Digital vs Film as it stands right now

[Keith Walters]

Dear Cinematographers,

 

Please pardon me if I sound too foolish to ask such a question. I am very new to film making. I hope if some one can explain me what RED and latitude mean, which I see in your discussions here. I also hope if some one could help me with composition of a shot and explain how the blue/green croma key works

 

Thanks

Tell us a bit about your project, and where are you located?

You sound like you should be asking at www.reduser.net since that forum is full of people like you.

[Keith Walters]

Mean while the USA with its 300 million people has one ratings board for the entire country.

 

R,

I just find that so impossible to believe.

Only ONE board for 300 million people!!!

And this, the wealthiest and most technologically advanced country in the world.

You just wouldn't think such a thing was possible in this day and age.

It's a disgrace. (Shakes head sadly)

Only ONE board in the entire country....

[K Borowski]

I just find that so impossible to believe.

Only ONE board for 300 million people!!!

And this, the wealthiest and most technologically advanced country in the world.

You just wouldn't think such a thing was possible in this day and age.

It's a disgrace. (Shakes head sadly)

Only ONE board in the entire country....

 

Who says we are the most technologically advanced country in the world anymore? Maybe in the '60s and '70s.

 

I'd have to say that, nowadays, that honor would probably befall a small country like Japan, or maybe a small oil-rich country in the middle east.

 

The United States still has the largest GNP, but is there even a single brand of computer that is actually manufactured here? Sure, we innovate some of this stuff, but we don't even have the industrial base to build it anymore.

 

There's talk of beginning to build new nuclear reactors here now that we're in a new energy crisis. We don't have the industrial base to cast the reactor vessels anymore because of all the dumping of steel here that decimated our steel industry in the '90s.

 

So we have to have Japanese steel companies cast reactor chambers if we are to build nuclear plants because we are no longer capable of doing it ourselves.

[John Holland]

Karl same thing here in this "Mickey Mouse " country will have no manufacturing base anymore followed the US for last 20 years , now its gone tits up and we are in poop even more than you over there . anyway this is not Digital or Fi :( lm .

[K Borowski]

Karl same thing here in this "Mickey Mouse " country will have no manufacturing base anymore followed the US for last 20 years , now its gone tits up and we are in poop even more than you over there . anyway this is not Digital or Fi :( lm .

 

Actually, it is. . .

 

One of the reasons I am so vehemently against digital, is that it outsources yet another sector of enterprise to the electronics companies to gobble up. Basically every craft, every art, every manufacturing enterprise in this country cannot be done now without some sort of digital aid, except for photography (and even here you have digital editing, though this is not a bad thing). I don't want this industry to become like the music industry, that basically you HAVE to record digitally because no one makes the analog 2" tape anymore.

 

Shooting film isn't just a matter of aesthetic, it's a matter of principle too. I'm not saying that digital doesn't have it's place, I'm saying that film *does have* its place, and it is important that future filmmakers have a CHOICE of several different media to work with.

 

I don't understand all the hype behind digital either, it's going to take over a fair share of the market no matter what! It doesn't need a hoard of volunteer supporters to help it along.

[John Holland]

Apart from the "digital" we are talking about dont you find that just about anything you see advertised or buy has the tag digital stuck on it ?? apart from food ,so far .

[K Borowski]

Apart from the "digital" we are talking about dont you find that just about anything you see advertised or buy has the tag digital stuck on it ?? apart from food ,so far .

 

Yes, and it drives me crazy. . .

 

Even Film as advertised as digital: I.e. it's easier to scan, high-resolution, "High Definition" as the former Royal 400 Kodak C-41 film has been renamed. Kodak's even marketed a disposable camera as "+ Digital" even though you can have any film from any camera scanned! They've scared a lot of traditional printing photographers by marketing their RA-4 color paper as "optimized for digital exposure" and not making it clear that it's still perfectly fine for optical printing.

 

I'm not bothered by marketing to the lowest common denominator if it helps them sell more film, but I'm very bothered by their not mentioning the traditional properties have not been compromised, and even more bothered when they are compromised.

 

John, your beloved Fuji's base color has been all over the place. I had a Fuji still negative that had a crazy filter pack, like printing from a slide. Normally with subtractive printing you only use yellow and magenta filters. This damned Fuji neg used only magenta and cyan!

