Why We Fight

[Annie Wengenroth]

I'm doing my weekly homework regarding the writer's strike, trying to keep updated and see how everybody is faring. (:() Doug Hart sent me this video a few weeks ago, bless his soul, and I thought I'd post it in case you guys haven't seen it yet:

 

 

There are other good videos on that page as well. And a funny one that involves the strike as explained by a 5-year old.

 

As long as I'm still on the subject, let me ask you guys this...I'm not allowed to stand on WGA picket lines since I'm in 600, because Steven Poster will come to my apartment, murder my cat, and then drag me outside and feed me to the Rottweiler next door. So...what CAN I do to help, then? I feel helpless. And sort of guilty.

[James Steven Beverly]

Well with respect to Frank Capra's WWII series, the title's a presumptuous don't you think? After all we're talking royalties here not the the struggle of civilized human beings against the greatest threat to freedom the world had ever known.....unless of course, you consider most producers Nazis.....which SOME people might, BUT producers are NOT Nazis....they don't even wear the armbands.....well, at least III'VE never seen them wear it.....you know except in that movie The Producers when Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom wear them while talk Franz Liebkind into letting them produce his play Springtime for Hitler.....but they took them off when they went into the street.....other than that.....you know never.....that I can remember. :huh:

Edited December 12, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[Annie Wengenroth]

Is it wrong to laugh at the mental picture of producers wearing armbands?

 

...I love that movie.

 

When I saw the title of the video it made me want to blast Sham 69's "If The Kids Are United" and start a TOTALLY SICK MOSH PIT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE UNION OFFICE! IT SOUNDS SO XHARDCOREX! But that's just me and my anarchist roots. :P

 

Anyway, I kinda feel like any information is better than people being left in the dark, and even though the title's a little over the top, at least someone out there tried to explain things in a way that made sense to my parents, who couldn't understand why I wanted to borrow $1000 just in case....

[James Steven Beverly]

In NYC, 1000 bucks should last you till about 6:25PM tomorrow afternoon, better ask for 2 grand and tell them you may have to move back home for a while.....I'd say be prepared to live in your car but parking would probably run more than your rent! 'Course living in your car is still better that Jersey. :rolleyes:

[Kirsty Stark]

Thanks for posting this, Annie. It's good to have more of an understanding of the issues involved.

 

Hopefully things are resolved soon, and none of you are too greatly affected in the meantime.

[Paul Maibaum ASC]

As a Local 600 member if the WGA is picketing your workplace, the "no-strike clause" in our contract means that you are bound by the contract to report for work or suffer whatever consequences the employer deigns fit. However, you can march all day long in front of Rockefeller Center (or wherever they're picketing in NYC) in support of the WGA if it doesn't prevent you from carrying out your duties on a Local 600 job.

[John Sprung]

Well with respect to Frank Capra's WWII series, the title's a presumptuous don't you think? After all we're talking royalties here not the the struggle of civilized human beings against the greatest threat to freedom the world had ever known.....

After all these years, the expedient propaganda of the time still obscures the reality of WWII. It wasn't a pure moral "crusade". It was an uncomfortable and morally ambiguous alliance with one evil to secure the defeat of another. Did it save democracy? Yes. But to an even greater extent, it saved communism. I don't think we can with any clear certainty pick which of them was the greatest evil or the greatest threat to freedom.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Annie Wengenroth]

Thank you for clearing that up, Paul. I swear to god I'm still reading all the paperwork they gave me when I first joined 600! It sure does make a nice centerpiece on my coffee table though.

