Why Does Kodak Hate super8?

[Guest Trevor Swaim]

Why is it that every time someone expresses an interest in shooting a super8 feature they are dissuaded by a kodak rep? Shoot in 16mm, or 35mm hell why not 65mm. you would think that a rep from kodak would be working his butt off to get people to shoot in super8 instead of minidv. the general philosophy seems to be that video doesn't exist, if we just ignore it it doesn't exist. in the mean time i just finished shooting a feature with a dvx100 mainly because i was told that super8 wouldn't be a good enough format. I got news for you after seeing some vision2 100t (from pro8) that was transfered by flying spot in seattle, super8 would have been perfect. but the consensus from kodak seems to be clear if the only film that you can shoot is super8 then you are better off shooting video.

 

also on an aside pro8mm is now selling fuji reala and eterna in super8 500d and 500t respectivly.

[Alessandro Machi]

you would think that a rep from kodak would be working his butt off to get people to shoot in super8 instead of minidv. the general philosophy seems to be that video doesn't exist, if we just ignore it it doesn't exist.

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Wise beyond your years.

 

 

 

 

 

in the mean time i just finished shooting a feature with a dvx100 mainly because i was told that super8 wouldn't be a good enough format. I got news for you after seeing some vision2 100t (from pro8) that was transfered by flying spot in seattle, super8 would have been perfect. but the consensus from kodak seems to be clear if the only film that you can shoot is super8 then you are better off shooting video.

 

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I'm beginning to wonder, and worry, about Kodak.

 

Kodak figures you'll get experience from your DV shoot and then magically shoot film from then on. But if you had shot on 8mm, and liked what you saw, you'd be hooked to move up to 16mm or 35mm, by shooting on mini-dv, the odds are more stacked you'll be looking at HD instead.

 

Kodak already appears to be headed towards a planned obsolence approach to film.

[Scot McPhie]

I've actually had fantastic support from my local Kodak rep for shooting a feature in Super 8 - this is Leigh Christiansen in Brisbane - he stood beside me and encouraged me every step of the way - he organised me a discount on the purchase and then when I got hit with jittery carts he got it looked at by the manufacturers in France and finally got them to admit to the fault being their's. At the time this was the first time Kodak worldwide would admit to the fault so it was quite a major step forward in getting this problem fixed.

 

I think the problem with Kodak is the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing - and the decision makers at the top aren't in tune with what the Super 8 market needs (and there is such a thing!) Roger Evans in Texas was sounded out by a few Kodak people in a phone hook up a year or so ago about what the Super 8 market needs - but no idea if any of his suggestions were heeded.

 

Scot

[Guest Trevor Swaim]

I've actually had fantastic support from my local Kodak rep for shooting a feature in Super 8 - this is Leigh Christiansen in Brisbane - he stood beside me and encouraged me every step of the way - he organised me a discount on the purchase and then when I got hit with jittery carts he got it looked at by the manufacturers in France and finally got them to admit to the fault being their's. At the time this was the first time Kodak worldwide would admit to the fault so it was quite a major step forward in getting this problem fixed.

 

I think the problem with Kodak is the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing - and the decision makers at the top aren't in tune with what the Super 8 market needs (and there is such a thing!) Roger Evans in Texas was sounded out by a few Kodak people in a phone hook up a year or so ago about what the Super 8 market needs - but no idea if any of his suggestions were heeded.

 

Scot

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I'm glad to hear that someone gets support for super8 from kodak

 

Yes roger and his workprinters, the supermag 400 etc. are exectly what super8 needs (besides a modern well designed pro level camera) but everytime that something cool happens in the aftermarket it seems that we get a hit from kodak. examples no more kodachrome 25, no more ectachrome, no plans to offically sell vision2 100t, if we want real selection we have to deal with Pro8mm (don't get me started). why is it that i can't call up kodak and buy a 400' daylight reel for a supermag in a modern stock? or a standard cartridge for that matter. vision2 200t is available why no 100t.

 

I shot my first feature on video, and now i am waiting with baited breath for that new JVC PROHD (HDV) ENG camera. Thanks to Kodak I may never shoot a feature on film.

[Jason Maeda]

beyond the normal beurocratic nightmares common to big businesses like kodak, i've had nothing but good experiences with my super-8 needs, including some very generous hand-outs from steve garfinkle in nyc. also, i don't see any senior technical advisors from fuji answering all sorts of impossible questions like our own john pytlak does (on and off of this forum). actually, the more i write, the more i realize how helpful kodak has been to my career as an artist. now if they could just point me towards a reasonably priced spirit with a super-8 gate...

 

jk :ph34r:

[Nate Downes]

Please don't TALK to me about Fuji tech support!

