James Martin Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hi everyone, I'm a student cinematographer studying in Ealing, at a digital only school. I don't mind the fact they're digital only, but I want to shoot something for myself on film so that I can at least say with confidence that I can do it, should anyone ask me. A friend of mine is looking to shoot something on 16mm and all I have is an old K3, which only accepts 100ft Daylight loads. I have found a few places that will give me good deals on film, but I want to shoot Super16 and in 400ft reels. I need to get a basic Super16 kit, but thus far the only rental houses I have spoken to either want lots of money or (if they have a free one) don't have it available for a long time. Is there anyone on here who is local that would be willing to help me for one day at some point in the future (probably a saturday or sunday) just so I can get to know A Super16 camera? You would be thanked in food and beverages! James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Hinkle RIP Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) It is a noble request, but you might possibly have better luck asking to borrow a cinematographer's car than you would borrowing their camera! There may be some kinds & brave souls out there, but I would not let it discourage you if you don't get any takers. If you are really wanting film experience (and not just fishing for free gear), learning to work with what you have available is important. It's great to work with top-notch gear, but you shouldn't feel like you need an expensive camera to do something. Definitely don't let that stop you from trying out some film. The K3 is capable of shooting a short, a cool music videos or whatever. Go to ebay and get some used 100' film for cheap. Definitely get some film and start shooting, though. Not sure also if you knew that you can get a cheap S-16 gate for the K3 that you can install yourself. http://www.k3camera.com/k3/krasnogorsk-3-super-16mm.php Edited February 2, 2009 by Jason Hinkle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 James, if your studying at a school or a uni with covered insurance you shouldn't find it that hard at all to find a camera at all, both Panavision and Arri have student/indie filmmakers Super 16 kits which they rent for super cheap - one of them doesn't even have a set price and will just charge you in proportion to your budget. Other rental houses will give you great deals or even let you loan it for free, providing you have insurance, which your school should! I know Aimimage (which has just merged with ICE) has quite a few Super 16 packages for sale, so maybe they would let you borrow one with some lenses. Of course, the co-operation of your school is vital here, they must provide all the necessary paperwork and guarantees. If you can't get insurance, contact Four Corners in East-London, they rent non-profit to the whole community and can provide insurance at 10% charge, obviously over-all this will be more expensive as their hire totals will be more. Otherwise, if you want confidence about shooting film, then sticking to a K3 or Bolex is fine, after all shooting film is shooting film, it doesn't matter weather your shooting Super 16 or Regular 16mm. Best of luck, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Martin Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks for the replies, guys. The main reason I want to try out a "proper" camera is because I have gotten some good deals on 400' rolls - so good I couldn't say no. My K3, obviously, only takes 100' stuff. My school can provide me with insurance etc etc etc... I had contacted ARRI a while ago but even then it was booked up for the next few hundred years. Will keep trying though, thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Cooper Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks for the replies, guys. The main reason I want to try out a "proper" camera is because I have gotten some good deals on 400' rolls - so good I couldn't say no. My K3, obviously, only takes 100' stuff.... Don't discount spooling down from 400ft cores onto 100ft spools yourself! Virtually all of the film I use has been bought cheap - which means 400ft unopened stock or <400ft recans. Brand new 100ft metal daylight loading spools and cans can be bought for a reasonable sum in the UK from Philip Rigby & Sons Ltd. Alternatively keep an eye on ebay as empty spools sometimes crop up (although often the bidding goes above the price for brand new!). I don't have rewinds, but do have a piece of wood with two metal pegs on it! The wood is painted to avoid dust. The pegs are a smooth fit for the 100ft spool, whilst the centre of the 400ft core of film has a spacer to increase the diameter up to 1". The core of film is placed on a disc of metal to support it whilst respooling, and both pegs have a washer to prevent the spools rubbing on the wooden base. In the dark it's a simple matter to spool 100ft of film off the core onto a spool, then off the spool onto a second spool (to put the perfs the right way around!). My bathroom doesn't have any windows, but does leak light around the door. I simply wait until night time, turn off all lights in the flat and retreat to the bathroom. I keep my body between the film and the door just to be on the safe side as well. I can't see any light leaks around the door, and have respooled 500asa filmstock in the past without problems. Respooling yourself does present the risk of introducing dust and dirt, but for my own projects it's a risk I'm prepared to take for the large financial saving. In practice I rarely seem to pick up dust, although it is obviously important to pay special attention to cleanliness! Best of luck, Ian. (PS: I ain't in London, and both my cameras are R16 - sorry!