 

I must admit, by the way, that I DID consider trying to find a really cheap apartment in Jersey City and commuting to jobs via the PATH train. Yes. I was in fact, out of my mind. :D

[James Steven Beverly]

After all these years, the expedient propaganda of the time still obscures the reality of WWII. It wasn't a pure moral "crusade". It was an uncomfortable and morally ambiguous alliance with one evil to secure the defeat of another. Did it save democracy? Yes. But to an even greater extent, it saved communism. I don't think we can with any clear certainty pick which of them was the greatest evil or the greatest threat to freedom.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

 

Hitler broke his non-aggression pact with Stalin basically because Goering failed to destroy British air power due to British radar and intelligence superiority, which would have cleared the way for an invasion of England. This left Hitler, who had based his regime on aggression and conquest with a political problem. In order to keep his regime's economy solvent (he had simply printed money to end Germany's catastrophic depression with no backing what so every) and keep the German's minds off of their loss of civil liberties and internal corruption, he needed to keep the war going to bolster patriotism. He also didn't trust Stalin with good reason and so Operation Barbarossa was implemented. Once the Communists were attacked, it would have been foolish for the Allies to not have taken advantage of their alliance to hasten Hitler's demise which at the time was the immediate threat. One also has to remember that Stalin's purges, political imprisonments which lead to many deaths and out and out political and paranoia motivated executions were largely an internal Soviet affair that did not effect the West until after the traitors how had worked on the bomb in some sick, misguided attempt at personally balancing world power gave it to the Communists. The US, prior to WWII was in it's own deep internal crisis trying to dig it's self out of the Great Depression and had very little time for foreign entanglements especially after the debacle of the league of Nations that let the the second World War it the first place. England and France's unreasonable war reparations coupled with a world depression after the collapse of the Dollar was what allowed Hitler to gain power in the first place. Once Japan attacked and America was drawn into the war, the stage was already set. In point of fact, had Hitler NOT attacked Russia, he may have very well been able to force England into a peace treaty and the US would have focused it's attentions on Japan, leaving Hitler's empire in Europe in tacked.

 

If his regime had not collapsed economically, which it may well have not sense he them would have had all the resources of Europe at his disposal, he would have gathered his strength, developed his advanced weaponry and possibly even developed the bomb parallel to the US (though the heavy water experiments, by many scientist's account, would most likely never have succeeded in producing a sustained reaction so although possible it's unlikely). In any event it is unlikely the US would have gone to war with Germany under those circumstances until we had defeated Japan which would have led to a confrontation with a much stronger Nazified Europe later that would have no doubt been a nuclear one and my guess, given the Nazi mentality, not a cold war. Hitler HAD to be defeated and we HAD to have Russian help to do it, there was no choice. Once he was defeated and the Russians had the bomb, a shooting war was out of the question, so we fought a cold war for 40 years to defeat that threat to humanity. Hitler was responsible for 10 million deaths, Stalin was responsible for 20 million deaths, we eventually defeated both of their regimes, I find nothing morally ambiguous about that, simple that we were only able to do what we could under the circumstances and apparently that was the right decision because their systems of governments are gone and we're still here. B)

[Mark Dunn]

I don't think we can with any clear certainty pick which of them was the greatest evil or the greatest threat to freedom.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

Well I can.

My country paid a very high price for victory and I would remind you that for over two years, we paid it alone.

Hiljacking the name of a series of films about the fight against a monstrous tyranny for this dubious middle-class spat between well-off people operating in a free market is a bit rich.

And yes, you have touched a raw nerve. You're only free to express such a daft opinion because England kept Hitler at bay while America thought about it.

[Hal Smith]

........... Did it save democracy? Yes. But to an even greater extent, it saved communism.............

For another forty years. Don't count the Chinese as Communist, I don't know what the heck they are but Communists? No for certain. They don't even have what few benefits the Russians had under Communism like guaranteed health care.

[Guest]

Well I can.

My country paid a very high price for victory and I would remind you that for over two years, we paid it alone.

Hiljacking the name of a series of films about the fight against a monstrous tyranny for this dubious middle-class spat between well-off people operating in a free market is a bit rich.

And yes, you have touched a raw nerve. You're only free to express such a daft opinion because England kept Hitler at bay while America thought about it.