[John Pytlak RIP]

It's not hate. It's Tough Love. ;)

 

In just the past year or so, Kodak has introduced four new films for the Super-8 format, with additional films to come:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/super8/f....4.10.4.4&lc=en

 

Does any other film manufacturer still offer any factory-packaged Super-8 films?

[Alessandro Machi]

It's not hate.  It's Tough Love.  ;)

 

In just the past year or so, Kodak has introduced four new films for the Super-8 format, with additional films to come:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/super8/f....4.10.4.4&lc=en

 

Does any other film manufacturer still offer any factory-packaged Super-8 films?

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True.

 

But Kodachrome really is the rock of Super-8 because it can look really good, but high quality processing is a must for K-40. Can Kodak make an effort to help someone on the West Coast (preferably LA) process Kodachrome 40?

[Guest Trevor Swaim]

I must say that john does a very good job on these forums, and i mean no disrespect to him at all! However it really does seem that super 8 is the red headed stepchild of 16 and 35mm. Its is a truly beautiful format in its own right and with personal, character driven stories the format can be superior to any other because of its unique look.

 

and no fuji doesn't sell super8 carts but they do sell single8 carts which they invented in the 60s. I'm not saying that people should boycott kodak or any such nonsense, but it seems as though in a few years 16mm will have very stiff competition from HD, 35mm will have competition from cameras like the genesis and other cameras that are beyond HD, but super8mm could still be a viable format because it embraces the grain and its distinctive look. I think that kodak should really get its finger on the pulse of the super8 film makers out there.

[Matt Pacini]

Why is it that every time someone expresses an interest in shooting a super8 feature they are dissuaded by a kodak rep? Shoot in 16mm, or 35mm..."

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Have you shot a feature on Super 8 and seen what it looks like projected on a big screen in a theater?

I have, and I literally sunk in my seat I was so embarrassed. There is a damn good reason they're trying to talk you out of it, and it's called; image quality.

 

I personally would like to still have Super 8 film stock available to me, so If you guys don't stop hyper-whining to Kodak in general, and John Plytak specifically, I'm gonna have to come over, give you a spanking, and put you to bed with no dinner!

 

Matt Pacini

[Alessandro Machi]

Too many variables in your statement Matt.

 

Did every shot in your film make you sink in your chair?

 

I've seen digitally projected Super-8 after it's been transferred to video and I've most definitely seen some very acceptable looking Super-8 mixed in with not so acceptable Super-8. It's up to the filmmaker to choose wisely.

[Anthony Schilling]

True.

 

But Kodachrome really is the rock of Super-8 because it can look really good, but high quality processing is a must for K-40.  Can Kodak make an effort to help someone on the West Coast (preferably LA) process Kodachrome 40?

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http://www.spectrafilmandvideo.com/Lab.html

 

 

Here is a new place that has K-40 listed.. although it may go to Dwayne's still. not only that.. E-6 is listed for S-8. Good sign. The 100D will be awsome, I hope they cut the 160T reversal as well. between that and the new negs, I'd say they have been doing quite a bit in the last year for S-8.

Edited March 23, 2005 by Skratch

[Guest Trevor Swaim]

Have you shot a feature on Super 8 and seen what it looks like projected on a big screen in a theater?

I have, and I literally sunk in my seat I was so embarrassed.  There is a damn good reason they're trying to talk you out of it, and it's called; image quality.

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no not my own feature, but i have seen several MiniDV to film transfers, "Open Water", "28 days later" I think they would have both looked better or at least as good in super8. If you substitute the video artifacts for grain you would be moving up in my interpritation. I have also seen several shorts at festivals on super8 that looked great. if you go into super8 expecting 16mm quality you are setting your self up for a fall.

 

I personally would like to still have Super 8 film stock available to me, so If you guys don't stop hyper-whining to Kodak in general, and John Plytak specifically, I'm gonna have to come over, give you a spanking, and put you to bed with no dinner!

 

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if nobody ever gave feedback then kodak would have probably discontinued super8 a long time ago. we certainly would not have the new negative stocks.

[Dan Salzmann]

Here in France labs and most TC suites turn their noses up at super8 seeing it as a headache and a student and/or amateur medium.

At least in the US when Oliver Stone uses super8 footage people seem to take super8 a bit more seriously.

The question most people ask is "Why super8 when you can shoot on miniDV and then treat it with Magic Bullet or other After Effects plug-ins to give it grain and jitter?"

[John Pytlak RIP]

If nobody ever gave feedback then kodak would have probably discontinued super8 a long time ago. we certainly would not have the new negative stocks.

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Feedback, suggestions, and constructive criticism are welcomed. :) But negativity and shrill/unfounded hyperbole (e.g., "Hate") leave a bad taste that doesn't help your cause. :(

[Alessandro Machi]

Feedback, suggestions, and constructive criticism are welcomed.  :)  But negativity and shrill/unfounded hyperbole (e.g., "Hate")  leave a bad taste that doesn't help your cause.  :(

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I would agree that hate is a strong word.