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 My school can provide me with insurance etc etc etc... I had contacted ARRI a while ago but even then it was booked up for the next few hundred years. Well then try Panavision, Take 2, Movie Tech, Aimimage etc.... You want to build up a professional relationship with theses rental houses so give them a call be courteous, if they tell you no, call the next... Otherwise Four Corners will definitely have an SRIII, SRII, SRI and XTR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 2, 2009 Premium Member Share Posted February 2, 2009 It's actually easier to get 35 gear for free in London. 16 is popular with the pros for the same reason it's popular with everyone else - it looks like film 'cos it is, but it's considerably cheaper in consumables. The upshot of this is that it often isn't considerably cheaper in any other way, so the saving isn't as large as you might think. With 35mm short ends in much more abundant supply (although still pathetic compared to somewhere like LA) the only real increase in cost is processing. And then you're shooting 35, so do that. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 It's actually easier to get 35 gear for free in London. 16 is popular with the pros for the same reason it's popular with everyone else - it looks like film 'cos it is, but it's considerably cheaper in consumables. Actually it seems things have changed a little in the last few months - many productions that would be shooting 16mm are now shooting on the Arri D21 and RED, so there is now an excess of Super 16 production gear in the market. Plus the rental houses have paid of their 16 gear years ago, so they see it as 'money for old rope' and are much happier to do deals with it. There are deals on 35 too, but then you need 35 lenses - which because of RED and pro-35 adapters are like hot-cakes. You can forget about getting deals on 35 lenses at the moment. Cheers, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Martin Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I have spoken to Panavision, who seem keen to help. They've offered me a S16 student package for a very reasonable price. My school has to set up an account with them but I am sure I can persuade them... Anyone have any experience talking with Take2? I sent them a couple of emails but thus far have had nowt back, but it could be because they are snowed out like many of us here in London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 A film school with no film. Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Hinkle RIP Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I have spoken to Panavision, who seem keen to help. They've offered me a S16 student package for a very reasonable price. nice work! I agree with the guys above, persistence is the key to no-budget shooting, and that's not just for gear but for locations, talent, food, etc. Since your school doesn't have film, I would assume you don't get free processing either - so you might want to start sweet-talking your local lab as well for a discount on processing and transfer :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Martin Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 The lab is up-next. Not wanting to bad-mouth my school - after all they do make a point of being digital only - it is only really me there who is interested in doing it "the traditional way". I'm attempting to fashion myself as a reasonably knowledgable and professional cinematographer and I have found that most modern pro kit is geared up "like the old film stuff worked" so I feel that by learning how "the old stuff" works, I can understand the logic behind the new stuff. I can also say "been there, done that" and buy the T-shirt. I try and make a point of NOT being a fanboy of Film/Digital, Sony/RED etc etc... and also avoid talking about anything I haven't personally used - when possible. It's increasingly hard these days. Anyone advise me if it's worth getting the telecine done to Digibeta instead of DV? I am assuming that it is, with the enhanced bandwidth of Digibeta over DV. It won't cost me extra to ingest either as I have free access (or rather, access for free) to a digibeta deck. If anyone else has any golden nuggets of advice, I'm always all ears. Good to have a fairly balanced community on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Martin Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Forgot to ask, what sort of prices am I looking at (or should I be looking at) for telecine/processing? I remember a while back being told about 12p/ft for process and 20p/ft for telecine... If that is right this is going to make film very expensive - I can rent out a full-on HDCAM kit for the cost of three/four rolls of film at that price! And it's supposed to be the cheaper alternative? :-S Am I missing something here? (I'm still gonna do it, by the way, just don't wanna be in any more debt than necessary) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Cooper Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Forgot to ask, what sort of prices am I looking at (or should I be looking at) for telecine/processing? I remember a while back being told about 12p/ft for process and 20p/ft for telecine... If that is right this is going to make film very expensive - I can rent out a full-on HDCAM kit for the cost of three/four rolls of film at that price! And it's supposed to be the cheaper alternative? :-S Am I missing something here? (I'm still gonna do it, by the way, just don't wanna be in any more debt than necessary) Best bet is to email a number of the labs and get their prices (and minimum order value/quantity) - as a student you may be able to get some form of discount. Not being eligible for discounts I've been paying around £80-£100 for 400ft process & Tk, excluding VAT. I've yet to find a lab that will handle less than 400ft (ok, iLab's minimum equates to 350ft - but that is nearly 400!) Edited February 2, 2009 by Ian Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 2, 2009 Premium Member Share Posted February 2, 2009 Anyone advise me if it's worth getting the telecine done to Digibeta instead of DV? I am assuming that it is, with the enhanced bandwidth of Digibeta over DV. It won't cost me extra to ingest either as I have free access (or rather, access for free) to a digibeta deck. You'll find it difficult to get anything else, so do that. Normally DV people end up getting it on digi, then dubbing to DV, which is both expensive and quality-sapping, so avoid doing it. What sort of system are you going to cut it on, and how will you patch it up to the digi deck? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Martin Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks for the replies guys. Ian: Which lab do you use? Phil: There is a post-house above my school which has a full-on AVID Media Composer Adrenaline setup and Final Cut aswell. The last test I performed on HDCAM, I ingested uncompressed HD into Final Cut then imported into AVID, worked like a charm. I doubt SD will be much trouble. The deck is connected however they have it, via HD-SDI (SD-SDI for Digi I guess...), straight to a Kona Capture card (via machine room jiggery pokery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Cooper Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Ian: Which lab do you use? PM sent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 3, 2009 Premium Member Share Posted February 3, 2009 ingested uncompressed HD into Final Cut then imported into AVID Do that then. But if you're going to shoot it on 16, why not find some slowish 16 and a decent set of lenses, and post it HD? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Hinkle RIP Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Anyone advise me if it's worth getting the telecine done to Digibeta instead of DV? Another option is to have the lab put it on an external hard drive. I recently had transferred aprox 50 minutes of footage to 10-bit uncompressed standard def ntsc which took up about 100Gb of space. I would like to do an HD transfer but as of yet I haven't had the budget to do that - which is a good example that we all have to make-do with what we can afford at times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Martin Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Do that then. But if you're going to shoot it on 16, why not find some slowish 16 and a decent set of lenses, and post it HD? P I would like to post it in HD, but I doubt that I could afford it. I suppose the great thing with film is that if what I shoot turns out wonderful and someone really likes it, then I can afford to get it scanned and re-do it in HD without having to reshoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Alderslade Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I would like to post it in HD, but I doubt that I could afford it. I suppose the great thing with film is that if what I shoot turns out wonderful and someone really likes it, then I can afford to get it scanned and re-do it in HD without having to reshoot! Yes if this is only for learning reasons you may find that going to HD is a little pricey and unnecessary - it will add more than a £100 + VAT for a 1000' of film. Many London labs aren't offering straight to Hard-drive as an economically advantageous option yet. The archetypal working method is often, have the transfer to DigiBeta or HDCam SR (HDCam is apperently already dead) with DVCAM or miniDV clone. Edit with the clone and then conform the DigiBeta/HDCam SR master later. And yes your right if it turns out good and you need an HD version you can rescan at a latter date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Burke Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I would like to post it in HD, but I doubt that I could afford it. I suppose the great thing with film is that if what I shoot turns out wonderful and someone really likes it, then I can afford to get it scanned and re-do it in HD without having to reshoot! Given the exchange rate, have you looked at labs in the US? How much film are you shooting. I am sure you could find a student deal that would include processing and at least a best light to hard drive as uncompressed 10 bit HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Martin Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 I am shooting 2000ft, I have gotten a decent offer of 0.21pence (30 cents or so) per foot for process and best-light to Digibeta. I would have thought shipping exposed negative via a courier to a lab I don't know isn't the best idea in the world? I know shipping film is done all the time, but I'm just a student here, is it really that much cheaper in the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 5, 2009 Premium Member Share Posted February 5, 2009 Until recently, if you were doing more than a couple of hours in transfer (and with 2000ft, you are), it was cheaper to fly to New York and have it done there. This was partially due to the exchange rate, which is no longer so much of a factor, and partially due to the fact that the rates are just so much lower. Having never personally supervised a telecine session in NY, I have no idea what the talent's like, but it may still be looking into this if on no basis other than that London transfer is so mindbendingly expensive. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hepburn Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Isn't Kodaks' Cinesite in England? http://www.cinesite.com/ If so, I would think they at least have a student rate and if you talk with a Kodak Rep there maybe even better. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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