 

So yeah, it is bothersome, like in the '04 Olympics when they were knocking some quality of 16mm footage shot from an olympics in the '60s; it wasn't the film's fault, it was the terrible '60s video transfer!

[John Holland]

Karl " Beloved" is a bit OTT but i would have said that about Agfa XT320 .

[Guest Glen Alexander]

Karl " Beloved" is a bit OTT but i would have said that about Agfa XT320 .

 

 

or the now demised Kodak HIE.......

[Paul Bruening]

Technically they actually do a 3K scan...twice....and they offset the scanner between each scan. And yes. They actually physically offset the scanner..not electronically. It moves between scans.

 

jb

 

I did not know that. I assumed incorrectly that they were using one of Kodak's 22Mp sensors or something of that sort to get an image that big.

 

WTF. My DIY DI rig has a single 5K wide sensor. Since it stores the color channels separately as RAW files, it maths-out into 6K+, 16bit/c TIFFS. I'm feeling better and better about the decisions that went into this rig.

[Sam Wells]

Shooting film isn't just a matter of aesthetic, it's a matter of principle too. I'm not saying that digital doesn't have it's place, I'm saying that film *does have* its place, and it is important that future filmmakers have a CHOICE of several different media to work with.

 

Meaning "You should have a choice but mine is the principled choice" ?

 

-Sam

[Paul Bruening]

Technically they actually do a 3K scan...twice....and they offset the scanner between each scan. And yes. They actually physically offset the scanner..not electronically. It moves between scans.

 

jb

 

Come to think of it, I could do the same kind of thing. If I pointed two DSLRs through a prism and on their sides, I could get an easy 6K+ X 5K image. With RAW-to-TIFF math the files would come out to close to the fabled 8K wide scan. Software to match-and-patch already exists. Hmmm, this is interesting.

[K Borowski]

Meaning "You should have a choice but mine is the principled choice" ?

 

-Sam

 

No, not at all. I am not saying that mine is the principled choice, rather that *having* a choice is principled, having a single, default route is not.

[Guest Glen Alexander]

<It-ain't-alf-hot-Mum type Indian accent>

We "British" have standards that must be maintained!

</accent>

Why do you think all my posts end with a Sydney weather report. Go on, take a stab.

 

 

Where's Carl Brighton's humor when you need it?

 

Whose one sig still makes me laugh.

paraphasing

"...

Carl "if you don't agree with me, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground" Brighton .."

 

Post #221700

Post #219506

Post #214061

[Paul Bruening]

Boy, howdy. This thread evolved from RED into "What I'm pissed about."

 

Well, I'm pissed about Velveeta. Sure, it's okay for dips and the like. But, can it really replace cheddar? C'mon!

[John Holland]

Velveeta !! is that a Fuji stock name used in the US. ?

[Paul Bruening]

Velveeta !! is that a Fuji stock name used in the US. ?

 

Hey John,

 

It's the Spam of cheeses. For that matter, I'm pissed about Spam. Can Spam really replace Steak? C'mon!

 

Spam? It's the video of film. Can video really replace film? C'mon!

[Paul Bruening]

You know, John. I was so intent on rushing into my smart-ass Velveeta/Spam metaphor of the dig-ac vs film fight that I didn't even think about whether you have Velveeta in the UK. I know you have Spam because of Monty Python, "Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam. Lovely Spam, wonderful Spam."

[DJ Joofa]

Lattitude is the range between the lightest whites and the darkest blacks.

 

Actually what you are describing would be the "tonal range" (for the lack of a better word) of an image, and latitude will be the compliment of this number. I.e.,

 

Dynamic range = tonal range + latitude.

 

Where latitude (measured in stops) will be number of stops between pitch black and darkest black in the acquired image + number of stops from the "whitest" white acquired in the image to the max white the camera can acquire.

 

I hope if some one can explain me what RED and latitude mean, which I see in your discussions here. I also hope if some

 

Dynamic range is the number of variations you can have in your signal from pitch black to max white. "Tonal range" is an important parameter and that is typically the range a cinematographer has in mind that the image should have. They may not want to use the full range of variation that is offered by a camera for a few reasons and one is mentioned below. Since, by definition, the full range (dynamic range) of a camera is typically more than the range one wants to have in an image, the left over space or room is called latitude -- it is only useful in the post production after acquiring an image to shift the tonal range up or down for a more pleasing image.