 

Probably could have called the topic, Why does Kodak berate Super-8...with supporting evidence being Kodak reps mentioning mini-dv when someone is intrigued about Super-8.

[Guest Ian Marks]

Righto - let's not forget to look at all that Kodak *is* doing for S8 shooters! And the cameras are cheap!

[John Pytlak RIP]

I would agree that hate is a strong word.

 

Probably could have called the topic, Why does Kodak berate Super-8...with supporting evidence being Kodak reps mentioning mini-dv when someone is intrigued about Super-8.

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Are you talking to the sales/technical reps, or just the clerical staff? Many Kodak people (e.g., Steve Garfinkel in NYC) are very enthusiastic about Super-8. And even those who feel Super-8 may not meet your quality expectations would suggest moving up to Super-16 rather than down to mini-dv. B)

[xoct]

In just the past year or so, Kodak has introduced four new films for the Super-8 format, with additional films to come...

 

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New stocks!?! Ooh! Do tell, John!

[John Pytlak RIP]

New stocks!?!  Ooh!  Do tell, John!

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Time will tell, I won't. ;)

[Guest Trevor Swaim]

here is the full deal i had access to a beaulieu 6008 and a mini disk recorder, i also had access to a DVX100 (non a) when i started asking around, both on the web and on the phone i was repeatedly told forget the super8 shoot mini dv. i did stress that i wanted a personal look to the film, as it was a in depth character study. I also stressed that the budget for super8 was not a problem but 16 was out (i would have to rent the camera and lenses etc). when i called kodak i was told point blank that if i couldn't shoot 16mm then i should shoot minidv as the quality of super8 was not acceptable for a feature film. I don't know who i was talking to, whether it was a customer service rep or what but I was floored. I took his advise and shot on the DVX. I was then able to see several shorts and a feature shot on super8 and was, to be honest pissed off. the look was exactly what i wanted. I have learned a lesson from it all though - always, always shoot your own test to make sure!

 

p.s. yes hate is a strong word, but i wanted to make sure that people took notice. sorry if i offended anyone.

[John Adolfi]

Here is a suggestion then John: Help us acheive the best possible picture on Kodachrome s-8 film. We need a Kodak created US based facillity for processing. Or 2 week max turn around at the Switzerland lab with you folks telling us publically loud and clear that it Switzerland IS now processing again and how to access them as apposed to Dwyanes. There seems to be a need for the 100D being manufactured by Kodak. Sounds good. What about this digital processing you spoke about last year where s-8 could look like 16mm and 35mm could look like 65mm. What's going on there?

[Robert Hughes]

"...when i called kodak i was told point blank that if i couldn't shoot 16mm then i should shoot minidv as the quality of super8 was not acceptable for a feature film."

 

They weren't disparaging S8, they were trying to save your production. Unless you are already a big name player in the movie biz, the likelihood of you securing funding or distribution for a feature shot in S8 is nil.

 

Even if your S8 footage is gorgeous, the film production chain is built around the 16 / 35mm standard formats. You could originate in any non-standard format - S8, 9.5, 17, 105mm, whatever - but if you want to get your film on a screen somewhere, eventually it has to return to a format that can be displayed. And that's where the canker gnaws. The optical blow-up costs from S8 to 16/35 alone will wipe out any savings you may have gained shooting the smaller format. A feature film originating in 16 or S16 would probably be cheaper than one shot in S8, and it would look better.

 

Not to say that SD video is a viable origination format either. Films like "Open Water" eat up tons of cash in the post production suite, trying to make the video images acceptable for projection on a big screen.

 

S8 can be beautiful, but it would be an expensive, roundabout path to the multiplex.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

I'm frankly interested in the new Ektachrome 100D, my only fear is that stock and processing costs will be very high (esp. the latter). However, many enthusiasts will enjoy the ability to home process using E-6 chem kits.

 

As I'm budgeting a TV show I even considered the idea of using Ekta 100D, if I could get good processing incl. pushes, have a good turnaround time with the telecine incl. layback to PAL and get reliable cameras for a 2 camera show I would consider it seriously over the DVX. The 2:30 running time per cart is pretty damn limiting though, staggering the loads might be a possibility.

[Anthony Schilling]

How were you presenting the film? My guess is digital projection based on your budget and sound sync. in that case digital projection sucks no matter what you shoot on. Besides, In this day and age with all the digital intermediary technology, theatrical screenings with prints just don't make sense for low budget films. DVD distribution on the other hand is the way to go. In that case, S-8 kicks the pants out of DV. DV only has about 3 stops of latatude, where color neg has 10 stops. Minidisc or DAT will give you better sound as well.