 

Ahhh excuse me buddy..."we paid it alone." Yeah right!! Canada was there with the UK from the first day of WWII, so where a lot of other countries. Pilots from all over the globe flew in the Battle Of Britain, including 10 American pilots.

 

England did NOT as many UK folk believe these days stand up to Hitler alone for two years. Canada paid a very high price for early entry into the war as well. Where do you think the pilots trained for the RAF? Canada. What country took in the UKs children? Canada. What navy kept the war supplies flowing to the UK from North America?, Canada. What country was to take in Churchill if the NAZIS invaded? Canada.

 

The list goes on and on and on.

 

R,

[John Sprung]

Well I can.

My country paid a very high price for victory and I would remind you that for over two years, we paid it alone.

Hiljacking the name of a series of films about the fight against a monstrous tyranny for this dubious middle-class spat between well-off people operating in a free market is a bit rich.

And yes, you have touched a raw nerve. You're only free to express such a daft opinion because England kept Hitler at bay while America thought about it.

Mark,

 

I agree with every word of your post except "daft".

 

The crimes of Hitler are well documented, and the evidence is well preserved. His European empire was overrun in less than a year. The Nazis made some attempts to destroy evidence, for instance Sobibor and Treblinka. But it's not likely that they were successful in concealing much.

 

The crimes of Stalin were less centralized, and carried out over a much longer time, mostly without the pressure of a simultaneous war. The huge slave labor construction projects of the 1930's, the purges, the gulags that outlived him by decades -- the calculus of misery and death may tip to Stalin. Certainly the communists were much better at secrecy, concealment, and destruction of evidence. It may be decades more before a thorough investigation becomes politically acceptable in the lands where the evidence exists.

 

I don't deny the evil of Hitler. It's just that I don't necessarily award him the championship.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Mark Dunn]

Ahhh excuse me buddy..."we paid it alone." Yeah right!! Canada was there with the UK from the first day of WWII, so where a lot of other countries. Pilots from all over the globe flew in the Battle Of Britain, including 10 American pilots.

 

England did NOT as many UK folk believe these days stand up to Hitler alone for two years. Canada paid a very high price for early entry into the war as well. Where do you think the pilots trained for the RAF? Canada. What country took in the UKs children? Canada. What navy kept the war supplies flowing to the UK from North America?, Canada. What country was to take in Churchill if the NAZIS invaded? Canada.

 

The list goes on and on and on.

 

R,

I was bound to upset someone, shooting from the hip like that, and I'm sorry.

Of course we couldn't have survived without the Dominions, Empire and Commonwealth. I'm well aware of their contribution. I even know about the Eagle Squadrons. I should have taken more careful aim at the notion that we had a choice between Hitler and Stalin.

[John Sprung]

For another forty years. Don't count the Chinese as Communist, I don't know what the heck they are but Communists? No for certain.

Yup. Fascism ended with a cut, communism with a fade out that's almost complete.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Sprung]

I should have taken more careful aim at the notion that we had a choice between Hitler and Stalin.

Indeed we didn't have that choice. It was Hitler who made the choice for us.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Sprung]

Hitler broke his non-aggression pact with Stalin basically because ....

James,

 

There's a lot here, and we're getting way off topic. Let me just suggest that you look for a book by Richard Overy, "Why the Allies Won" (W.W. Norton, 1995). It's a real good look at the aspects of the war that appear to interest you.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[James Steven Beverly]

I was bound to upset someone, shooting from the hip like that, and I'm sorry.

Of course we couldn't have survived without the Dominions, Empire and Commonwealth. I'm well aware of their contribution. I even know about the Eagle Squadrons. I should have taken more careful aim at the notion that we had a choice between Hitler and Stalin.