 

Please bear in mind that the normally the print film (the one that will somehow get to projection in a theater) has typically a smaller number of variations between black and white than the original camera negative. Another way to say the same thing is that the dynamic range of print film is less than camera negative. However, that is fine, because once a cinematographer has decided that which portion of the larger dynamic range offered by the camera negative to be printed to film (i.e., the tonal range), they should strive to keep that tonal range not exceed the capacity of the print film.

 

There are several reasons that the print film variation (or dynamic range) is less than the camera negative, and one important one is that in a theater / cinema there is always some flare present that tries to reduce the contrast of projected film, hence, in order to compensate for that fact the print film has higher contrast than the camera negative, and that also makes its available range of variation less than camera negative.

Edited June 25, 2008 by DJ Joofa

[John Holland]

Paul as far as know we dont have Velveeta in the UK but bet your bottom dollar it will arrive at some time . I will stick to my extra stong west country matured for ages cheese , but yes Spam is still alive and well .

[Tom Lowe]

Pfister's stated reason for scanning at 8K was because he felt that 4K was not enough for 35mm scope originated photography, and because the production could afford the best so why not.

 

This does not sound scientific AT ALL.

[Tom Lowe]

The Thin Red Line was the most boring piece of work since Manos: Hands of Fate.

 

May a thousand locusts take up residency in your undershorts.

[John Sprung]

Apart from the "digital" we are talking about dont you find that just about anything you see advertised or buy has the tag digital stuck on it ?? apart from food ,so far .

Now that gives me an idea -- You could do a version of alphabet soup, only with nothing but 1's and 0's. Cuts the inventory problem down from 26 items to 2.... ;-)

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Keith Walters]

Boy, howdy. This thread evolved from RED into "What I'm pissed about."

 

Well, I'm pissed about Velveeta. Sure, it's okay for dips and the like. But, can it really replace cheddar? C'mon!

Well, strangely enough, for some bizzare reason in Australia Velveeta is called "Kraft Cheddar"! The only explanation I can think of for how they can get away with such an outrageous misrepresentaiton is that it is some sort of "Grandfathered" trade mark left over from before the days of misleading advertising laws. :rolleyes:

 

Now I'm an aged cheese snob from wayback, and until recently I would have appoplexificated at such a Philistinic suggestion as using procesed cheese on anything.

 

The scales fell from my eyes when I saw an episode of Iron Chef some time back. (The original Japanese series, not those pathetic Yank efforts:-) Chen Kenichi (Iron Chef Chinese) was up against a chef who was renowned for his salad dressings based on a wide variety of expensive gourmet cheeses, and who had won a special medal from the French Ministry of - I don't know - Fancy Cooking with Cheese or something.

 

Anyway, Kenichi announced HE was also going to make a cheese sauce, but he pulled out what looked like a 3 kilogram block of processed cheese (With "PROCESSED CHEESE" in big letters on the wrapper, in case there was any doubt).

 

Well needless to say, Kenichi won!

 

And then I discovered that when you melt processed cheese it tastes pretty much indistinguishable from melted non-processed cheese, but has a much nicer texture and melts at a much lower temperature.

 

For breakfast I've recently been in the habit of making McDonalds style bacon&egg McMuffins. You toast the muffin, add a slice of processed cheese, the egg and bacon, and wrap it in greaseproof paper. After a minute or so the cheese turns into a nice saucy texture.

 

But I had to actually go and buy one from McDonalds to see what was in it, because for the life of me I could not figure out what was missing from the ones I made. But then when I tried "real" cheese, it wouldn't melt. You could grill it, but it came out sharp and intrusive. Eventually I tried some Kraft "Cheddar" in the individually wrapped slices, and that was that! Except that I've found that cheapo Generic branded cheese slices are actually more suitable.

[Keith Walters]

Paul as far as know we dont have Velveeta in the UK but bet your bottom dollar it will arrive at some time . I will stick to my extra stong west country matured for ages cheese , but yes Spam is still alive and well .

According to Wikipedia anyway, Velveeta was available in the UK for a while, but presumably was not a success.

 

I used to think Spam was revolting, but when my wife slices it and fries it in an egg and flour batter, it tastes wonderful.