is so hard to see about that?

 

R,

It's just business to YOU. To some other people it's other things, including art.

You keep saying the same boring things over and over, but you're the one with the thick skull that can't figure out that some people consider what we do art. Fine, you don't get it, but stop blathering on about things everyone else already knows. You're not as smart as you think you are.

[Guest]

It's just business to YOU. To some other people it's other things, including art.

You keep saying the same boring things over and over, but you're the one with the thick skull that can't figure out that some people consider what we do art. Fine, you don't get it, but stop blathering on about things everyone else already knows. You're not as smart as you think you are.

 

The only blithering idiot on this forum is you. Since you want to spiral into insults, fine.

 

As has often been poined out one of the many benefits of this forum is that you get an advanced warning of who not to work with in this industry. There is I think zero chance either one of us would cross paths, but now we know to add each other to our "never work with" lists.

 

R,

[robert duke]

Uh Huh:

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0350415/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0306063/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0341564/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375562/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475289/

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397853/

 

Now believe me I'm not criticizing you for working on any of these shows. You have a job to do and an income to earn, like we all do. But "art" Brad....please, please, please, art?????????

 

R,

 

Hey, I didnt know you did HACK!?!?! I just talked to Kyle Klutz and Ben Van Cleave is my roommate! Small world.

 

How bout that!

[robert duke]

Argue with an Idiot and people will confuse who is who.

 

END OF STORY :P

[David Sweetman]

Why don't you watch a film that's blurry, underexposed, scratched, flashed in random places, with bad focus and shaky camera moves...oh and the sound sucks too....and there are c-stands in the shots! And why don't you tell me how much you enjoyed that film?

...those are all things I want to put in films...

 

Anyway, of all art forms, filmmaking is the bastard with both feet in commerce. That's obvious. But if I found that cinema no longer had an effect on me, if there was no movie that changed my life or the way I think, I'd drop it in a second. Heck without films and people like Tarkovsky I might still be a brainwashed right-winger, now I thoroughly don't care about anything that I can't see and touch without my own two hands, so I'm no-wing. Having forsaken political flight, I walk the ground.

 

In other words, films have helped me get to truth. The purpose of art is to get to truth. A message of purported truth, arranged in a frame for consumption by an audience, must be art. It's up to us to test its veracity.

 

For me, even if I decided to turn from filmmaking and pursue a more typical career, I'd still shoot shorts, the same way I might still pick up a brush and throw some paint onto something.

[Annie Wengenroth]

It's interesting to me that the people who claim that films do not influence our society and have no impact on our thinking whatsoever, are the same ones to jump the gun and blame Tarantino or Oliver Stone when something bad or violent happens in the news....

[Justin Hayward]

...those are all things I want to put in films...

 

Anyway, of all art forms, filmmaking is the bastard with both feet in commerce. That's obvious. But if I found that cinema no longer had an effect on me, if there was no movie that changed my life or the way I think, I'd drop it in a second. Heck without films and people like Tarkovsky I might still be a brainwashed right-winger, now I thoroughly don't care about anything that I can't see and touch without my own two hands, so I'm no-wing. Having forsaken political flight, I walk the ground.

 

In other words, films have helped me get to truth. The purpose of art is to get to truth. A message of purported truth, arranged in a frame for consumption by an audience, must be art. It's up to us to test its veracity.

 

For me, even if I decided to turn from filmmaking and pursue a more typical career, I'd still shoot shorts, the same way I might still pick up a brush and throw some paint onto something.

 

I hear what you're scream'n, but I have a slightly different POV. I crave satisfaction. And, the satisfaction I crave comes from making something that I find interesting, but more importantly; other people find interesting. I'm happy when someone likes something I did. When they don't, I get very, very depressed, and I hate that. So, my ultimate goal as an "artist" (and I hate using that term) is pure selfishness. I want to feel good all the time, so I make things that will make me look good and therefore make me feel good. When I fail at that, it sucks. When I succeed, it's great, but only for a moment. I have to keep making things for people to enjoy, so I feel good. But, no matter what, I can?t stop.

 

You want truth...?