 

Let's not forget the American "Lend/Lease" program which kept arms and supplies flowing to England through out the war. Had America not dedicated herself to giving England the tools to carry on the struggle, she would have surely fell to Nazi aggression and as much as England suffered, which was greatly, The French and Poles suffering was unimaginable, even more so was Russian territory while it was in Nazi hands. Stalingrad was perhaps the most nightmarish place on Earth during the siege. Also the greatest casualty rate of any service during the war was suffered by American bomber crews flying sorties over Germany. Literally 1 in 3 men were killed in these raids to end Nazi tyranny, a horrible price to pay fro freedom, but worth every sacrificed. They truly were "The Greatest Generation."

[Guest]

"They truly were "The Greatest Generation."

 

They also made black people sit in the back of the bus, and set German shepherds & fire hoses on them. Refused to allow women to have any job other than teacher, nurse, or secretary. They are also the generation that sat out the first two years of WWII. The war started in 39 not 41 :blink:

 

They did a good job during WWII but there was a dark side that people seem to have forgotten.

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

They're not the only ones, guy, look at us. Besides, they were the ones that started true civil rights reform and integration with the Tuskegee Airmen, the eventual integration of the military. The women's movement had it's seeds in the Rosie the Riveters who kept American industry alive and producing, freeing up most of the male population to fight Nazi tyranny.

 

After WWI was it any wonder Americans were not in any hurry to involve themselves in another all out European war? The pettiness shown by the League of Nations destroyed American faith in Europe's sense of honor and duty and as I said before lead to WWII. Also let us not forget that if Chamberlain, Briton and France had drawn a line in the sand with the annexation of Austria and not tolerated and in many cases supported the Nazi regime and crushed Hitler in the very beginning, they wouldn't have had to fight a prolonged devastating war.

 

They were human not infallible and they had human weekness, stupidity, bigotry and short comings but what they did saved humanity from it's self and brought about the world we know today and for that we owe them our everlasting respect and gratitude.

Edited December 14, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[Annie Wengenroth]

...Um...so anyway....

[Guest]

"After WWI was it any wonder Americans were not in any hurry to involve themselves in another all out European war? "

 

Ahhhh, a lot of countries DID hurry to involve themselves in another all out European war.

 

All your points are fine and valid. What makes non Americans irate is the idea that Americans claim to have "won" WWII. America should get credit of course but only for the four years it actually fought. The USA missed the firt two years while other countries, like Canada, fought in all six.

 

The USA jumped into Vietnam and Iraq quite quickly, and look how well that worked out. The US just needs to learn which wars to join right away, and which ones to skip all together. WWI was even more of a "sit out" but we won't start that one.

 

Any way Annie, this is all your fault. You had to use a war reference in your thread. That's the last thing you want to do in a forum that is 90% male :D

 

I agree with the guy that said utilizing the term "Why We Fight" for the WGA strike is a bit of a joke. There is no correlation between fighting the NAZIS and a Jay Leno writer who already makes $500,000.00 a year missing out on internet royalties of $20,000.00 a year.

 

R,

[Mark Dunn]

That's what I was aiming at. Being British I was rather roundabout about it. Fortunately my rather more direct Canadian ally came to my aid. Even though I had taken his contribution somewhat for granted.

[James Steven Beverly]

"After WWI was it any wonder Americans were not in any hurry to involve themselves in another all out European war? "

 

Ahhhh, a lot of countries DID hurry to involve themselves in another all out European war.

 

All your points are fine and valid. What makes non Americans irate is the idea that Americans claim to have "won" WWII. America should get credit of course but only for the four years it actually fought. The USA missed the firt two years while other countries, like Canada, fought in all six.

 

The USA jumped into Vietnam and Iraq quite quickly, and look how well that worked out. The US just needs to learn which wars to join right away, and which ones to skip all together. WWI was even more of a "sit out" but we won't start that one.

 

Any way Annie, this is all your fault. You had to use a war reference in your thread. That's the last thing you want to do in a forum that is 90% male :D

 

I agree with the guy that said utilizing the term "Why We Fight" for the WGA strike is a bit of a joke. There is no correlation between fighting the NAZIS and a Jay Leno writer who already makes $500,000.00 a year missing out on internet royalties of $20,000.00 a year.

 

R,

 

Yes, but also remember that the US had formed the League of Nations in the noble attempt to END all wars. We had always been an isolationist nation up till WWI and after our attempts to end war failed due to European pettiness after the first world war, we felt betrayed and Americans were not willing to send our sons off to fight and die another European war that would end in revenge.

 

As for winning WWII, Americans were the ones who gained air superiority, who defeated Italy and pushed the Germans back and who planned and implemented D-Day. The Canadians hit Juno, the British hit Sword but WE hit Omaha,head on and took it! Patton's 3rd army took more enemy held territory faster than any military unit in history. America did not win the war on her own but we did create a second, devastating front that combine with the Russians pushed the Nazis back into Germany and destroyed them.

 

As for Vietnam, it was a war, like Korea, to contain Communism. Our problem was we weren't fighting the same war as the Vietnamese. We were fighting a war against Communism and they were fighting a civil war. We were right to fight communist aggression but wrong to support a corrupt regime to do so. Had Kennedy lived, by his statements about the South Vietnamese government prior to his assassination, I doubt if we would have sent in ground troops (which in MY opinion is the only credible motive for an assassination conspiracy if one ever existed). Iraq was a politically motivated bungled attempt to create a stable Arabic pro-western state in the heart of the the Islamic world that was clouded by lies and deceit in order to achieve that goal, poorly planned and executed by an ill informed and inadequate force under the supervision of unresponsive and arrogant leadership. It undermined the gains in defeating terrorism made in Afghanistan. The overall goals in these wars were noble, not withstanding the executive office during both wars. In the case of defeating communism despite the administrations of Johnson and Nixon, we did eventually succeed, in the case of defeating Islamic terrorists, despite the setbacks caused by the Executive office, we have made major strides forward and will also eventually win that goal as well. And remember Americans jumped into Iraq because Bush played the WMD card right after 9/11 and in 1964 when the Vietnam war started, we had JUST gone though the Cuban Missile Crisis a year and a half earlier. We had also had Cuba become a communist country a mere 5 years earlier in 1959 and had 10 years earlier stalemated in an armistice ( the Korean war has never officially ended) , a bloody war with the Communist Chinese in Korea. Both of these conflicts were responses, in the eyes of the American people to clear and very real threats to the United States, so if we jumped in rather quickly, it's probably understandable. And you're right not to want to discuss America's reluctence to enter WWI because it's an argument you would loose. :D

Edited December 15, 2007 by James Steven Beverly

[Guest]

"in the case of defeating Islamic terrorists, despite the setbacks caused by the Executive office, we have made major strides forward and will also eventually win that goal as well."

 

I hope you do, we all want those f#*#$@ dead.

 

Except this time it won't be done by military force, and this is where America is making the mistake. People in the USA need to ask "why do they hate us?" And if you say, "they hate us because of our freedom" you deserve a punch on the nose.

 

America can fight the islamic terrorists for 500 years with bullets and you'll never win. Harry Reid already proclaimed the Iraq war, "lost." It will go into the lost column along with Vietnam.

 

"The Canadians hit Juno, the British hit Sword but WE hit Omaha,head on and took it!"

 

Yeah big deal, the Canadians and British both took their beaches. Canadian forces advanced the farthest on D-Day, look it up. This is from Wikipedia, an outside source:

 

"By the end of D-Day the 3rd Canadian Division had penetrated farther into France than any other Allied force,"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_Beach

 

Actually the US landing on Omaha beach was a military disaster. First the US launched their amphibious tanks too soon and they all sank. This meant the US had no heavy armour on the beach. Second, the USA refused to use the flail tank in the attack because they thought it was an absurd British invention. It saved countless lives at Juno & Sword.

 

"And you're right not to want to discuss America's reluctence to enter WWI because it's an argument you would loose."

 

I assume you are joking by the smiley face. I left it out because it's even more of a ridiculous story than Iraq.

 

R,